Save Alter Time!

Mage
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copy pasting this from another thread

FROM BOTH A PVE AND PVP STANDPOINT:

mobility - no. we have enough of that via blink and t1 talents. being able to double blink and blazing speed then instantly portal back would be incredibly op.

dps - hell no we do enough damage as it is. it already increases your dps if used properly anyway.

survivability - this seems to be the direction the devs were going with the spell, but unfortunately it didnt work out how they planned. however, mages have been fine survivability wise for the entire expansion in both pvp and pve. changing it to only help you survive would result in less intuitive gameplay. making it effect only surviving would also decouple it from providing additional burst in pvp, as well as making us nearly unkillable.

"oh the rogues on me better alter time through his stun lock"

theres no point in changing it because nothing is wrong with it, in my opinion. if you mess up your alter time that is on you, not the spell.
01/28/2014 01:29 PMPosted by Lissanda
So, if I had to choose two mage abilities to cut (though I have absolutely zero say in what Blizzard ultimately decides), it would be Alter Time and Rune of Power


I dont get why you would leave Mana Gems and Mirror Images in the game.
01/28/2014 01:43 PMPosted by Mumrit
Then stop using words to describe the ability such as 'integral.' Integral implies the the ability is essential or fundamental to the mage design.


Alter time IS essential and fundamental to the Mage Design.

01/28/2014 01:06 PMPosted by Mumrit
Casted nukes are integral to the class, alter time is not. Alter time is a flavor ability.


How can you say that when you're entire goal as a mage is to not cast nukes. The entire game play is to be casting BF/FoF as often as possible and Pyroblast! as often as possible. If you could spend an entire fight casting nothing but FoF and Pyroblast! you'd be a very excellent mage.
Wow, I can't believe this community ended up thinking and applying reason, whereas the MMO Champion community is apparently with Lissanna. Man that's backwards.

I don't even have anything to add at this point, you've all spoken so well to the point. Thank you so much.

And Jkspiritlink, I /echo everything you said.

And Lissanna, I'd get rid of a lot of things BEFORE Alter Time.

However, I just logged from my priest onto my druid and back onto my mage, and I just honestly can't see anyone's argument that mages have bloat. Try another class! Other classes should use *us* as an example! The more time that goes by the more hateful comments from people on MMO-C, the more I realize that the people who want AT to go away are people who never successfully used it and felt the powerful rewards-- and if it goes away, life becomes easier for you.

But anyway, I'd get rid of Flamestrike, all 3 armors, all 3 bombs, mana gem, conjure food/water, Remove Curse, the entire Frost Ward/Ring/Frostjaw tier, Deep Freeze, and Dragon's Breath before I would get rid of Alter Time.

But getting rid of anything aside from our awful Level 90 talents and maybe the mage bombs, is a ridiculous request that simplifies us even further and trounces on any semblance of identity that we have.
01/28/2014 01:51 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
Alter time IS essential and fundamental to the Mage Design.

How so? As i stated, it's a relatively new ability. Mages did not receive a massive overhaul in MOP that resulted in the ability's use being neither fundamental or essential to operate the class.

Calling it essential is hyperbole. The class would not need to be overhauled if the ability was removed. Raid parses would not start plummeting. Arena teams wouldn't start booting their mages.

01/28/2014 01:51 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
How can you say that when you're entire goal as a mage is to not cast nukes. The entire game play is to be casting BF/FoF as often as possible and Pyroblast! as often as possible. If you could spend an entire fight casting nothing but FoF and Pyroblast! you'd be a very excellent mage.


And where did I say that the goal wasn't to cast nukes? We're talking about a purely PVP perspective here, as I've already pointed out that alter time is a tiny gain in a PVE setting. I'm directly addressing your assertion that I glossed over PVP.

It's a common complain in PVP that a mage does little casting, and that the damage comes from procs generated by the bombs/frozen orb/ice lance procs. It's a complaint that you yourself have raised several times. Alter time is used to duplicate those procs in PVP. It encourages more usage of procs to burst while discouraging casting. Why cast when you can use double the procs? Why would I hard cast an ability while I'm sitting in alter time, knowing I'm going to lose an icicle charge?

Removing the ability allows for mages to be balanced around not banking double procs in a PVP environment. It opens up the possibility for the developers to further reward casting rather than requiring mages to benefit twice from procs.
01/28/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Akraen
However, I just logged from my priest onto my druid and back onto my mage, and I just honestly can't see anyone's argument that mages have bloat.

