Simplifying currency? That's the grand plan?

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03/02/2014 09:09 AMPosted by Grug
RNG is fine, up to a point. But If I am wearing the super pants of coolness, and I win the super pants of coolness again in LFR and then use a bonus roll and win the super pants of coolness again, SOMETHING IS WRONG.


Then get out of LFR and into a raid group where each boss drops loots, and just because you don't get a upgrade. There is still a chance that part of your group will get an upgrade, and with that upgrade your group will get better as a whole and progress farther in to content.
I agree 100% with you. Valor and Justice should not be removed. I don't know if you stated this (didn't read the entire monologue just enough to get the gist) but my main had been questing to get a chest and a trink for quite a while. Every damn time I killed that boss and used that bonus roll, though, it not only wouldn't drop, it would give me something I already have. I managed to collect 5 necklaces but not a single chest; three rings no trink. Hell yeah the bonus roll thing is out of whack. At least with valor I can say "Okay, this vendor DOES sell a chest piece and I can buy it until I get the good one." Relying on bonus rolls puts me in a bad way.
Not to mention, for whatever reason, my alts seem cursed with bad luck with loot in general. My secondary main has ran some rather painful lfrs and flexes yet has not managed to get much in the way of gear. It's very alt-unfriendly imo.
We all hate RNG!
03/02/2014 09:21 AMPosted by Egram


Then get out of LFR and into a raid group where each boss drops loots, and just because you don't get a upgrade. There is still a chance that part of your group will get an upgrade, and with that upgrade your group will get better as a whole and progress farther in to content.


And you are still at the RNG's mercy there. If it decides for three weeks that there is one item for the mages and you have two mages in your guild then one gets it and the other stays undergeared. How is that any different from LFR/Flex?

03/02/2014 09:24 AMPosted by Toxairis
I agree 100% with you. Valor and Justice should not be removed. I don't know if you stated this (didn't read the entire monologue just enough to get the gist) but my main had been questing to get a chest and a trink for quite a while. Every damn time I killed that boss and used that bonus roll, though, it not only wouldn't drop, it would give me something I already have. I managed to collect 5 necklaces but not a single chest; three rings no trink. Hell yeah the bonus roll thing is out of whack. At least with valor I can say "Okay, this vendor DOES sell a chest piece and I can buy it until I get the good one." Relying on bonus rolls puts me in a bad way.
Not to mention, for whatever reason, my alts seem cursed with bad luck with loot in general. My secondary main has ran some rather painful lfrs and flexes yet has not managed to get much in the way of gear. It's very alt-unfriendly imo.


It's in there but just kinda spread out. And yes, it's incredibly painful. That's why I'm all for other options to get gear. And it doesn't have to be as powerful as raid gear, that's what some people are missing.
It's funky to see in today's WoW getting gear is everything. The game has revolved around that. You do nothing else, you don't care for anything else, but just upgrading your gear.

All the years backwards we did raids and dungeons because awesome, exciting and all that in an RPG, we did 20 and 40 man raids, and had to share the loot from a boss between everyone. Boy do I remember the times something dropped that me and some of my mates could use, and we were so excited about this new exotic and interesting piece of equipment. Getting that one piece was the cherry on the top.
But now, the token system was implemented in BC, and now everyone even has personal loot rolls. You can even get BONUS loot rolls.

I am glad we are atleast stepping back with the token system.

But I can very clearly see, this does not please the ''Give me everything now'' -generation.
03/02/2014 09:25 AMPosted by Ashendal
And you are still at the RNG's mercy there. If it decides for three weeks that there is one item for the mages and you have two mages in your guild then one gets it and the other stays undergeared. How is that any different from LFR/Flex?


Than that's how it goes, and the week after that we jump back in a kill all the bosses we can to get more loot for the group.
Randomness is anti-fun. After I've killed the same boss multiple times, I should have a way to work toward guaranteeing the drop I want.

I could handle a random loot system if it was designed in such a way that I could eventually have a 100% chance to obtain a particular item I'm looking for.

I don't want "everything now." I want one thing, some amount of time from now, after a reasonable amount of effort, with a 100% chance. Then I want to start again.
03/02/2014 09:21 AMPosted by Egram
03/02/2014 09:09 AMPosted by Grug
RNG is fine, up to a point. But If I am wearing the super pants of coolness, and I win the super pants of coolness again in LFR and then use a bonus roll and win the super pants of coolness again, SOMETHING IS WRONG.


