Simplifying currency? That's the grand plan?

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http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/blizzard-plan-strip-currency-systems-world-warcraft-raiding-warlords-draenor

“We are planning on simplifying our currency structure,” lead encounter designer Ion Hazzikostas told PCGamesN.

In the current system, players running the latest raid bosses earn valor points, while those playing lower tier raids and dungeons earn justice points. Both can be exchanged for gear if raid bosses fail to drop the loot you’re after - but Blizzard believe they’ve become unnecessary.

“The traditional role of valor was to offer compensation for bad luck - and that goes all the way back to badges in Burning Crusade,” said Hazzikostas. “Where you’d go, ‘Okay, I’ve run this raid 15 times now and never seen a shoulder piece dropped - so I’ll take this currency and buy a shoulder piece for myself’.

“The bonus rolls system that we have these days actually goes a long way towards helping counteract that.”


Just quoted the main point I'm going to be talking about.

SERIOUSLY? Bonus rolls, the thing that does absolutely nothing to help bad luck 99% of the time, is your fall back? That's why you are going to strip currency down? PvP gets to keep their currency mainly because RNG won't fit there, fine I get that. You want to strip away my way to farm for gear, that's at a lesser iLvL mind you, just because you like letting the RNG control things.

The RNG is horrible. No, it's beyond horrible. It's what horrible looks at to be less bad. It's the bane of every raider's existence simply because the WoW's RNG SUCKS. It blows chunks. It is horribly designed and is a time sink to the extreme. It is what causes people to head desk after weeks upon weeks of farming and still not receiving an upgrade. You gave us bonus rolls BECAUSE you know how crappy the RNG is and yet you still used the SAME RNG system for them so it's STILL a horrible thing and doesn't payout.

I get most of the changes you are making. I get the need for some of them because it's just useless most times. "I'm going to go reforge to hit that one % in hit, and if I don't hit it exactly I'm going to go reforge again, and again, and again until I do." Got it, waste of gold and time to keep having to do that even with other websites. But this? This change is beyond stupid.

Unless you're planning to revamp crafting beyond the pitiful excuse it is now into what it should have been from the start then this change is more of a detriment to PvE play then any before. Unless I can invest resources into Tailoring, Blacksmithing, Leather Working, and the others to get decent gear to make up for the horrible nature of the RNG this will basically halt all efforts I make to play end game raid content anymore since it'll be pointless. And by decent I don't mean a pair of pants and a belt at the end. I mean a FULL set of gear. The crafting proff's should have been that way from the start. What kind of idiotic tailor goes, "hmm...I'm only going to learn to make really good pants and nothing else. Yep only pants for me!" Blacksmithing gets to make a full set of weapons. They aren't top of the class heroic quality but they get a FULL selection to make. Do that for every other crafting profession.

"But wait Ash," you might be thinking, "Won't garrison's have a way to send your followers out to run dungeon's and raids for gear for you?" Yes, with the same RNG system in place. You also will be funneling most gear you get INTO the followers so that they actually CAN do the dungeon's and raids and won't fail them. It's not going to help things at all. Even with the "random" drops from quest rewards it still won't make up for it.

Valor, and Justice to a lesser degree, is there to be the answer to RNG suckage. You've recognized the RNG sucks from day 1 and have continued to give us ways to counteract that. Why then, after knowing it and embracing it and giving us badges and points and everything else, are you going back to this setup knowing full well how bad it is?

If you're still going to follow through on this either,

1. Take them away and let me craft gear like you should have been letting me do from the start that almost every other MMO let's me do.

2. Take them away but alter the RNG so it sucks less. In this case completely redo how it rolls for rewards.

Don't change what's not broke simply because you feel it's time for a change. "If it's working why screw with it?" Yes it's a long rant that covers multiple topics but Blizzard has been dancing around these things for years and I'm tired of dealing with it. They want to change a huge number of things for WoD, make these few things part of it.
03/02/2014 08:02 AMPosted by Ashendal
Don't change what's not broke simply because you feel it's time for a change. "If it's working why screw with it?"