I disagree ;)
01/28/2014 01:47 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
01/28/2014 01:29 PMPosted by Lissanda
So, if I had to choose two mage abilities to cut (though I have absolutely zero say in what Blizzard ultimately decides), it would be Alter Time and Rune of Power


I dont get why you would leave Mana Gems and Mirror Images in the game.


Who says I would leave them in? If you made a compelling argument for why they should be removed, I'd listen to those arguments. Those could easily be removed. My point is that nothing is really safe or sacred for removal.

I particularly dislike abilities that take away control over your character and restrict movement (and have been quite consistent in this point for many years). However, other abilities would be perfectly fine to remove. Mirror Images and Mana gems, however, both have compelling reasons why they could be removed:

1) Mana gems are about resource management, but mana management for specs other than arcane isn't really interesting (so, there's no reason why frost or fire would need mana gems). They only marginally impact damage, so they could go.

2) Mirror Images aren't particularly unique (other classes have temporary pets that come out), they don't really impact your overall damage all that much, and they are redundant with other cooldowns.

So, sure both of them could go. There's nothing saying that 2 is the maximum number of abilities they could remove from a class, so sure: lets cut Alter Time, Mana Gems, Rune of Power (and the other level 90 talents, while we are at it - just make evocation a decent arcane spell and call it a day), Focusing Crystal from the level 100 talents should also be out (before it even gets in), etc. I don't really have attachments to specific spells. I would be okay with any number of things being removed IF Blizzard makes other changes to the rotations that keeps the rotations fun and interesting.
01/28/2014 02:06 PMPosted by Lissanda
lets cut Alter Time, Mana Gems, Rune of Power (and the other level 90 talents, while we are at it - just make evocation a decent arcane spell and call it a day)


no, dont cut alter time.
01/28/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Akraen
However, I just logged from my priest onto my druid and back onto my mage, and I just honestly can't see anyone's argument that mages have bloat. Try another class! Other classes should use *us* as an example!


I can't use examples from classes I have zero experience with. I have to use mage and druid examples to highlight general class examples that would apply to any class. So, when I pick on mage & druid abilities, I'm not really even picking on those abilities persay, but those types of abilities that all the classes have (e.g., damage increasing cooldowns as a concept).

That's why I find the "save X ability" threads to be particularly ironic - because my points were never about particular abilities, but in general redundancy, bloat, and Blizzard's desire to streamline the number of buttons so that they could increase the complexity of what we do with those smaller number of buttons. The developer's tweet was also directly asking what abilities people loved but were afraid Blizzard would cut - abilities like Alter Time definitely fall in the range of abilities where there are good arguments on both sides (related to why we should keep or remove it). Stimulating those conversations give Blizzard more tools they can use to evaluate whether to keep the spells or not. Sometimes, I metaphorically poke bee hives with sticks just to get the bees into action - even if the side-effect is that sometimes I get stung.

I mean, my original joke about how Alter Time could die in a fire was directly related to all the points I'd previously made about how Alter Time kills people in fires (so, no one else understood the joke of suggesting it suffer the same fate that it inflicts on others?), and that somehow spurred a crusade with petition threads and everything. In the end, it's Blizzard's job to decide how to change (or not change) the game. If I can inspire actual constructive conversations in the community about the game, then I did my part. Apparently, being inflammatory on twitter worked better than the 2 month old blog post that essentially said the same thing, but in 14,000 words instead of 1400 characters. ;)

I have to stay within my domains of expertise. If I start asking for buttons I've never touched a day in my life to be cut, then that's a problem. That's why I've repeatedly said that my problem isn't with any one button in particular, but in the fact that there are definitely areas of improvement where removing buttons would be beneficial after 10 years of adding in buttons just for the sake of adding more toys.
I'm switching to a mage from a DK because as Frost DW I literally hit 3 buttons for dps and 3 buttons for DPS CD's during a fight and heck I can macro the 3 into one so during an entire fight I hit 4 buttons. If you think your class is bloated then go play a frost dk and faceroll 4 buttons for an entire fight! On the other hand I'm loving playing my mage and actually having choices during a fight. I am by no means an expert mage and I am still learning the class. My mage is named Bahao on the Black Dragon Flight server. So if any 'expert' mages wanna chat feel free to send me a message!
01/28/2014 02:43 PMPosted by Bloodsmear
I'm switching to a mage from a DK because as Frost DW I literally hit 3 buttons for dps and 3 buttons for DPS CD's during a fight and heck I can macro the 3 into one so during an entire fight I hit 4 buttons. If you think your class is bloated then go play a frost dk and faceroll 4 buttons for an entire fight! On the other hand I'm loving playing my mage and actually having choices during a fight. I am by no means an expert mage and I am still learning the class. My mage is named Bahao on the Black Dragon Flight server. So if any 'expert' mages wanna chat feel free to send me a message!


