Save Alter Time!

Mage
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If you want to keep it, I think the "return to current location" part should be removed. Learning the right time to use it to optimize buffs and also managing not to get yourself teleported back into a randomly appearing patch of death is maybe more complexity than the developers intended when they implemented it.
A better alter-time would be one that is always on, always remembering you from 6 seconds prior, and can be used even stunned, DEAD, silenced, feared, loss of control, or even a bly dev CHEATING, to then let you go back 6 seconds prior.

Now THAT would be a change I'd accept!
I have thirty-three keybinds that I use on boss fights. That's with macros. Do I use them all on every fight? No.

But that certainly is a lot.
01/28/2014 06:27 PMPosted by Tearlag
If you want to keep it, I think the "return to current location" part should be removed. Learning the right time to use it to optimize buffs and also managing not to get yourself teleported back into a randomly appearing patch of death is maybe more complexity than the developers intended when they implemented it.


Sure, but I think the new level 100 talent (Prolonged exposure) does a better job than alter time in that respect. For frost, Ice lance would extend Icy Veins by 2 seconds. That adds additional complexity by making you want to have two ice lances ready to go before you cast Icy Veins, and has fun interactions with the frost mage rotation, but doesn't also have the drawback of killing you in fires.

On the other hand, the level 100 "focusing crystal" talent is really a bad idea because it requires the target to not actually move for the entire duration of your charging up the crystal and exploding it (there's an important mobility reason as to why resto druids have the ability to move the healing mushrooms they're charging up).

In general, though, if alter time didn't restrict movement, and/or didn't remove beneficial buffs, I wouldn't likely have a problem with it at all.

I'd still have a problem with rune of power's movement restrictions, since the entire point of rune of power is to restrict your movement, even with the more recent changes.

In conclusion: Restricting player movement and removing the choices about where you want to stand at any point in time is something that I have issues with. I don't have issues with the game's overall difficulty levels, the overall number of buttons, or anything else really. I like the mage class. I just dislike Blizzard's insistence in making class mechanics that don't work right in heavy movement PVE raiding.
01/28/2014 05:00 PMPosted by Grizzlebeez
No, it's not. They are saying what they see as problems.


But when the solution to that problem is simply "be aware and play better" why remove it?
Posted by Xiun

It's an amazing interactive and high skill cap spell. I hate hate HATE when they remove things that actually require some thought and player ability. This game doesn't need to get easier.

This is a perfectly reasonable opinion to have, though I am allowed to have an opinion that disagrees to all points.


I would love to hear your reasoning as to why you think alter time is (1) Non-interactive, (2)low skill cap, and (3) why for the love of god do you think this game needs to get easier.

01/28/2014 07:27 PMPosted by Lissanda
In general, though, if alter time didn't restrict movement, and/or didn't remove beneficial buffs, I wouldn't likely have a problem with it at all.

I'd still have a problem with rune of power's movement restrictions, since the entire point of rune of power is to restrict your movement, even with the more recent changes.


You are going to have an unpleasant time in WoD. Theyve stated clear as day that there will be more movement restrictions to casters, not less.
01/28/2014 07:18 PMPosted by Mumrit
I have thirty-three keybinds that I use on boss fights. That's with macros. Do I use them all on every fight? No.

But that certainly is a lot.


I'm up to 76 as elemental. Do i use them all every arena match? Yes.

33 is baby-binds. Which is why i dont think Mage is going to get chopped more than 1 or 2 buttons tops. All the blue posts says "SOME CLASSES ARE UP FOR CHOPPING" i have never seen a post say "Mages are up for chopping, they are the worst offenders of button bloat and are ruining this game"
01/28/2014 07:43 PMPosted by Xiun
01/28/2014 05:00 PMPosted by Grizzlebeez
No, it's not. They are saying what they see as problems.


But when the solution to that problem is simply "be aware and play better" why remove it?


The problem is the amount of uncontrollable randomness caused by poor interactions between the spell and other game mechanics. You can pretend to have control over the randomness, but in the end, you really can't choose to have your procs & buffs & cooldowns all align with the exact right set of seconds where no boss mechanics are going to interfere with your casting for years of game play.

Moonkin could easily work around the fact that Eclipse was poorly designed and interacted poorly with insect swarm, but fixing Eclipse to allow for players to have control (and ultimately removing insect swarm) allowed for an incredible amount of complexity and skill to be involved with playing a moonkin, without players' main goals to be finding the best workarounds to deal with poor Blizzard implementation. Fixing broken mechanics and removing spells that made it harder to design interesting and complex rotations/priorities actually made moonkin harder (not easier).

