Ret PvP: As bad as it sounds? Yes

Paladin
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02/14/2014 03:06 PMPosted by Randarion
02/14/2014 02:45 PMPosted by Cayse
Ret/Ret/FDK was a juggernaut of laughs in most of Cata.


In lower tier arenas against fools who thought CC meant pizza instead of crowd control maybe, but in higher brackets against skilled players it tended to fail pretty readily.


It was an R1 comp. As in, there was a Ret/Ret/FDK that was at R1 in more than one battlegroup. It was all over the ladders and the arena forums were insane because of triple dps ret comps. It was very easy, very strong, and actually was a bit worse if you tried to replace one ret with another spec.

3.0 is when ret was super good at lower tiers and dropped off somewhat higher up, even Blizzard's statement on why the nerfs happened was that ret was "a significant barrier to the upper ratings."
02/14/2014 07:58 AMPosted by Randarion
Somewhat? You can literally replace Retribution with almost any other DPS and in all likelihood the comp would be made better. And in terms of a good season, Retribution has never truly had one outside of the 3.0 fiasco which was probably the closest it ever came to breaking the Holy stranglehold. Even then in such an obviously OP state not one Ret Paladin made it to the finals, perhaps the best example that all the burst in the world ultimately means nothing against skilled opponents if you lack the most basic utility.

I vaguely recall there being a tournament during 3.0, and what you describe reminds me of a recent one prior to Intervene's root-break being moved back to Safeguard, in which top players who didn't main a warrior tried their luck with it. Even though the class was grossly overpowered they didn't do so hot. Then there was another tournament shortly after in which an actual warrior won the tournament with WMD.

I wouldn't put much stock in tournaments, though. Tell me, in which seasons did I say Ret was better or on par with warrior and in your experience this was not actually the case? You want to trade our hand spells for a powerful snare/root, more CC breaks, and fearsome consistent burst - all of which DK currently has, and yet DK has lagged behind for the entirety of MoP. By all means, ride that draenei of yours that you desperately want to be a paladin as far as it will take you next season. I predict you'll find yourself disappointed when it drops off just as early as your Ret.

Meanwhile I'll continue to suggest Ret return to its roots so it'll have a strong identity through the good seasons and the bad. I assure you we'll continue to have plenty of both, just like everyone else.
02/12/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Randarion
I know what people will say, I've heard all the arguments:

-'You're doing it wrong!'
-'It really boils down to skill!'
-'Ret is in the best place it's been for years!'
-'It's about using the right moves at the right time!'
etc etc etc...

It's none of those. Specs have high points and low points and Ret is currently at a low point. That doesn't mean you should homogenize its kit. Just look at Windwalker which was given all the melee tools and has thus far failed as a competitive spec. Then, as I've suggested, compare Ret's arena track record to that of Arms from Wrath (when the devs decided Ret was a legitimate spec) to current day. You'll find they've had a similar amount of success.
I doubt Ret is that bad. The only times I remember Ret being bad or worse (starting from Wrath, of course) was Cata's launch and when Word of Glory and Sacred Shield were nerfed. It has been fine otherwise, though I didn't play much of this expansion, so I could be wrong.

That being said, I would like it if Ret was taken in a more offensive direction, as I think it would be more interesting than the standard supportive style that I have seen from a lot of games. I have my own thoughts on how it could be done, among other changes, and I have mentioned them in other threads. The thing is, Blizzard has spent the last two expansions working on Ret's supportive mechanics, so it is unlikely that they are going to try a new direction.

My main concern would be survivability and lack of uniqueness between Ret and Holy. Low passive survivability combined with supportive mechanics just makes Rets primary focus targets, and as long as Ret shares so many mechanics with Holy they will naturally be compared, and when one is strong the other will look weaker in comparison.
I actually agree, but what your suggesting is a little bit too much , you are on the right track.

02/12/2014 01:54 PMPosted by Randarion
Retribution needs a ranged snare variation over a melee as it does not have an instantaneous means to close gaps like all other melee aside from Shaman, hence their ranged Frost Shock. As well, SoJ represents a noticeable DPS loss over Truth making the entire system very inefficient and ill-suited to a melee DPS like Retribution. Finally, giving Judgement the ability to snare would make it more difficult to kite Retribution when they no longer have to rely on a melee snare, something Retribution currently has noticeable trouble with with the loss of the Burden of Guilt talent.


while we did lose the talent , there is a glyph for it now to make judgement to exactly what you are suggesting , its shorter than it was before , maybe increase it to 4 seconds instead of 2 , but this already exists .

As to better changes to our damage , I think the WOTLK wings should be brought back and the crit modifier that we used to have built into hammer should come back .. SO like when you execute something , it actually dies , rather than hitting someone for 20k , while every other execute ability in the game hit's for 40k non crit without CD's .. I don't know about a crit chance for exorcism/Templar's that would be OP as hell , but making Exorcism benefit from mastery , would be a great start .

