Can we get a pvp dummy?

Arenas
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i think they should be two completely different animals entirely.

All PVP based stats should simply, and only be PVP power. 80 strength +30 PVP power should read: 110 PVP power.

To compensate for the essential uselessness in PVE with no real stats, PVErs should have absolutely no resil in PVP. Making PVE gear just as useless.

Sure, this would polarize a lot of "what-if" scenarios. But at the end of the day, you're trying to maximize in both worlds - so it really makes no difference. A seasoned PVPer will clearly want the best gear PVP can offer; the same can be said with a seasoned Raider.

You wouldn't bring PVP gear to a guild raid with the expectation to contribute efficiently and maximally the same way you shouldn't be able to maximize as well as you can (currently) with PVE gear in a PVP setting.

This does leave the "well i shouldn't be severely punished for wanting to do a little pvp when i'm not pveing" and i'd have to say otherwise, because you're just as much a participant in the overall success and direction of a PVP battle - much in the same way you wouldn't bring kids in 400 "i just got to pandaland" to participate in actual, real raiding.

I'm honestly sick of the contradictory, the hypocrisy and the double standards PVErs have in regards to PVP equality when PVErs are the poster child for "player segregation 101". If your gear doesn't match a certain criteria, you aren't coming...it's simple as that.

So let's bring that philosophy full circle. No PVP gear = get wrecked.
No PVE gear = get dropped.


I have very little PVP experience on any of my toons, with one notable exception. I was on Arthas, a PVP realm for more than a year.

The reason for having to balance the gear so wearing one set in the opposite environment isn't a total handicap is the existence of PVP realms and World PVP.

You shouldn't be a free HK because you are out questing in your PVE gear. A PVP geared player should have the gear advantage out in the world, but not the ROFL-stomp you advise.

On the flip-side, how is a PVPer suppose to do any meaningful PVE? You can't get PVE gear without doing PVE, and you suggest that they not be able to contribute in the slightest because of getting started in PVP gear.
Will it include two stealthed PvP dummies just to the side of it that will stunlock and tear you to pieces as soon as you hit it?

Or will it be like a Cataclysm shaman dummy that drops a totem, runs 3 feet, and dies?
At least as an "interrupt" dummy, that would allow casters to practice "fake casting" without needing a duel partner to waste time with.
I really like the idea behind that and it's similar to what I suggested previously. Why not something like this (ROUGH numbers):

PvP Item A has 70 agi/str/int + 30 PvP Power
PvE Item A has 100 agi/str/int
PvP power does not function in PvE "instances", but functions everywhere else.
1 PvP Power = 1 agi/str/int in the open world
1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int inside PvP instances

That way both gear types are basically equal in the open world and equally handicapped in the respective instances. I see no reason that PvP gear should be weaker in the open world against mobs. Gear differences are mainly been for instances anyway.


I didn't read any of that, i just love your name. Bring dem ambalamps
I really like the idea behind that and it's similar to what I suggested previously. Why not something like this (ROUGH numbers):

PvP Item A has 70 agi/str/int + 30 PvP Power
PvE Item A has 100 agi/str/int
PvP power does not function in PvE "instances", but functions everywhere else.
1 PvP Power = 1 agi/str/int in the open world
1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int inside PvP instances

That way both gear types are basically equal in the open world and equally handicapped in the respective instances. I see no reason that PvP gear should be weaker in the open world against mobs. Gear differences are mainly been for instances anyway.
I like this idea a lot. The only thing that concerns me about the blue posts hypothetical numbers/situation is, unless I'm missing something, or something is just going over my head, PvE gear will still be the go-to gear in wPvP.

@OP great suggestion btw. I hope Blizz implements it!
If you guys are doing as much number tinkering as you claim I don't know why you wouldn't take this opportunity to rethink pvp power altogether

I'm all for differentiating gear but I find it pretty silly that a stat called "pvp power" exists at all.