Because it's not working how they want it to work. So they're sticking with a system that does work how they want it to work and scrapping the one that doesn't work how they want it to work. Simple!
Take away currency?

Nope.

Take away RNG. It's an obsolete artifact.

The first set of polyhedral dice was developed specifically for Dungeons and Dragons in 1974, using a set of platonic solid shapes manufactured for a science course. This obsolete "tool" was dragged into computer games and called RNG. It's the cornerstone of PvE in this game and IMO is OBSOLETE and should be removed because all it does is introduce Fake Difficulty.

When you play a video game, you expect be able to use your skills as a gamer to beat whatever challenges the game throws at you. If the challenges require a lot of skill, the game is hard to win. If it doesn't require much skill, it should be an easy game.

However, in Warcraft, a game in which most PvE is relatively easy, the task is made quite hard thanks to RNG - Random Drops which result in a player lingering in an area for a long period of time trying to get the drop. Unlocking a door by solving a color puzzle the first time is real difficulty. Unlocking it by pressing a button until you get the right number is not. Killing a heroic boss the first time is real difficulty. Pecking at that same boss each week hoping it will one day drop the one item you need to complete your set is not. Instead, it is fake difficulty.

Just because a gameplay feature is annoying and frustrating does not make it difficult.

RNG doesn't make PvE "harder".

It just makes it stupid.

Please, Blizz... instead of using RNG to extend gameplay, how about improving the boss AI (artificial intelligence) to the point where the encounters become sufficiently dynamic that players wish to repeat them - not as a Pavlovian response to RNG - but because they want to. Don't continue to resort to obsolete polyhedral dice to keep players coming back for more.

IMO, Blizzard should strive to make PvE just as repeatable as PvP where players find ancient maps like AV, WSG, AB, etc infinitely re-playable because each time you play, you face a dynamic and unpredictable opponent - as opposed to scripted and static PvE.

Let's pump some intelligence into that PvE AI - let's wake them up (and dump the crutch of RNG)
They've been pruning various currencies for years.

I'm not sure I'm happy with valor/conquest changes. But I'll wait and see what alternate forms of advancement are out there for people prior to reacting to anything.
“We think we can take the bonus rolls system and make it a little bit more intelligent, so that it tries to avoid giving you duplicate loots - and allow that to be the way players counteract bad RNG,” explained Hazzikostas. “It removes a little bit of the grind and a little bit of the awkwardness of the current valor system.”

If you gonna quote a source quote the whole thing not just the part you want to take out of context.
03/02/2014 08:15 AMPosted by Egram
“We think we can take the bonus rolls system and make it a little bit more intelligent, so that it tries to avoid giving you duplicate loots - and allow that to be the way players counteract bad RNG,” explained Hazzikostas. “It removes a little bit of the grind and a little bit of the awkwardness of the current valor system.”

If you gonna quote a source quote the whole thing not just the part you want to take out of context.


It's like a falcon punch in text form.
They don't have to scrap RNG on loot drops altogether, they need to make it smarter. If you already have an item on the loot table and it is unique, it shouldn't drop for you again. If you have two of an item (like weapons), those shouldn't drop for you. You might not get something, but at least what you do get you can use. To put it another way, if something drops for you, you should be able to use it. (Barring lower level same slot drops, that can't be helped, but if you keep the item then next time it shouldn't be on the loot list)
03/02/2014 08:14 AMPosted by Crepe
They've been pruning various currencies for years.

I'm not sure I'm happy with valor/conquest changes. But I'll wait and see what alternate forms of advancement are out there for people prior to reacting to anything.


A very balanced and level headed reply. What's the world of warcraft coming to?
03/02/2014 08:09 AMPosted by Stendarr

Because it's not working how they want it to work. So they're sticking with a system that does work how they want it to work and scrapping the one that doesn't work how they want it to work. Simple!