My arguments have been: Complex and difficult game play doesn't need to involve putting up with broken mechanics that interfere with the ability to have interesting, complex, and fun play.

Instead, Blizzard could keep mages equally difficult and fun without having "deal with crappy and poorly implemented mechanics" as the point. "L2P" is not actually a real solution to the problem of "what happens when some random person in LFR hits their heroism completely out of your control?" It doesn't solve the problem of "what happens when a completely random boss ability targets you during times you couldn't have anticipated?" It doesn't solve the problem of "what happens when the stars don't randomly align your way and screw up your timing?".

My main objections are about things that aren't under player control that make Alter Time less fun. As WOD is likely to have an increase in boss mechanics that you can't just ignore or work around, WOD is going to cause more problems if addressing the poor interactions with mechanics outside of the mage's control isn't addressed. We can just ignore these problems and blame players for poor game design, or we could actually ask Blizzard to fix the problems in game design. In the 10 years of WOW's history, I've always gone with the choice of asking for fixes - and expecting Blizzard to fix spells in ways I never anticipated or suggested in the first place.

So, if they removed alter time, the rotations wouldn't stay exactly the same with alter time removed. Instead, there would be new interactions with new mechanics (such as the level 100 talents) that added new interesting, complex, and difficult aspects to the rotations. I think Alter Time actually interferes with the ability for really cool new mechanics like Prolonged Exposre (level 100 talent) to actually be good and add good layers of complexity & interactivity & control to the rotations.
01/28/2014 07:54 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
I'm up to 76 as elemental. Do i use them all every arena match? Yes.

33 is baby-binds.

I didn't include @focus macros, nor abilities directly related to targeting.

Nor hotkeyed buffs for that matter.
01/28/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
I would love to hear your reasoning as to why you think alter time is (1) Non-interactive, (2)low skill cap, and (3) why for the love of god do you think this game needs to get easier.


please.

1-2-3, i'd like to hear everything

I didn't include @focus macros.


do you have @focus for every ability and some abilities twice?

probably not.

i have over 50 actual "spells" and not /tar1 /tar2 /tar3 type things.
01/28/2014 07:18 PMPosted by Mumrit
I have thirty-three keybinds that I use on boss fights. That's with macros. Do I use them all on every fight? No.

But that certainly is a lot.


That's not actually a lot at all, especially if you're not using them every boss fight.
01/28/2014 08:03 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
i have over 50 actual "spells" and not /tar1 /tar2 /tar3 type things.

No you don't. If you honestly do, I'd like to see a list. There aren't fifty unique abilities that would be useful to an elemental shaman in an arena match.

If you want to expand the list to simply include any ability you use ever, even out of combat, I easy have closer to 50-60.
01/28/2014 08:05 PMPosted by Xiun
That's not actually a lot at all, especially if you're not using them every boss fight.

It is. Thirty-three keybinds is a lot for the default UI to handle.

Please note that I'm not including abilities to that list that are typically aren't casted in PVE combat (Armor, table, portals, etc.)
Maybe it's because I'm just an LFR hero but anything more than maybe 15 buttons at a time seems absolutely crazy. I don't know how you guys manage it.
01/28/2014 08:13 PMPosted by Mumrit
It is. Thirty-three keybinds is a lot for the default UI to handle.


It really really isn't, especially if you just have situational macros and little-used spells.

I'm curious what 33 spells you have up that isn't related to focus and targeting and not involved in very specific encounters? Seems like maybe bad management of spells IMO. I have a lot of binds as well but I'd say I maybe use at most 8 or so a fight? I mean ATM on this H paragons I'm using a lot more, but that's because im doing hard content - causes me to step up my game.
01/28/2014 07:51 PMPosted by Jkspiritlink
You are going to have an unpleasant time in WoD. Theyve stated clear as day that there will be more movement restrictions to casters, not less.


and I can keep having the exact same disagreement with Blizzard about these points that I've been having for the last almost 10 years, and I can keep enjoying and playing their games while I disagree with them.

These aren't new magical problems I just came up with today. My opinions on abilities that take away from players' abilities to control their own characters have been something I've argued against for 8+ years at this point.