We are planning to revisit PvP Power in Warlords. Our current thinking is that, instead of a flat percentage increase to your normal damage/healing in PvP (as it is currently), it'll be a bonus amount of your spec's primary stat (Strength, Agility, or Intellect).

Here's an example with some completely made-up numbers: lets say a piece of gear has 80 Strength and 30 PvP Power on it. In a PvP environment, that would total out to be 110 Strength. Meanwhile, an equivalent piece of PvE gear might only have 100 Strength on it. Again, those numbers are purely hypothetical, but hopefully it illustrates the idea.

That change accomplishes a couple of things for us. First, it lets us keep PvP and PvE item levels closer together, while still ensuring that PvP gear remains best for PvP and vice versa. It also "demystifies" PvP Power quite a bit; a percentage-based increase can be hard to really quantify without a lot of math, but raw stats are much easier to understand.

As to the name, we can talk about it, but part of why we chose the term "PvP Power" to begin with was that it makes it extremely obvious that the stat only functions inside PvP environments. We want to be sure that players who purchase PvP gear know that it's going to be less effective in PvE situations. I'll bring it up, though :)


This make so much more sense and I completely love it. SO much more fair for all parties!!
I really like the idea behind that and it's similar to what I suggested previously. Why not something like this (ROUGH numbers):

PvP Item A has 70 agi/str/int + 30 PvP Power
PvE Item A has 100 agi/str/int
PvP power does not function in PvE "instances", but functions everywhere else.
1 PvP Power = 1 agi/str/int in the open world
1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int inside PvP instances

That way both gear types are basically equal in the open world and equally handicapped in the respective instances. I see no reason that PvP gear should be weaker in the open world against mobs. Gear differences are mainly been for instances anyway.


We've discussed a similar idea (and may yet decide to go with something like it), but our concern with it is that it's still somewhat complicated for players to figure out. As I mentioned earlier, one of the issues we'd like to solve is how difficult it can be to figure out exactly what impact PvP Power is going to have on your effectiveness. "1 PvP Power = 1 Strength vs Players" is easy to get across and understand. "1 PvP Power = 2 Strength in Arenas and Battlegrounds, worthless in dungeons and raids, and 1 Strength in the open world," not so much.

One other thing I should mention based on some other comments in here is that, just like today, PvP Power will be active vs players in any context, not just inside PvP instances. So if you're comparing a PvE and PvP piece of the same item level -- for example, a piece of Conquest gear and a piece of Heroic raid gear -- it should work out something like this:

  • The PvE item is stronger in PvE instances
  • The PvP item is stronger in PvP instances
  • The PvE item is slightly stronger vs creatures in the open world
  • The PvP item is slightly stronger vs players in the open world

Once again, I need to be clear that this is all early development thinking and anything might change, but our hope is that whatever we end up doing makes things work something like that.
I really like the idea behind that and it's similar to what I suggested previously. Why not something like this (ROUGH numbers):

PvP Item A has 70 agi/str/int + 30 PvP Power
PvE Item A has 100 agi/str/int
PvP power does not function in PvE "instances", but functions everywhere else.
1 PvP Power = 1 agi/str/int in the open world
1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int inside PvP instances

That way both gear types are basically equal in the open world and equally handicapped in the respective instances. I see no reason that PvP gear should be weaker in the open world against mobs. Gear differences are mainly been for instances anyway.


We've discussed a similar idea (and may yet decide to go with something like it), but our concern with it is that it's still somewhat complicated for players to figure out. As I mentioned earlier, one of the issues we'd like to solve is how difficult it can be to figure out exactly what impact PvP Power is going to have on your effectiveness. "1 PvP Power = 1 Strength vs Players" is easy to get across and understand. "1 PvP Power = 2 Strength in Arenas and Battlegrounds, worthless in dungeons and raids, and 1 Strength in the open world," not so much.