Playing a Ret since the end of BC , and sticking with it through the good and bad , I'd say Ret's are in a decent place offensively , we could use a sustained dps buff yes , but not so much that it would be .. well essentially what warrior's are right now lol :D. What paladin's do need more than anything else , is defensive CD's .. DP need's to be the flat 40% damage reduction that it used to be ,not the buble of wet paper sack that it is now . Why , because im sorry , but Sacred shield is a joke , Eternal flame ticks are garbage , and Selfless healer proc's are gimpy as hell , They work great for off healing , but as a defensive mechanism , it is so damn diminished , and the fact that it takes at least 2 judgements to make it even worth while , (another word's praying for a crit ) and still takes 12 seconds to get all three stacks ... So you end up kiting everything .. if I wanted to kite to survive other melee class , I would have played a caster . I'd love to sacrifice some utility over being defensively sound .. Because having to rely on DP with a 40% magic / 20% split , and Selfless procs there really is no way around it , its bad horrible even .. SO many other classes , have a heal mechanic , 2-3 defensive CD's , and they can stay applying pressure in a pvp scenario while going defensive . Hell I mean warriors get a higher % damage reduction from D stance , than we do with a 1 min CD .. I could make a list , but the reality is a lot of what this guy said is true , We don't need to completely trade our utility , but either buff it , or nerf it , so that we can be defensively sound again , reduce forbearance timer , Give us back our Mirror of Shieldwall through DP , Get ride of that pointless Sacred shield talent , and gives us back the Cheat death SS we had at the end of Cata , when it auto proc'd at 30% .. Something need's to be done ..

TL:DR version , , buff our sustained damage a little bit through mastery or something , nothing game breaking , maybe give us our crit modifier back into hammer we used to have , ( even if we do lose hammer on Wings there is enough damage and holy power generation going out through Exorcism, CS, and Judgement to not even need hammer with wings up with Holy avenger . I'd much rather my finisher actually finish the job rather than what it does now without CD's up . You could even take out the talent for DP that no one who knows better uses,replace it something a bit more useful for holy . Then build getting access to hammer on wings into the talent Sanc Wrath in the 75 talent teir and then give us back divine purpose proc's with a lower % chance to proc , to offset three holy power generators and still give us a DPS boost , all the while giving us a RNG style oh !@#$ button . Because God knows we need a defensive CD besides bubble , that is more reliable than DP's split physical/magical damage split , and having to rely on kiting and Selfless healer if you get in trouble and let's be honest , if you don't have bubble and your fighting another melee that knows what they are doing , you are a goner . Even using Holy power to WOG , your sacrificing your damage , all the while , they are killing you faster than you can generate enough HP to keep yourself up , without CDs , and again , who want's to pop there DPS CD's to have to heal themselves lol ..

Or do us all a favor and bring the Wrath pally back ....
02/16/2014 12:33 AMPosted by Daedrian
SO like when you execute something , it actually dies , rather than hitting someone for 20k , while every other execute ability in the game hit's for 40k non crit without CD's


Why do people always repeat this dribble? Hammer of Wrath hits plenty hard already, but it's not hitting like a Warrior's Execute or a Destruction Warlock's Shadowburn because Hammer of Wrath:

-- Grants us Holy Power, while other execute mechanics typically consume their class' resource.
-- Has a 30 yard range, compared to the restrictive melee ranges of many execute attacks for melee DPS.
-- Can be used regardless of a target's health through a proc or cooldown at its full power. (Avenging Wrath)

Other execute mechanics may share a few of the above traits with Hammer of Wrath, but no other execute mechanic has all three of the above traits available to it. That is why Hammer of Wrath doesn't hit as hard as some other execute mechanics, but that's hardly an issue when Hammer of Wrath is our hardest-hitting Holy Power builder.
For those that "doubt ret is that bad" take a look at the current ret rankings. It's extremely obvious that there is little to no reason to bring a ret over a number of other classes and some other hybrids. There's no question that warriors for example outperform us in every aspect aside from team support and utility(we have minor offheals, bops, sacs, freedoms etc) BUT let's take a look at HOW rets are really doing in high rated arena.

View this page for example
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-bestplayers-2-3-0-0-0-3-0-0.html
- It shows that a mere 8 ret players in the WORLD are above 2400 this season.

Now let's take a look at arms warriors
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stats-bestplayers-1-1-0-0-0-3-0-0.html

- The entire first page from 3v3 top to bottom is above 2400 in 3s, that's over 100 warriors / players. Just give you an idea of how out of control class balance is right now, you can compare holy paladins AND rets together vs warrior rankings and there are still over twice as many warriors above 2400 than all paladin specs.

Other highly desirable classes and specs (frost mage, hunter, warlock) are all in between 40-60 2400+ players out there. The worst part? Blizzard is okay with this and has yet to address the issue.

This is how 2k+ arenas work with ret, run, los los los los los, set up cc w/o enemy trinkets off cd, burst and hope for a kill, run, los los los wait for cds, burst hope for kill. While playing in the ret in the past I've always had to utilize pillar humping to a certain extent it's never been to this degree, and frankly it's embarrassing.