I can dislike abilities that take away player control, restrict movement, and take away freedom from players - because I think complexity doesn't have to be in the form of making people deal with poorly implemented mechanics. This includes: not only the current rune of power and alter time,but also includes:
moonkin's "melee for mana" mechanic in burning crusade that forced moonkin to stay in melee range (removed),
the feral "John Madden" mess (already changed),
Druid healing shrooms (already changed),
not being able to move lifebloom from one target to another (already changed),
starfall pulling all the mobs in a zone (they keep trying to fix it and keep breaking it again),
Invocation where evocate had a super long cast time (changed, but I could still live without the talent for frost),
Rune of Power's original design (already changed to be more flexible),
Focusing crystal's funky mechanic that is going to cause mages problems because you can't move the crystal (level 100 talent previewed at Blizzcon - not changed yet),
Dream of Cenarius that forced druids to do off-role things (changed a couple times, but I still dislike it),
Druid MOP talents that forced resto & moonkin druids into bear &/or cat form (mostly fixed),
requiring moonkin to use Faerie Fire that didn't work well in moonkin rotations (fixed),
Not being able to mount in moonkin form (fixed),
Moving at 50% speed in druid tree form, while not being able to drink in tree form (fixed),
Eclipse for moonkin used to be a random proc (changed to a resource bar),
There wasn't a way to get Eclipse on-demand (Blizzard added a cooldown that gives you on-demand Eclipse),

and I could keep going with the list of things where I objected to players not being able to have control over aspects of their characters I thought was meaningful and important. I am incredibly consistent in the things I have objections to, and most of the things where I have objections to poorly implemented mechanics that restricted players' movement/freedom/control, the changes Blizzard implemented haven't really had negative impacts on the game. Instead, moonkin, feral, druids, and restoration druids have incredibly complex, demanding, and skillful aspects of their playstyle that make the class fun for people to play - because Blizzard found ways of balancing the removal of some things with the addition of others, and the encounters themselves keep getting more and more difficult.
I'm curious what 33 spells you have up that isn't related to focus and targeting? Seems like maybe bad management of spells IMO.

Just going off what I have bound right now with current talent spec (and off memory, so I may be forgetting one or two items):

Frost nova
Frostbolt
Cone of Cold
Frostbomb
Ice Barrier
Alter time
Invocation
Spellsteal
Mirror images
Frostfire bolt
icelance
EMFH
counterspell
sheep
blink
iceblock
icy veins
potion
elemental / freeze macro
greater invisibility
arcane explosion
deep freeze
slowfall
ring of frost
blazing speed
healthstone
altertime
flamestrike
mana gem
frozen orb
blizzard
symbiosis
Arcane Intellect (for when someone drops)

I did forget to mention the bindings set to control the pet (passive/agressive/attack)

Abilities also bound to lesser used keys:
misc portals
armors
conjure mana gem
mount
revive
mobile bank
conjure table
food
01/28/2014 07:58 PMPosted by Lissanda
The problem is the amount of uncontrollable randomness caused by poor interactions between the spell and other game mechanics. You can pretend to have control over the randomness, but in the end, you really can't choose to have your procs & buffs & cooldowns all align with the exact right set of seconds where no boss mechanics are going to interfere with your casting for years of game play.

Moonkin could easily work around the fact that Eclipse was poorly designed and interacted poorly with insect swarm, but fixing Eclipse to allow for players to have control (and ultimately removing insect swarm) allowed for an incredible amount of complexity and skill to be involved with playing a moonkin, without players' main goals to be finding the best workarounds to deal with poor Blizzard implementation. Fixing broken mechanics and removing spells that made it harder to design interesting and complex rotations/priorities actually made moonkin harder (not easier).

My arguments have been: Complex and difficult game play doesn't need to involve putting up with broken mechanics that interfere with the ability to have interesting, complex, and fun play.

Instead, Blizzard could keep mages equally difficult and fun without having "deal with crappy and poorly implemented mechanics" as the point. "L2P" is not actually a real solution to the problem of "what happens when some random person in LFR hits their heroism completely out of your control?" It doesn't solve the problem of "what happens when a completely random boss ability targets you during times you couldn't have anticipated?" It doesn't solve the problem of "what happens when the stars don't randomly align your way and screw up your timing?".

My main objections are about things that aren't under player control that make Alter Time less fun. As WOD is likely to have an increase in boss mechanics that you can't just ignore or work around, WOD is going to cause more problems if addressing the poor interactions with mechanics outside of the mage's control isn't addressed. We can just ignore these problems and blame players for poor game design, or we could actually ask Blizzard to fix the problems in game design. In the 10 years of WOW's history, I've always gone with the choice of asking for fixes - and expecting Blizzard to fix spells in ways I never anticipated or suggested in the first place.

