Ret paladins = Rogues

Paladin
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Our holy power stack in a slower manner making it feel completely different then a rogue stacking combo points as well as paladins have cooldowns as a limiter vs rogues who have energy.

Some of these I can understand, but some are a pretty big stretch. I could just as well say Divine Shield and Cloak of Shadows are the same thing cause they both negate magic effects, but they are completely different abilities.
Rogues are limited by energy, Paladins are limited by cooldowns

Have you ever played a rogue?


Are you suggesting rogues have limitless energy?


I think you guys are misinterpreting,

Paladins are limited by short cooldown on abilities which limit how fast your holy power generates.

Rogues are limited by longer cooldown on abilities that give them an up edge in battle.

Were talking about the former which would be equivalent to the rogue energy bar which limits how fast your combo point generate.
Rogues are limited by energy, Paladins are limited by cooldowns

Have you ever played a rogue?


Are you suggesting rogues have limitless energy?


I think you guys are misinterpreting,

Paladins are limited by short cooldown on abilities which limit how fast your holy power generates.

Rogues are limited by longer cooldown on abilities that give them an up edge in battle.

Were talking about the former which would be equivalent to the rogue energy bar which limits how fast your combo point generate.


Abilities on cooldown cannot be used consecutively, but you can use other abilities in between. Abilities with no CD, but limited by energy can be used consecutively until you run out of energy. At which point you cannot do anything. The mechanics are completely different, even if a rogue with no energy effectively has a CD on his abilities at that point.

On top of that, Holy Power and Combo Point regeneration rates are largely irrelevant when we are discussing the use of abilities that do not generate combo points/holy power.


But your still basing rogue having a cooldown because of the energy bar, the energy bar is what is limiting his abilities not a cooldown.

Also what you said about using ability on cooldown and using abilities in between doesn't really make any since. Every single ability for paladin has some sort of cooldown, and they don't offset each other. After a judgment, crusader strike, holy wrath combo, paladin also can't do anything at that point till something comes off cooldown. (im not considering the procing of Art of War or wings cause it could also be an arguement that rogue have thistle tea, and abilities that either lower the cost of energy which could be somewhat comparable as it just means you can hit abilities more.)

In either case it doesn't really matter, both classes have there resources, there just limited by different things.

I'm on the paladin =/= rogue side of the fence anyways. So we may have an ability or two that similar, but playstyle are completely different. Truth of the matter is, some people just don't like the holy power system so they try to get their point acrossed by going "OMG PALADINS = ROGUES!!!"
next at 11.....holy priests = resto shamans....and holy paladins.

Abilities on cooldowns are independent of each other (assuming infinite mana). Abilities that consume energy are dependent on each other. Yes, you can still run out of abilities to press, but the mechanics are completely different. Hitting Judgement doesn't extend the cooldown of all my other abilities.


Ya i can agree, they both have there limits.

It matters a lot for class design, which was my point.


I think im kind of lost on this discussion, are you saying the implementation of the resource system for rogues is worse then the resource system for paladins?
Here's how I see it:

"Casters" start with a full resource (mana) and they generally cast a lot before they have to regenerate their resource

"Melee" start with an empty resouce (combo points, rage, runic power, holy power), which they build up, spend, and repeat over a fight.

Hunters are "in between" the two. They start with a full resource (focus starts full), but they spend and build it back up repeatedly in a fight (steady shot, aspect of the fox, talents, etc)

Enhancement shamans I have little knowledge/experience so they may be another exception

So it's inevitable rets, being "melee" will have similarities with other melee. Namely, they'll point out all the good points other melee have that we don't have, and all the bad points we have that other melee don't ;p
Rogues are limited by energy, Paladins are limited by cooldowns

Have you ever played a rogue?


Are you suggesting rogues have limitless energy?


Well they never don't have energy (if that makes sense) and 85% of their cooldowns are main pvp abilities and most of them have pretty large CD timers.
Rogues are limited by energy, Paladins are limited by cooldowns

Have you ever played a rogue?


Are you suggesting rogues have limitless energy?


Well they never don't have energy (if that makes sense) and 85% of their cooldowns are main pvp abilities and most of them have pretty large CD timers.
Rogues are limited by energy, Paladins are limited by cooldowns

Have you ever played a rogue?


Are you suggesting rogues have limitless energy?


Well they never don't have energy (if that makes sense) and 85% of their cooldowns are main pvp abilities and most of them have pretty large CD timers.
Double post my bad.
At any rate, Paladins and Rogues do use two different resources that are unique from each others, even if a little similar.


