Ret PvP: As bad as it sounds? Yes

Paladin
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02/13/2014 07:46 PMPosted by Chaz
02/13/2014 07:36 PMPosted by Holymez
PvE =/= PvP


The guy mentioned raids in his whine, perhaps you should read comments first


Maybe Mez agrees and all those heroic kills he was second on dps for his guild were just him being taken out of pity.
Vanilla and TBC: Ret not intended as endgame spec
S5: Ret strong, warrior sucks
S6: Ret OP, warrior pretty good
S7: Both OK, but many paladins and warriors switch to Prot
S8: Both lackluster without Shadowmourne, casters dominate
S9: Ret sucks, warrior OP
S10 & S11: Ret pretty good, warrior not so much
S12: Ret sucks, warrior OP
S13: Ret great with one comp, warrior lackluster
S14: Ret lackluster, warrior OP

Ret has been somewhat limited in comp variety, but a decent arena spec over the years. Unfortunately every time it has a bad season suddenly those who want to be a warrior or DK come out of the woodwork. If anything Ret should become more defined, should lose Rebuke and get back Cleanse magic dispel.

The bottom line is there are a lot of classes in this game. If you don't like the core design principles of paladin, I think you should play something else.
02/13/2014 09:18 PMPosted by Hoflerette
Vanilla and TBC: Ret not intended as endgame spec
S5: Ret strong, warrior sucks
S6: Ret OP, warrior pretty good
S7: Both OK, but many paladins and warriors switch to Prot
S8: Both lackluster without Shadowmourne, casters dominate
S9: Ret sucks, warrior OP
S10 & S11: Ret pretty good, warrior not so much
S12: Ret sucks, warrior OP
S13: Ret great with one comp, warrior lackluster
S14: Ret lackluster, warrior OP

Ret has been somewhat limited in comp variety, but a decent arena spec over the years. Unfortunately every time it has a bad season suddenly those who want to be a warrior or DK come out of the woodwork. If anything Ret should become more defined, should lose Rebuke and get back Cleanse magic dispel.

The bottom line is there are a lot of classes in this game. If you don't like the core design principles of paladin, I think you should play something else.
So we should be the only class in the game without either a silence, disarm or interrupt. /facepalm
Vanilla and TBC: Ret not intended as endgame spec
S5: Ret strong, warrior sucks
S6: Ret OP, warrior pretty good
S7: Both OK, but many paladins and warriors switch to Prot
S8: Both lackluster without Shadowmourne, casters dominate
S9: Ret sucks, warrior OP
S10 & S11: Ret pretty good, warrior not so much
S12: Ret sucks, warrior OP
S13: Ret great with one comp, warrior lackluster
S14: Ret lackluster, warrior OP

Ret has been somewhat limited in comp variety, but a decent arena spec over the years. Unfortunately every time it has a bad season suddenly those who want to be a warrior or DK come out of the woodwork. If anything Ret should become more defined, should lose Rebuke and get back Cleanse magic dispel.

The bottom line is there are a lot of classes in this game. If you don't like the core design principles of paladin, I think you should play something else.
02/13/2014 09:23 PMPosted by Agincourt
So we should be the only class in the game without either a silence, disarm or interrupt. /facepalm
I would be fine with that if we had are old wrath utility back anyday.
02/13/2014 08:13 PMPosted by Cayse
02/13/2014 07:46 PMPosted by Chaz
...

The guy mentioned raids in his whine, perhaps you should read comments first


Maybe Mez agrees and all those heroic kills he was second on dps for his guild were just him being taken out of pity.
, I didn't read what you quoted thoroughly enough, my apologies. Besides that, I don't know what that guy you quoted is talking about for ret pve, the spec is very useful, and can dish out numbers if played well.
I've been in a love/hate relationship with Ret since Scholomance was endgame content.

Ret heals are fine, even our damage is fine, what isn't fine is our ability to defend ourselves (anyone considering running away or kiting as a standard ret tactic doesn't understand the problem). Paladins by definition are supposed to be the most defensible melee classes in the game. Now I understand there needs to be balance, so I'm not asking for a bunch of passive abilities that make us arbitrarily harder to kill. Rather I would prefer that our holy power became something more interesting than a rip off of warlock mechanics. Adjust HP to be more like a Rage/Runic Power Bar, keeping our mana bar, which would have the following effects as it filled up:

HP Range 0-100

Every 1 point:
0.2% less damage taken from all sources (20% reduction at 100)

Every 5 points:
1% movement speed (20% at the top end; PoJ stacks)

Every 10 points:
2% more Holy Damage to Inquisition (20% added to the 40% Inq does now)

Every 20 points:
5% reduction in magic based healing of target affected by Truth (holy and nature based heals)

Every 100 points:
Templar's Verdict can be activated at a cost of 100 HP and 100% base mana, all cds are deactivated (cant use it with wings or guardian). TV becomes a 40 yard range spell that charges the paladin at the target with a 1 second disorient and a mighty swing of the Paladin's weapon for 500% weapon damage and an additional Holy Damage roughly equivalent to double the weapon damage. Guaranteed crit. TV would be a 1 minute cooldown and would stop HP from rebuilding while on cooldown (so more like a 90 second cooldown).

Now the exact numbers are of course debatable, but you get the idea.