So, if they removed alter time, the rotations wouldn't stay exactly the same with alter time removed. Instead, there would be new interactions with new mechanics (such as the level 100 talents) that added new interesting, complex, and difficult aspects to the rotations. I think Alter Time actually interferes with the ability for really cool new mechanics like Prolonged Exposre (level 100 talent) to actually be good and add good layers of complexity & interactivity & control to the rotations.


I don't know, the whole "can't control procs" reasoning seems pretty weak to me. Besides, if every aspect of player abilities is under the player's own control, then we arrive at a situation where there's no "complex interaction", because every button press will have a set rotation in place. So you're kind of undermining your own argument here.

I've offered up suggestions for button bloat removal that I think makes more sense than removing Alter Time.
01/28/2014 08:13 PMPosted by Mumrit
No you don't. If you honestly do, I'd like to see a list.


1 flame shock
2 earth shock
3 fire elemental totem
4 frost shock
5 AS
6 hex
7 Engineering gloves tinker
8 healing stream totem
9 ancestral guidance
10 capacitor totem
11 ancestral spirit
12 battle standard of coordination
13 thunderstorm
14 remove curse
15 windshear
16 tremor totem
17 stormlash totem
18 purge
19 bind elemental
20 healing tide totem
21 shamanistic rage
22 healing surge
23 CC removal Trinket
24 lava burst
25 chain lightning
26 ghost wolf
27 lightning bolt
28 totemic projection
29 ascendance (all in one macro)
30 lighning shield.
31 earthquake
32 grounding totem
33 earthgrab totem
34 magma totem
35 symbiosis
36 healing rain
37 earth elemental totem
38 water walking
39 health stone
40 flying carpet mount
41 tiger mount
42 bloodlust
43 engineering rocket boots
44 rockbiter weapon
45 flametongue weapon
46 frostbrand weapon
47 engineering parachute
48 unleash elements
49 searing totem
50 spiritwalkers grace
Frostbolt
Cone of Cold
Frostbomb
Ice Barrier
Invocation
Mirror images
Frostfire bolt
icelance
blink
iceblock
potion
elemental / freeze macro
greater invisibility
deep freeze
blazing speed
mana gem
frozen orb
Frost nova
counterspell


I'm giving you mana gem even though it's not really used often in an average raid situation as frost. And while we're talking about ability bloat, frost has a bit more than the other specs (ele, orb)

healthstone


Wouldn't really count this, considering it's somethign everyone needs.

blizzard
flamestrike
arcane explosion


If someone/you has too many binds to handle, you can easily swap these out depending on what the fight needs (IE use flamestrike on galak, Blizzard on shamans etc).


icy veins
altertime


Can be macro'd together (and honestly should) (you also said AT twice).

I did forget to mention the bindings set to control the pet (passive/agressive/attack)


Honestly you can keep the idiot on assist and not need to micro manage him at all. Only instance i ever had an issue with that is on 2 bosses in CMs. That's it.

Abilities also bound to lesser used keys:
misc portals
armors
conjure mana gem
mount
revive
mobile bank
conjure table
food

[/quote]

All of these can be just clicked out of your spell book, and then instead of using binds for OOC things you could use them for other abilities that are situational. I guess I could say mounts, but those are easily just clicked on your bars, no need to take keybinding space

Spellsteal - When are you using this so often that you feel like it needs a permanent bind? Only time I've needed this so far is on H spoils...
EMFH - Err, when are you getting CC'd in a raid?
sheep - Again I've needed this on one fight so far - H paragons
slowfall - When is this used besides OOC falling off a cliff? Don't say malk, you can use blink on that for a lot less downtime.
ring of frost - same as everything above, when are you using this frequently? And again I can only say one fight it was ever needed (H Blackfuse for bombs)
symbiosis - I'm suprised druids give this to you, let alone you'd take the time to cast such an awful heal.
Arcane Intellect (for when someone drops) - can easily just be clicked on an action bar

If you want to talk about pvp, then maybe we can talk, but honestly, pvp not having a lot of binds means we're all going to have 5 spells we're casting which would just be godawful boring.
Theyve stated clear as day that there will be more movement restrictions to casters, not less.

Does that mean they are going to have more raid encounters where you can afford to stand still more? This would go against the overall direction over time of making raids require more and more movement.

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