They are sticking to a broken and ludicrous system that functions in a horrible and non-functioning way most of the time. They keep touting that they want to "fix the broken things and the things that just make no sense" and yet continue to avoid the one thing in their game that makes the least amount of sense and is the most broken.

No, loot pinata's are bad. You shouldn't get everything in 1 single run through. You also shouldn't have to take months of time on 1 character to get 1 item that you're going to have to raid to replace the next week when the next tier comes out. Then you spend another few months raiding for 1 item that just won't drop.

I get the need for a time sink. Why not instead of focusing on making the sink even more horrible that they expand other options that would take time to do, farming mats/daily cooldowns, and fixing some of the systems that they already have and that work as a time sink in other games while providing a way to get decent gear?

Like I said it doesn't have to be warforged heroic quality. But if I have crappy luck like usual in Flex or LFR on my characters and for 2 months get nothing. At the same time I could be doing a daily, that way after those two months I've been able to craft 3 pieces of gear that's a little below Flex iLvL but have gear instead of gold, gold, gold, gold, wand that's not anything I can use, gold, gold, gold, shoulder that's worse then the one I have already, gold, gold, gold, gold, gold.

I'd take BoA stuff if it meant that I can do dailies and with each raid tier released a new tier of craftable stuff is released that counteracts bad luck. THAT is how you put in options, not stripping away currency and claiming that bonus rolls help. They don't. Stop lying.

03/02/2014 08:15 AMPosted by Egram
“We think we can take the bonus rolls system and make it a little bit more intelligent, so that it tries to avoid giving you duplicate loots - and allow that to be the way players counteract bad RNG,” explained Hazzikostas. “It removes a little bit of the grind and a little bit of the awkwardness of the current valor system.”

If you gonna quote a source quote the whole thing not just the part you want to take out of context.


That's covered. You can't make an RNG more intelligent. I've been trying. It's only possible if you tell it what to drop. If you leave a computerized RNG alone it won't function like you want it to. You can give it all the shiny trappings you want but at the end of the day unless you TELL it to drop X on the first encounter and ONLY X then it will roll and usually come up with P or S, or A.

They can tell me that till they are blue in the face but after dealing with it on a daily basis in my job I'll laugh at it every single time.
Currency is a boring progression model for a few reasons.

One, you know you have to wait X amount of weeks to obtain something you want. RNG could be the first time you go or the last.

Two, you know the content you are doing doesn't really matter insofar as you can simply do *ugh* dailies to obtain the same gear. This trivializes raid content in a big way.

Three, You are basically limited to one gear drop every X number of weeks that you do dailies and raids. With RNG you can theoretically obtain multiple upgrades in the same week.
03/02/2014 08:19 AMPosted by Ashendal
You also shouldn't have to take months of time on 1 character to get 1 item that you're going to have to raid to replace the next week when the next tier comes out.


That kind of grind is the backbone of an mmo. It's what keeps people playing.
03/02/2014 08:22 AMPosted by Orcmourne
Currency is a boring progression model for a few reasons.

One, you know you have to wait X amount of weeks to obtain something you want. RNG could be the first time you go or the last.

Two, you know the content you are doing doesn't really matter insofar as you can simply do *ugh* dailies to obtain the same gear. This trivializes raid content in a big way.

Three, You are basically limited to one gear drop every X number of weeks that you do dailies and raids. With RNG you can theoretically obtain multiple upgrades in the same week.


If it's a boring model why was it instituted in the first place and has been in place for years? It was put in place because of player grief during the first iteration of the game. When the second came along they saw how frustrating it was and attempted to fix it. If they've attempted it for so long leave the "boring" in there since obviously it's alright with players.