Then get out of LFR and into a raid group where each boss drops loots, and just because you don't get a upgrade. There is still a chance that part of your group will get an upgrade, and with that upgrade your group will get better as a whole and progress farther in to content.


Alright, I'm in a normal raid wearing my extra super pants of coolness. Guess what? Those drop for the raid. That's fine, I use my coin. I win extra super pants of coolness. Now I have two pairs...Getting out of LFR doesn't fix the issue that using coins should not give you duplicate loot unless its something that is non unique and you don't own two of them.
It's a shame, really. I don't just enjoy VP just because it can make up for my bad luck, but because it adds a non-RNG aspect to my gear progression. It works as a goal for me, something I can physically look at and feel excited for ("just 200 more VP and I can replace these crappy legs!").

The bonus roll system just adds more randomness on top of randomness. There's nothing wrong with RNG being an aspect of our character progression, but some of us also like rewards that we can see how close we are to obtaining them.
Badges were one of the worst ideas Blizzard ever came up with. For many Guilds in TBC the introduction of Badge gear (which could be farmed in outdated and weaker content) effectively killed their progression. It became hard to convince players to learn fights and deal with wipes when equivalent gear could be had by face rolling Heroics and Kara.

I do agree though that the issue of bad luck streaks is real and I don't know if Charms can ever be the only the answer like Watcher claims. I can see what they're trying to do and I agree with the philosophy but it's a tough to balance a system so reliant on RNG.
03/02/2014 09:58 AMPosted by Indyana
Badges were one of the worst ideas Blizzard ever came up with. For many Guilds in TBC the introduction of Badge gear (which could be farmed in outdated and weaker content) effectively killed their progression. It became hard to convince players to learn fights and deal with wipes when equivalent gear could be had by face rolling Heroics and Kara.

I do agree though that the issue of bad luck streaks is real and I don't know if Charms can ever be the only the answer like Watcher claims. I can see what they're trying to do and I agree with the philosophy but it's a tough to balance a system so reliant on RNG.


Good job ignoring the positive benefits of things like the points system whereby people were able to catch up to current content more easily.

Shifting towards RNG as a preferred loot gain system essentially forces people into older content to get to current content, i.e. gating.
03/02/2014 08:11 AMPosted by Nymph
Take away currency?

Nope.

Take away RNG. It's an obsolete artifact.

The first set of polyhedral dice was developed specifically for Dungeons and Dragons in 1974, using a set of platonic solid shapes manufactured for a science course. This obsolete "tool" was dragged into computer games and called RNG. It's the cornerstone of PvE in this game and IMO is OBSOLETE and should be removed because all it does is introduce Fake Difficulty.

When you play a video game, you expect be able to use your skills as a gamer to beat whatever challenges the game throws at you. If the challenges require a lot of skill, the game is hard to win. If it doesn't require much skill, it should be an easy game.

However, in Warcraft, a game in which most PvE is relatively easy, the task is made quite hard thanks to RNG - Random Drops which result in a player lingering in an area for a long period of time trying to get the drop. Unlocking a door by solving a color puzzle the first time is real difficulty. Unlocking it by pressing a button until you get the right number is not. Killing a heroic boss the first time is real difficulty. Pecking at that same boss each week hoping it will one day drop the one item you need to complete your set is not. Instead, it is fake difficulty.

Just because a gameplay feature is annoying and frustrating does not make it difficult.

RNG doesn't make PvE "harder".

It just makes it stupid.

Please, Blizz... instead of using RNG to extend gameplay, how about improving the boss AI (artificial intelligence) to the point where the encounters become sufficiently dynamic that players wish to repeat them - not as a Pavlovian response to RNG - but because they want to. Don't continue to resort to obsolete polyhedral dice to keep players coming back for more.

IMO, Blizzard should strive to make PvE just as repeatable as PvP where players find ancient maps like AV, WSG, AB, etc infinitely re-playable because each time you play, you face a dynamic and unpredictable opponent - as opposed to scripted and static PvE.

Let's pump some intelligence into that PvE AI - let's wake them up (and dump the crutch of RNG)


I like this idea.
03/02/2014 10:17 AMPosted by Vaelys
Not sure how i like the removal of currency but complaints about RNG are kinda ludicrous. Whats your other option then? Guaranteed handouts? Not going to happen if Blizzard us going to keep their current business model.

Here's a fact. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Might be time to grow up and deal with it.