One other thing I should mention based on some other comments in here is that, just like today, PvP Power will be active vs players in any context, not just inside PvP instances. So if you're comparing a PvE and PvP piece of the same item level -- for example, a piece of Conquest gear and a piece of Heroic raid gear -- it should work out something like this:

  • The PvE item is stronger in PvE instances
  • The PvP item is stronger in PvP instances
  • The PvE item is slightly stronger vs creatures in the open world
  • The PvP item is slightly stronger vs players in the open world

Once again, I need to be clear that this is all early development thinking and anything might change, but our hope is that whatever we end up doing makes things work something like that.


I would sure love to hear what could possibly be wrong with the ideas behind post #46. It's so simple, yet all i am hearing lore is designs' idea of squishing it all back together again. Then you are at the same place as before, pve'ers whining about pvp geard's in raids and pvp'ers likely smashing faces of pve'ers in the pvp situations. Or vice versa.

In your iterations you would have both styles wearing all sorts of gear and it making no difference. So much for accomplishments in game to get specific type gear.
01/13/2014 03:30 PMPosted by Bojana
Sushytime:
Knowing the pve geared players can flat demolish pvp geared players in wpvp


PVP armor set bonus make up for 90-100K extra health


except current tier pve geared players have well over 25% more stats.
Why not just give everyone the same gear ...

I don't understand why we need 2 types of gear.

So what if a PVE hero gets gear that can blow up a player? So what if a PVP gladiator gets gear that can down a raid boss?

Let rated fights vs top ranked PVPers drop loot or whatever, I'm sure you can dream up a system of some sort.

edit: LOL. I just a very twisted idea. Killing someone in PVP should cause them to drop one piece of their gear (random). PVP will become "srs bns" with vendettas running to the end of time.
WHAT IF THIS PVP DUMMY SCALED WITH EACH TIER OF PVP GEAR?!

*mind blown*
[quote]
  • The PvE item is stronger in PvE instances
  • The PvP item is stronger in PvP instances
  • The PvE item is slightly stronger vs creatures in the open world
  • The PvP item is slightly stronger vs players in the open world

Thank you for elaborating on this Lore, that's all I needed to hear. I hope WoD is something like this.
I'm sure you've already thought of this, but what about adding resilience back to pvp gear and lowering base resil? It's useless in pve, but in open world you won't get one shotted by a heroic geared destro lock but they will die just as quickly because you have pvp power and their lack of resilience balances with high health pool from pve gear. Would sort of balance current world pvp, and i'm sure battle fatigue can restore speed to arena/rbgs. Of course this plan would change if pvp and pve gear had similar/same ilvls, but for current patch this seems like it might help.


It's definitely tough, but we think we can at least get things a lot closer than they currently are.


Only issue I see here is people rolling into raids with PvP gear and not working towards anything else as PvP gear is easier to attain.




It's definitely tough, but we think we can at least get things a lot closer than they currently are.


Only issue I see here is people rolling into raids with PvP gear and not working towards anything else as PvP gear is easier to attain.


Good, doing constant LFR on alts is boring as hell. The gear/rep/vp gate at the start of this expansion almost made me quit the game after 8 years. Also, waiting on weapon drop rng is VERY FUN! I hope they equalize the two gear types again and make the game better for it.
So thankful that the desolate Arena forums are finally getting some blue attention!
I really like the idea behind that and it's similar to what I suggested previously. Why not something like this (ROUGH numbers):

PvP Item A has 70 agi/str/int + 30 PvP Power
PvE Item A has 100 agi/str/int
PvP power does not function in PvE "instances", but functions everywhere else.
1 PvP Power = 1 agi/str/int in the open world
1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int inside PvP instances

That way both gear types are basically equal in the open world and equally handicapped in the respective instances. I see no reason that PvP gear should be weaker in the open world against mobs. Gear differences are mainly been for instances anyway.


We've discussed a similar idea (and may yet decide to go with something like it), but our concern with it is that it's still somewhat complicated for players to figure out. As I mentioned earlier, one of the issues we'd like to solve is how difficult it can be to figure out exactly what impact PvP Power is going to have on your effectiveness. "1 PvP Power = 1 Strength vs Players" is easy to get across and understand. "1 PvP Power = 2 Strength in Arenas and Battlegrounds, worthless in dungeons and raids, and 1 Strength in the open world," not so much.