We all know Ghostcrawler's parents were killed by paladins, but come blizzard.
02/16/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Litebulb
The entire first page from 3v3 top to bottom is above 2400 in 3s, that's over 100 warriors / players. Just give you an idea of how out of control class balance is right now, you can compare holy paladins AND rets together vs warrior rankings and there are still over twice as many warriors above 2400 than all paladin specs.


Last I checked Arms is pretty ridiculous right now. Ret could use some work in Arena, I agree, but comparing it to such an obvious outlier is not the best way to start off your argument.
02/16/2014 11:19 AMPosted by Sathen
02/16/2014 10:58 AMPosted by Litebulb
The entire first page from 3v3 top to bottom is above 2400 in 3s, that's over 100 warriors / players. Just give you an idea of how out of control class balance is right now, you can compare holy paladins AND rets together vs warrior rankings and there are still over twice as many warriors above 2400 than all paladin specs.


Last I checked Arms is pretty ridiculous right now. Ret could use some work in Arena, I agree, but comparing it to such an obvious outlier is not the best way to start off your argument.


The comparison was to indicate that blizzard has no problem with certain specs (ret) being very under represented at high end pvp competition. That itself in whole is the problem that I would like to have addressed one of these days by blizzard. I know that the devs cannot listen to every /cry thread out there claiming x class is OP, but they are just slapping us in the face now. I'll remind all of us of a tweet a few months earlier in the season

"I second this! Why are there zero balance changes this season? Bit frustrating.."
Blizzard (Holinka) replies
"We've made the change to Intervene."

/golfclap

I agree with avarice as well, I feel like a simple buff could help our situation in pvp substantially with the nerfbats going out of course.
02/16/2014 11:24 AMPosted by Avaricexx
As the highest rated ( current exp) ret who consistently posts on these forums my input is:

This post is filled with people who truly do not understand ret issues.

Ret needs: global nerfs to rogues and Magi as well as hunters and warriors.

One buff: divine protection baseline prevents 40% magic and 40% physical damage.


While Ret needs more survivability, they will not make that change to Divine Protection without nerfing its CD. No other melee has access to a 40% damage reduction cool down, on a one minute CD, that can be reduced to a 30 second CD. And if the change was made, it couldn't be baseline, or else it would mess with Holy and more importantly Prot. It would have to be Ret specific.
02/16/2014 11:45 AMPosted by Litebulb
The comparison was to indicate that blizzard has no problem with certain specs (ret) being very under represented at high end pvp competition. That itself in whole is the problem that I would like to have addressed one of these days by blizzard. I know that the devs cannot listen to every /cry thread out there claiming x class is OP, but they are just slapping us in the face now. I'll remind all of us of a tweet a few months earlier in the season


But it doesn't indicate that at all, it indicates a problem with Arms Warriors and that they need to nerfed, along with other outliers.
02/16/2014 11:55 AMPosted by Avaricexx
No good ret plays 30 second wall vs a melee cleave or a hunter team.
To fight a wizard cleave you use 30 second wall and no glyph.
If you want to compare classes warriors have a 25% dstance 100% of the time.


Again, that is an indication of Arms being overpowered, they shouldn't be able to sit in Defensive Stance like that. And comparing actually damage reduction cool downs, Warrior's Shield Wall has a three minute CD compared to Divine Protection's one minute. Your change would have both at the same strength.
I wonder how rich I'd be if I got a penny for everytime I read "I have played my class since X expansion and I have Y arena rating and..."
02/16/2014 01:58 AMPosted by Areos
-- Can be used regardless of a target's health through a proc or cooldown at its full power. (Avenging Wrath


Can be used on a proc? Obviously you don't play Ret very often . There is no proc for Hammer , it's used solely during Avenging wrath which I addressed , or when the target is at 20% health , its an execute , that well doesn't execute , I also didn't say that it needed to hit harder I said that I needed the crit modifier placed back into as an internal talent like it used to be , which was a base 60% crit on top of your pre-existing crit .. Therefore because of it's damage only really being good either when you are raid buffed , or when wings are up .. Any other time it doesn't hit for more 15-20k non crit ..

As to comparing a paladin's hammer , to a warrior's execute in the fact that it spend's the rage they have acquired , this is also done in the same way as it having a 6 second CD .. IE you can't compare the 2 in that sense . As for it being range , that doesn't matter , its an execute and paladin's having spells/ranged attacks are just the way our class works , it doesn't matter that a warrior's execute is melee range or not , the matter is that it is an execute , and it doesn't execute . Hammer hit's hard when Wings are up( There is no proc) , which is our "niche" , which makes no sense because it damn near makes all other holy power generating abilities obsolete Via Holy avenger . You hammer , TV , you CS TV , then your Hammer is off of CD , TV again , see my point? Unless the enemy has gained distance in which you would exorcism or Judgement .. Lastly even trying to compare a pally's damage to a warrior in anyway shape or form is laughable we don't work the same , as they have damn near great gap closer's now , and monstrous damage sustained and burst . , but my point was the hammer mechanic I was suggesting would be mirror of that it was in WOTLK .. When Ret was at it's finest point ...
omg areos is a woman. what will i do without that foppish hair in my life? </3
omg areos is a woman. what will i do without that foppish hair in my life? </3


Yeah, it surprised me too lol.

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