That's also the problem with the RNG. I have spent hours upon hours with multiple characters doing things RNG related. It's boring. If I do the same raid on 6 different characters is it "new and exciting!" or is it as boring on the second one as it is on the sixth? Having another option is good in that it allows you to run the raid over and over and over. If after 4 weeks of trying nothing has dropped you'll still be able to get something for your trouble and not sit there in old gear like a lump.

03/02/2014 08:23 AMPosted by Stendarr
03/02/2014 08:19 AMPosted by Ashendal
You also shouldn't have to take months of time on 1 character to get 1 item that you're going to have to raid to replace the next week when the next tier comes out.


That kind of grind is the backbone of an mmo. It's what keeps people playing.


And how is that grind any different from grinding mats for a profession or grinding points for an item? It's not.
03/02/2014 08:19 AMPosted by Ashendal
That's covered. You can't make an RNG more intelligent. I've been trying. It's only possible if you tell it what to drop. If you leave a computerized RNG alone it won't function like you want it to. You can give it all the shiny trappings you want but at the end of the day unless you TELL it to drop X on the first encounter and ONLY X then it will roll and usually come up with P or S, or A.


So you can't tell it that if X drops then for this point forward give X a 25% less chance and still give P,S, or A the original rate.

That's the kind of system they have for the hairlooms off garrosh.
03/02/2014 08:28 AMPosted by Egram
03/02/2014 08:19 AMPosted by Ashendal
That's covered. You can't make an RNG more intelligent. I've been trying. It's only possible if you tell it what to drop. If you leave a computerized RNG alone it won't function like you want it to. You can give it all the shiny trappings you want but at the end of the day unless you TELL it to drop X on the first encounter and ONLY X then it will roll and usually come up with P or S, or A.


So you can't tell it that if X drops then for this point forward give X a 25% less chance and still give P,S, or A the original rate.


You can. And I have. And I've sat there and watched X show up 90% of the time instead of 100%. Computers are stupid in the sense that they have to operate in a certain way. Even with something in place to lower amounts of chances if it's in the roll pile it will roll on it. It can also get "stuck" in that it gets locked into a grouping of numbers, say 20-45, for a period of time for no other reason then the internal numbers keep throwing it up. There's no rational reason for it.

In testing I've had a computer RNG roll 1-100. I've set it so that if it rolls 10-30 at any point the chance to roll 10-30 is lowered by 20% each time to a max of 80% chance to not roll it. How many times did I get 10-30 out of 100 rolls? 64%. That should not have been mathematically possible using pencil and paper after it had rolled it 20 out of the first 40 times. But yet it happened. The same thing happens in WoW all the time with RNG and yet even with mitigation factors in play it will STILL happen.
03/02/2014 08:28 AMPosted by Ashendal
And how is that grind any different from grinding mats for a profession or grinding points for an item? It's not.


Because having it be a matter of chance based on an RNG actually feels like a game. You go into a dungeon, and if luck comes through for you, you get an awesome reward. And it's all fun and exciting. With valor and justice though, what do you do? You put in a certain amount of time, you receive currency, you use currency to buy an item. That's not a game, that's a job! I already have one of those! I like the excitement of an RNG.
03/02/2014 08:33 AMPosted by Stendarr
03/02/2014 08:28 AMPosted by Ashendal
And how is that grind any different from grinding mats for a profession or grinding points for an item? It's not.


Because having it be a matter of chance based on an RNG actually feels like a game. You go into a dungeon, and if luck comes through for you, you get an awesome reward. And it's all fun and exciting. With valor and justice though, what do you do? You put in a certain amount of time, you receive currency, you use currency to buy an item. That's not a game, that's a job! I already have one of those! I like the excitement of an RNG.


Some of us don't. Some of us hate having to rely on random. By taking away our options it takes away our sense of progression. You may like your way of doing it. WoW was not built with one player's mindset for play styles. If it had been there would only be raids. There would be no PvP, no crafting, no AH, no flying. Nothing but quest -> raid. Since there isn't that proves that multiple ways of doing something is considered. By removing currency and not providing any other way but RNG they take that multitude of options away.

