Thrall's Inability to Learn From History

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That was my original point. Even if Orcs -do- apologize, they don't seem to be the sort to do it half-baked. They have to settle their inner turmoil first, come to terms with it, accept it, redeem themselves in the eyes of their ancestors, people, and whatever force they follow, and -then- attempt to make reparations for their sins.

That's just my own speculation, mind, but we've never seen it for two reasons.
1) The Orcs of the First and Second Wars -still- seem to be trying to come to terms with what they did and redeeming themselves for it
2) Even those Orcs such as Saurfang who -did- come to terms and redeem themselves are incapable of making apology due to the resurfacing of war with the Alliance. Apologizing to your enemy would probably be viewed as a form of cowardice and weakness.
I agree, Bull. I don't see the orcs not apologizing as a bad thing in itself. Hard for other races to understand certainly, but they don't do it because they're bad people or because they're too proud.

I think they just don't perceive it as truly fixing anything. And I would agree with them. I don't really remember many times when someone saying sorry to me has truly made me feel better. Usually just letting time pass with them not repeating the offense is much more effective.


I feel the same (as a human being) - "sorry" may be okay for accidentally bumping into someone, etc. For actual offenses, for true wrongdoings "Sorry" feels trite. SHOW me you feel bad, either by doing something to make it right or by just leaving me the #$^% alone.

Now, whether the Orcs do honestly feel that way, I'm not sure. But I'm certain they do feel contrition.
Ferlion


(sorry, to avoid giant nesting problems I sometimes cut out the post such as above)

Two questions (honest ones, just for discussion's sake):

1. For those heroes, are their hero status dependent on those bad things, or are they heroes for other reasons? It's entirely possible (and can be seen even in RL human culture) sometimes heroes are given that moniker despite the fact that they had some serious flaws or had done some seriously bad things.

2. Eitrigg seems to have had that luxury - how many other Orcs do we know of that have had the opportunity to show some sort of contrition? The orcs aren't really in a position as a culture to do that en masse, are they? (because for the whole of WoW they've been fighting)
I think with the veneration of Ogrim and Grom...

For Thrall, he made them Horde heroes because of what they did after their acts in the wars. For Ogrim he was a hero because of what he taught Thrall, and because he was the one leading the liberation of the orcs from the camps at first. He died for that cause, to free his people so that they could redeem themselves.

Grom was a hero because he defeated the orcs' worst enemy, and in doing so freed them of the blood curse.

I think the problem is that Garrosh's generation of orcs misses these points. They view them as heroes for all they did except for drinking demon blood. They don't look at these guys' war careers and see monsters committing horrible acts. They focus on the part of them that were mighty warriors fighting worthy enemies.

Thrall and the older generation admires Ogrim and Grom for fixing the misdeeds of their past. Garrosh and the younger generation admires them for the misdeeds of their past as viewed in rose colored goggles.
Thrall and the older generation admires Ogrim and Grom for fixing the misdeeds of their past. Garrosh and the younger generation admires them for the misdeeds of their past as viewed in rose colored goggles.


Story on both sides of the fence, I think. The goggles, I mean, and viewing the past.
Thanks for the responses - in this case I'll admit that I'm not actually taking any side. I really don't know enough about it yet to make my own decision and I hesitate to try and make apologies for the orcs. I just want to understand :)
Which breeds nothing but trouble. If its not in their culture to apologize, how soon untill its not in their culture to feel bad about it?


The reason it's not in their culture to apologize is that they value actions over words. For them to apologize would seem just as meaningless to them, and the ones they were apologizing to, as Mel Gibson's did to the Jewish community.

An orc doesn't say sorry. An orc says, "Yeah, I @*!*ed up" and then starts fighting anything that would cause him/her to @*!* up like that again. To fall short, recognize it, and have the strength never to fall short again, is seen as being far more meaningful than falling short and begging for forgiveness.
Which breeds nothing but trouble. If its not in their culture to apologize, how soon untill its not in their culture to feel bad about it?


The reason it's not in their culture to apologize is that they value actions over words. For them to apologize would seem just as meaningless to them, and the ones they were apologizing to, as Mel Gibson's did to the Jewish community.

An orc doesn't say sorry. An orc says, "Yeah, I @*!*ed up" and then starts fighting anything that would cause him/her to @*!* up like that again. To fall short, recognize it, and have the strength never to fall short again, is seen as being far more meaningful than falling short and begging for forgiveness.


And I disagree.

To fall short, recognize it, have the strength to never fall short again, and to work towards righting the mistakes you made, even if its just in superficial ways, is what should be meaningful. Not just saying you wont do something again.