Yes, and my entire point about DPS cooldowns was the fact that DPS cooldowns which players macro together are the perfect place to reduce needless buttons. The number of buttons is rather meaningless if 3 of the 6 buttons are macro'd together in a "set it and forget it" manner. So, frost DKs might have more room for the rotations to be interesting if people didn't mistake more abilities/buttons for more difficult. They could remove a cooldown, and change others in some way that made the rotation more interesting - and then you could have a better rotation that still used fewer overall abilities because fewer buttons needed to be macro'd together.
Compare any of the mage specs to a moonkin. Do it.

You're brashly attempting to remove something from the game. Something players have grown used to. I'm striking up the defense because if all your arguments can survive this defense, then I concede happily that I might be in a minority. It feels as though you and those apparently with you are raging exaggerated reasons, almost entirely based off you holding an ability accountable for your own errors in playstyle.

I don't know why you and others apparently have an issue with there being a challenge in the game, or something that you have to do well to see the results. I agree with you about a lot of button bloat insofar as moonkin having cat and bear forms, ambiguity of certain mage thematic spells (flamestrike stands out here), a plethora of hunter abilities, and so forth.

Look, your parses aren't remarkable. You're mediocre at best. But that's not a problem. It's not a problem that you don't know how to time your Alter Time, or that your uptimes are bad.

Oh, Lissanda, how about you actually use Alter Time, too? Maybe with some practice you'll improve:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nicb6omh5f80gfrl/details/21/?s=226&e=389
Eghhh, yeah, if we remove Alter Time, your DPS will in fact go up against the players who do.
Look, your parses aren't remarkable. You're mediocre at best. But that's not a problem. It's not a problem that you don't know how to time your Alter Time, or that your uptimes are bad.

Oh, Lissanda, how about you actually use Alter Time, too? Maybe with some practice you'll improve:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-nicb6omh5f80gfrl/details/21/?s=226&e=389
Eghhh, yeah, if we remove Alter Time, your DPS will in fact go up against the players who do.


Wow. Just wow.
Where do people get this idea that wow has ability bloat? Can people really not handle a 10 button pve rotation that they want to gut every other aspect of the game?

This is a pretty marginal spell. Mages would lose a bit of flavour with its removal, but I think it safely could be removed.


In pve, possibly. But there's more than pve in thisgame.
01/28/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Akraen
Wow, I can't believe this community ended up thinking and applying reason, whereas the MMO Champion community is apparently with Lissanna. Man that's backwards.


It's backwards because they disagree with you?
I'll post what Alter Time might look like next expansion:

Uncouple AT from DPS, make it keep everything else and enhance/fix its choosiness with debuffs. Location reset will still be a part of the spell (maybe add a glyph for PVE to negate the relocation) (relocation I see as being more geared towards PVP, anyways). This way, it can satisfy both PVE and PVP without screwing with the spell too much (aside from DPS).
01/28/2014 03:28 PMPosted by Mastamagee
This way, it can satisfy both PVE and PVP without screwing with the spell too much (aside from DPS).


That does NOT satisfy PVP.

It screws up the spell horribly.

Terrible change. Dont do it. Dont even think about doing it.
That does NOT satisfy PVP.

It screws up the spell horribly.

Terrible change. Dont do it. Dont even think about doing it.

I actually don't think it would break the spell. Sure, it's nice to shapshot those DPS CDs but, come on, do you really think Blizz intended for the spell to end up how it is? Mark my words, this spell will go the utility route.

You learned to play without AT before, it won't break the game if part of it disappears.
01/28/2014 03:47 PMPosted by Mastamagee
I actually don't think it would break the spell.


I actually dont think your opinion is worth as much as mine.

01/28/2014 03:47 PMPosted by Mastamagee
do you really think Blizz intended for the spell to end up how it is?


Don't care what they intended, i love how it is and i want it to stay the way it is. I dont think they intended cataclysm combustion to end up how it was in S11, but i love it and every fire mage who ever played the spec wanted it to stay the way it was.

Some of the greatest things were invented or discovered while intending to do other things. Intent matters for very little in life.

01/28/2014 03:47 PMPosted by Mastamagee
Mark my words, this spell will go the utility route.


It probably will. We have little impact on what they do. But i dont want it to happen.
I just don't want it removed as a concept and I've been clear about that since the start :)

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