I'm not saying you can't partake in only RNG and feel great about it. I don't like it when you tell me, "deal with it. They are taking it away." That's wrong.

03/02/2014 08:19 AMPosted by Ashendal
You can't make an RNG more intelligent. I've been trying.


Then you suck at programming. Pseudo code follows

function rollloot(struct * loottable, int playerid)

struct * rolltable = alloc()

for item in loottable
if item.weapon
if playerCanDuelWield(playerid) && playerNumItem(item, playerid) < 2
addItemToTable(rolltable, item)
elsif item.unique && !playerNumItem(item, playerid)
addItemToTable(rolltable, item)
else
addItemToTable(rolltable, item)

int wonitem = rand() % rolltable.length

return getItem(rolltable, wonitem)

Blizzard can very well make RNG more intelligent. They choose not to.


So you play with flash as well. That's not making the table more intelligent. That's adding more things to the table while still allowing for the possibility of RNG "stick" and providing only gold. Yes that adds more items but it does not add more chances at the items it's adding. THAT is the issue with the RNG and your code block.
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03/02/2014 08:15 AMPosted by Egram
“We think we can take the bonus rolls system and make it a little bit more intelligent, so that it tries to avoid giving you duplicate loots - and allow that to be the way players counteract bad RNG,” explained Hazzikostas. “It removes a little bit of the grind and a little bit of the awkwardness of the current valor system.”

If you gonna quote a source quote the whole thing not just the part you want to take out of context.


That's covered. You can't make an RNG more intelligent. I've been trying. It's only possible if you tell it what to drop. If you leave a computerized RNG alone it won't function like you want it to. You can give it all the shiny trappings you want but at the end of the day unless you TELL it to drop X on the first encounter and ONLY X then it will roll and usually come up with P or S, or A.

They can tell me that till they are blue in the face but after dealing with it on a daily basis in my job I'll laugh at it every single time.


Umm, they are telling it what not to drop so you get the upgrade you want more frequently with your coin roll. That coupled with the increased chance to get loot on a boss when using a coin every week does lower the chance of bad rng substantially.
03/02/2014 08:19 AMPosted by Ashendal
You can't make an RNG more intelligent.

They're not. They're making the intelligent bonus-roll system more intelligent. The bonus rolls aren't purely RNG and it sounds like they're working to make them even less RNG.

Instead of trying to find things to be mad about, really stop and think about what the system is now and what the devs are trying to do with it. There will always be some RNG in the game, but if they're working to make gear acquisition for raids easier without grinding dailies (which is what it sounds like to me) wouldn't you want to support that?
03/02/2014 08:33 AMPosted by Ashendal
You can. And I have. And I've sat there and watched X show up 90% of the time instead of 100%. Computers are stupid in the sense that they have to operate in a certain way. Even with something in place to lower amounts of chances if it's in the roll pile it will roll on it. It can also get "stuck" in that it gets locked into a grouping of numbers, say 20-45, for a period of time for no other reason then the internal numbers keep throwing it up. There's no rational reason for it.

In testing I've had a computer RNG roll 1-100. I've set it so that if it rolls 10-30 at any point the chance to roll 10-30 is lowered by 20% each time to a max of 80% chance to not roll it. How many times did I get 10-30 out of 100 rolls? 64%. That should not have been mathematically possible using pencil and paper after it had rolled it 20 out of the first 40 times. But yet it happened. The same thing happens in WoW all the time with RNG and yet even with mitigation factors in play it will STILL happen.


Even on the off chance this is all true (this is the internet you can say you have done all this). Can you put a link to a blizz post saying this is the ONLY change they are making to loot for all WoD to put this one change in context for the bigger picture of looting. No you cant because that post is not out there IT WAY TO EARLY to say the sky is falling bout every little post.

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