But, thats just my opinion.


Um... I think you misunderstood me. The whole point of my post was that Orcs value actions over words, and, therefor, prefer to work towards making themselves better so that they never fall short again, rather than just spouting some meaningless drivel.

Also, how do you propose one right their mistake, when their mistake was killing people they should never have laid a finger on? Bring them back from the dead? The Orcs don't try to pay people back, they try to pay things forward. They don't say 'sorry', they help kill your enemy.
Um... I think you misunderstood me. The whole point of my post was that Orcs value actions over words, and, therefor, prefer to work towards making themselves better so that they never fall short again, rather than just spouting some meaningless drivel.

Also, how do you propose one right their mistake, when their mistake was killing people they should never have laid a finger on? Bring them back from the dead? The Orcs don't try to pay people back, they try to pay things forward. They don't say 'sorry', they help kill your enemy.


See, I think Thrall had the right idea. You can't replace those loved ones and allies you lost. You can live to be greater than those people you took, and be the friends and allies of those you left bereft. Thrall tried to bring the Orcs and the Horde to become a respectable force that could join forces and be friends of the Alliance.

Just a shame that, for our own selfish needs of entertainment, these were doomed to failure.

I think this might be another reason people don't like Garrosh... he makes no attempt to rectify the mistakes of the past, and forgets them entirely, which isn't surprising since he isn't a witness to the first and second wars, or the aftermath of them.
I do have to say...

There's a bit of a difference between "Hey, I think it would be a good idea of you moved to another continent" and "Hey, I think it would be a good idea if you completely massacred the people you've been living in harmony with for centuries and drank this demon's blood".
That was my original point. Even if Orcs -do- apologize, they don't seem to be the sort to do it half-baked. They have to settle their inner turmoil first, come to terms with it, accept it, redeem themselves in the eyes of their ancestors, people, and whatever force they follow, and -then- attempt to make reparations for their sins.


I've always thought that, should things ever settle down enough that they get the chance (which will probably be never), if the Orcs really wanted to show contrition for the First and Second Wars they couldn't do better than pulling up the Path of Glory, sanctifying the bones and returning them to the Draenei for proper burial. It'd be a PR bonanza for them, would be great busywork for younger Orcs who have too much "BLOOD AND THUNDER" going on (I would challenge anyone to spend a month pulling up your predecessors' shame and not be humbled a bit by it), and it would take a helluva lot of the wind out the sails of the Daelin Proudmoores and Varian Wrynns of the world. And I say that as someone who likes Varian a lot.

Sadly...

Just a shame that, for our own selfish needs of entertainment, these were doomed to failure.


...is almost certainty true. "lol war in warcraft" and all.
It is possible (and maybe even probable) that the Orcs DONT feel like they have done anything wrong, even though they regret what they did. If they feel that since they were under the curse of the Demon Blood, and feel that the Fel Taint in their systems drove their actions and hands, then it also stands to reason that they would be somewhat suprised, or atleast angry, that humans and other races hold their actions against them.


We know that Thrall, at least, does not agree with that.

"To pretend it did not exist is to forget how dreadful the impact was. To make ourselves into victims, rather than claiming our participation in our own destruction. We chose this path, we orcs. We chose it right up until it was too late to turn back."
<Insert OP Post>

It's not so much that you're wrong, as far as possibilities go, but your argument depends an awful lot on the idea that Thrall should have had an innate suspicion of all things around him. That's not a good way to get along with people, or use his abilities which depend on trusting the elements.
More importantly though, you have to remember that those events took place in WC3, it was just an RTS back then, lore was rather low-priority, and pretty much all the lore you're referencing for being a good reason that Thrall's an idiot didn't exist until some time after WC3.
Trying to force the lore to fit actions taken back when the lore wasn't there to frame them is a frustrating and rather pointless task, as they were never meant to be thought of with that information as context. Lore after WC3 was made for WoW, not WC3. Only Blizzard can make it fit, since they are the ones who can retcon events to fit the lore, and vice-versa.
If I recall, Doomhammer and Durotan were the first point of contact, something that was vital to the invasion as they remembered the ways in or something.

In the Rise of the Horde, it states that the Draenei met with each Orc clan "now and then" to trade tools, weapons, and decorative items for pelts, blankets, and raw materials. The exchanges lasted a few hours and were an "occasion of interest" among the clans. Relations were "cordial but aloof".

Durotan also states to Velen that it was two-hundred summers ago that the Draenei came.

Edited for correction: "It was over two-hundred summers ago that your people came here."

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