One other thing I should mention based on some other comments in here is that, just like today, PvP Power will be active vs players in any context, not just inside PvP instances. So if you're comparing a PvE and PvP piece of the same item level -- for example, a piece of Conquest gear and a piece of Heroic raid gear -- it should work out something like this:

  • The PvE item is stronger in PvE instances
  • The PvP item is stronger in PvP instances
  • The PvE item is slightly stronger vs creatures in the open world
  • The PvP item is slightly stronger vs players in the open world

Once again, I need to be clear that this is all early development thinking and anything might change, but our hope is that whatever we end up doing makes things work something like that.

Fair point and I'm sure the devs could come up with some other way to do the "1 PvP Power = 2 agi/str/int" part of that, that might be a little simple, although I still think that's pretty simple.


One other thing I should mention based on some other comments in here is that, just like today, PvP Power will be active vs players in any context, not just inside PvP instances. So if you're comparing a PvE and PvP piece of the same item level -- for example, a piece of Conquest gear and a piece of Heroic raid gear -- it should work out something like this:

  • The PvE item is stronger in PvE instances
  • The PvP item is stronger in PvP instances
  • The PvE item is slightly stronger vs creatures in the open world
  • The PvP item is slightly stronger vs players in the open world


I think most would be okay with this as long as the world advantage for both sides is a SLIGHT one, but if nothing else making them even would probably be fine as well for most.
"1 PvP Power = 2 Strength in Arenas and Battlegrounds, worthless in dungeons and raids, and 1 Strength in the open world," not so much.


How about:

1 PvP power = +1 Str/Agi/Int vs players.
PvP power is doubled in PvP instances.

It's never too hard to clarify when you give yourself time to think. :)
If you do go with PVP Power just boosting a main stat, can you call it "PVP Strength, PVP Agility, and PVP Intellect" on the appropriate gear, for even more clarity?
01/13/2014 12:44 PMPosted by Lore


I think he means more along the lines of "Why can I Chaos Bolt for 1.5 million in PvE while PvP I can rarely go above 180k?" kinds of situations, which I think is a legit concern.


Precisely.


I would add that Players HEALTH is a LOT less tha bosses, So equal hits would be ONE SHOTS, NOT a good PvP environment!

It is a BIG turn off when I found that all the HP PvP gear I grinded was useless since I had a PvE Ilevel of 556.

PvP HP gear should be as good as LFR at least! And really, equal (or closely) to normal raid gear.

You shouldn't be a free HK because you are out questing in your PVE gear. A PVP geared player should have the gear advantage out in the world, but not the ROFL-stomp you advise.

On the flip-side, how is a PVPer suppose to do any meaningful PVE? You can't get PVE gear without doing PVE, and you suggest that they not be able to contribute in the slightest because of getting started in PVP gear.


That's exactly why i proposed the idea. It wasn't designed to be fair for either individual outside of their respective realities. Also, "PVP power" would only apply to instanced PVP battles i.e. Arenas, Rated and Non-rated BGs , PVP specific events and Duels. Making it completely useless to gank anything outside of anything that isn't instanced or mutual combat. Again, i said to replace base stats with Power.

Since Blizzard has basically admitted that open-world PVP is actually PVE; since PVE gear is actually rolf-stomping kids already in open-world PVP...this doesn't change anything. To participate in open-world PVP...you'd still need PVE gear (exactly the way it is now).

The difference is when that same PVEr joins any BG they'd become severely limited to their actual function and use (just like how it is with PVP gear in open-world currently). There is no noticeable penalty for using dungeon gear inside PVP instances. There is a huge penalty for using PVP gear inside of dungeons.

The merging of these two very completely different worlds is the cause of every single one of the problems that currently exist today. The same could be said with certain spells and abilities, but that's a different topic entirely. Just separate it - they aren't and can never be the same animal. Unless in the future it would be possible to raid an instance already in progress as some neutral third party mercenary.

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