Their execution is too similar. They could have easily made it such that certain abilities were executable with different amounts of combo points, um, I mean "holy power". Do you save it for a single target ability or use it early on an AOE.

It's similar enough that I'm disappointed. When they said they were doing something different, I thought it would be really different. Oh well, I guess it's my own fault for getting my hopes up.
Their execution is only similar because you want to believe it is.

Just because you want to believe some fiction that your mind has made up does not make it true.



Their execution is only entirely different because you want to believe it is. Just because you want to believe some fiction that your mind has made up does not make it true.

See how easy this argument can apply to anyone. Which means it was meaningless crap.

Holy power = combo points (As a resource? Yes. Usage and implementation? No.)

Crusader strike = Sinister strike (One is limited by a resource (SS), other is limited by a CD (CS). )

Templar's Verdict = Eviscerate (Damages are calculated differently.)

Word of glory ~ Recuperate. One is a big instant heal and the other is a slow acting HoT, but both spend combo points to heal. (WoG is reactive, Recuperate is preventative.)

Rebuke = Kick (Pummel too. Classes needed interrupts and there's no need for any uniqueness here.)

Sprint ~ Long Arm of the Law. Both are gap closers, and both even have the same sound effect. (Reusing sound effects, so? Makes sense, plus the sound is effective. Sprint is on a CD and gives great insta movement. LAofT can be used at leisure and gives more overall movement.)

Slice and Dice = Inquisition. One is haste and one is a holy damage buff, but they both do the same thing, boost your damage by a large amount and you never want it to fall off in PVE. (Savage Roar, Totem of Wrath buff, TtW, Pyromaniac, Fire and Brimstone, Rupture, and I could go on. Your description of (boost your damage by a large amount and you never want it to fall off in PvE) entails to probably 50 or so talents and abilites. Different classes, different flavors.)

Kidney Shot ~ Hammer of Justice. Kidney Shot has a much shorter cooldown and requires combo points, but they're both 6 second stuns. (Kidney shot requires set up and combo points, HoJ is usable on the fly. Fundamentally different abilites and usability, similar effect.)

Blind = Repentance (Blind is on a 3min CD and lasts 10s. Repentance is on a 1min CD, incapacitates for 6s, and also doubles as CC in PvE. Not even close. If Blind = Repentance, then Gouge = Kidney Shot. Or Concussion Shot = Slow.)

Seal Fate/Ruthlessness talent = Divine Purpose talent. Seal Fate is a guarantee on crit, whereas Divine Purpose is pure chance, but it's fairly easy for a rogue to hit a 40% crit rate and make Seal Fate identical more or less. (Except Seal Fate cannot proc off Finishers, whereas TV can proc Divine Purpose. Assuming your TV = Evisc is accurate. One scales directly with crit, one scales slightly with Haste.)

Seal of Truth = Instant/Deadly poison. The Censure dot is essentially deadly poison, while the weapon damage per strike is similar to instant poison. (Except Poisons are used differently with different specs, or used differently based on context. Also both operate independently and cooperatively. Seal of Truth is a buff, that is switchable with other seals on the fly. Try changing poisons mid combat.)

Ardent Defender = Cheat Death. Yeah Ardent defender is a prot ability, but the talents are practically do the same thing. (Ardent Defender is a reactive death protection, with damage reduction, and a self heal that replaces the would-be death. Cheat Death is passive, keeps your health at 10%, damage reduction (oh noes, similarity!!), and simply prevents a killing blow from killing you.)



I bolded my added comments. Your analysis, while effective in explaining your point, is fundamentally wrong. Your basic assumptions of the similarities between these abilities makes it seem like you have never played a Rogue AND Ret Paladin one right after the other, in PvE or PvP.

While abilities sound or seem similar, when used in-game feel and correlate differently with your other abilities in a way that is unique. Ret paladin plays and feels so much more differently than a rogue. Same vice versa. Abilites and talents are "copied" from class to class all the time. However, they all mesh with your other abilities in a way that ISN'T the same as the other class.

And yes, Rogues = Paladins = Hunters = Mages = Warlocks = Priests = Shamans = Death Knights = Warriors = Druids because they all have a resource(s), that is expended to use abilites, that deal damage. (If you can't see the intended sarcasm, this is for you. [SARCASM] {^ That up there} [/SARCASM] )
No, holy power does not equal combo points.

HOWEVER, it would have been nice to have a refreshing mechanic, look at boomkins they are just a SINGLE SPEC and they got an entirely new mechanic, paladins got build up points that function fairly similar to combo points.

No, they aren't the same thing, but they aren't completely different and for a some of us it's kind of irksome, if not outright angering.

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