Also, Inquisition would be built into Retribution Aura (removing paladin auras when every other class has auras now was retarded). The Aura would retain the 40% holy damage and 10% crit, but only the paladin would benefit from that part of the aura, the other part, which is shared, reduces shadow damage by 10% and shortens loss of control CCs in pvp by 25%. Devotion Aura can remain a cooldown, but should disable Ret Aura while on cooldown.

Another potential adjustment could be making Wings and Guardian into stances rather than cooldowns. Wings would add damage, but would remove the defensive bonuses to HP. Guardian would be the normal stance, and the Guardian of Ancient Kings itself would appear when the Ret takes shadow or unholy damage and do what it does now with an internal cooldown of 3 minutes.

Seal of Command should be a Ret passive ability that adds Seal of Justice effects to any active Seal. Righteousness would not aoe that effect however.

Now, my crazed soggy headed ideas are concluded for now.
02/13/2014 09:18 PMPosted by Hoflerette
Ret has been somewhat limited in comp variety, but a decent arena spec over the years. Unfortunately every time it has a bad season suddenly those who want to be a warrior or DK come out of the woodwork. If anything Ret should become more defined, should lose Rebuke and get back Cleanse magic dispel.

The bottom line is there are a lot of classes in this game. If you don't like the core design principles of paladin, I think you should play something else.


Somewhat? You can literally replace Retribution with almost any other DPS and in all likelihood the comp would be made better. And in terms of a good season, Retribution has never truly had one outside of the 3.0 fiasco which was probably the closest it ever came to breaking the Holy stranglehold. Even then in such an obviously OP state not one Ret Paladin made it to the finals, perhaps the best example that all the burst in the world ultimately means nothing against skilled opponents if you lack the most basic utility.

I'm sorry, but losing Rebuke in favor of gaining magic Cleanse back would be a huge leap backwards for Ret Paladins. With Holy already having a magic Cleanse in its possession, you would be sacrificing more of Rets inferior offensive utility in an attempt to mimic our heal spec, something Retribution is currently doing to a lesser degree and has caused its performance to suffer to a noticeable degree versus other melee. Trying to play like a Holy Paladin with damage is why Retribution is in the dismal shape it is in, and why it relies on better equipped DPS to do most of its work.

There is nothing wrong with the core design of Paladins, merely the core design of Retribution. It is still trying to play like a DPS version of a Holy Paladin without its group support power and fight with an offensive toolkit that is outclassed by most every other DPS and it's PvP toolset has failed to evolve with the rest of the game. Playing a different class will not fix that, nor will pretending it doesn't exist or deluding oneself that with enough skill you can be just as good as another DPS when it just isn't true.
02/14/2014 07:58 AMPosted by Randarion
Trying to play like a Holy Paladin with damage is why Retribution is in the dismal shape it is in, and why it relies on better equipped DPS to do most of its work.


/thread
02/14/2014 11:15 AMPosted by Franncesca
ret pvp in random bgs is okay and be tons of fun. Outside of that i'm not sure.
It's tons of fun because your opponents are undergeared in comparison. But when you come up against geared, good players we get destroyed.
You mean people who don't pvp as ret have valid opinions? @ lobster @ cayse GTFO.
If you EVER find a player with equal gear as you and equal skill you will 4 out of 5 times be dominated. No one fears ret because we are such a joke class when CCd. We have no dispel mechanics outside of bubble and it happens to be our 1 reliable survivability tool. Before you say ret is "fine" check arena representation, and then ACTUALLY PVP with ret. You PvE heroes are such morons.
Button to switch my toon isn't working but nice try. I actually do PvP on my toon.
Yeah, you pvp as holy.

Lower peak rating after triple matches played, less RBGs, less BGs, worlds less HKs.

Are you sure you actually pvp as ret as much as I do?

02/14/2014 07:58 AMPosted by Randarion
Somewhat? You can literally replace Retribution with almost any other DPS and in all likelihood the comp would be made better. And in terms of a good season, Retribution has never truly had one outside of the 3.0 fiasco which was probably the closest it ever came to breaking the Holy stranglehold.


Ret/Ret/FDK was a juggernaut of laughs in most of Cata.
Perhaps he did PvP as Ret and decided to go Holy as most Paladins who want to be truly competetive in PvP have at this point. Being able to reach relatively high ratings as a Ret rightly shows you as a player of consumate skill no doubt, but it is a thankless and self-defeating path where you do twice the work for the same reward as other DPS and can still be dropped just as easily in favor of a better equipped one.

The gear and skill requirements to really accomplish anything in PvP as a Ret Paladin are simply too high because Retribution's core design for PvP remains grossly out of date in an evolving game. Consequently, you have to play exponentially harder than other DPS to make up for the countless and obvious shortcoming only Retribution now seems to possess. Skilled in Ret PvP or not, the design is still broken and vital and necessary utility is still missing that would be bring it up to par with others.

Ret mediocrity is not an acceptable state of mind for me, which is why I will keep pushing for the developers to wake up and see the sad state they have left the spec in the world of PvP. If mediocrity is acceptable to you so be it, but please don't try to shout down others who wish for the spec to rise above it.
02/14/2014 02:45 PMPosted by Cayse
Ret/Ret/FDK was a juggernaut of laughs in most of Cata.


In lower tier arenas against fools who thought CC meant pizza instead of crowd control maybe, but in higher brackets against skilled players it tended to fail pretty readily.
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