The other option is the present option: a core of RNG supported by a currency/points system to smooth out gaps between RNG spikes.

People should get rewarded for the content they do. Waiting 4 to 8 weeks for a particular item when they put in the same effort as someone who gets the item the first time is not, by definition, fair.
03/02/2014 10:05 AMPosted by Dawnstríke
03/02/2014 09:58 AMPosted by Indyana
Badges were one of the worst ideas Blizzard ever came up with. For many Guilds in TBC the introduction of Badge gear (which could be farmed in outdated and weaker content) effectively killed their progression. It became hard to convince players to learn fights and deal with wipes when equivalent gear could be had by face rolling Heroics and Kara.

I do agree though that the issue of bad luck streaks is real and I don't know if Charms can ever be the only the answer like Watcher claims. I can see what they're trying to do and I agree with the philosophy but it's a tough to balance a system so reliant on RNG.


Good job ignoring the positive benefits of things like the points system whereby people were able to catch up to current content more easily.

Shifting towards RNG as a preferred loot gain system essentially forces people into older content to get to current content, i.e. gating.


No it doesn't.

03/02/2014 10:22 AMPosted by Dawnstríke
03/02/2014 10:17 AMPosted by Vaelys
Not sure how i like the removal of currency but complaints about RNG are kinda ludicrous. Whats your other option then? Guaranteed handouts? Not going to happen if Blizzard us going to keep their current business model.

Here's a fact. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Might be time to grow up and deal with it.


The other option is the present option: a core of RNG supported by a currency/points system to smooth out gaps between RNG spikes.

People should get rewarded for the content they do. Waiting 4 to 8 weeks for a particular item when they put in the same effort as someone who gets the item the first time is not, by definition, fair.


And valor doesn't give you that item you want. At best it gives you a poorly itemized item in the same slot so long as it isn't a weapon, tier, or a trinket. They are trying to improve on the token system to actually give you the item you are trying to get while raiding instead of running other content to get enough of a currency to get something that isn't quite as good otherwise you would have gone for it in the first place.
03/02/2014 10:17 AMPosted by Vaelys
Not sure how i like the removal of currency but complaints about RNG are kinda ludicrous. Whats your other option then? Guaranteed handouts? Not going to happen if Blizzard us going to keep their current business model.

Here's a fact. Life doesn't always give you what you want. Might be time to grow up and deal with it.


Earning something isn't a "handout" so you've missed the boat on this one.

If I spend 1 month in Flex to "earn" an item that randomly drops and 1 month gather mats or farming points for an item which one is "worth" more? Which was "earned"? Both are worth the same amount and both were earned. One was earned from doing the same boss over and over, one was earned by making it and spending the time to do so, and one was earned by either earning rep or gaining enough currency to purchase it. All three are viable options and it amazes me to no end the crowd that's "RNG or go home!" RNG doesn't mean better. The work put in, if it's equal in time or difficulty, is the main thing.

03/02/2014 10:25 AMPosted by Sayne


And valor doesn't give you that item you want. At best it gives you a poorly itemized item in the same slot so long as it isn't a weapon, tier, or a trinket. They are trying to improve on the token system to actually give you the item you are trying to get while raiding instead of running other content to get enough of a currency to get something that isn't quite as good otherwise you would have gone for it in the first place.


How does Valor gear not give you the item you want? It apparently does to myself and others otherwise the gear would go unbought. You don't find the gear attractive. You like RNG. You like the fact that things are changing. I'm not asking you to do anything but continue what you like to do. I'm asking for Blizzard to keep an aspect some of us like and use. It doesn't affect you at all in any way since you can ignore those parts and just keep RNGing. Please explain to me how a Valor option, or any other option such as crafting items, in any way is detrimental to your play style.
on the one hand, i wont feel the need to cap again.

on the other hand, a bunch of people will feel the same way and thus less people will run dungeons and raids (or at least, they will run them less).
03/02/2014 10:26 AMPosted by Ashendal
How does Valor gear not give you the item you want? It apparently does to myself and others otherwise the gear would go unbought. You don't find the gear attractive. You like RNG. You like the fact that things are changing. I'm not asking you to do anything but continue what you like to do. I'm asking for Blizzard to keep an aspect some of us like and use. It doesn't affect you at all in any way since you can ignore those parts and just keep RNGing. Please explain to me how a Valor option, or any other option such as crafting items, in any way is detrimental to your play style.


You are in a raid to get item x that drops off a boss. It doesn't drop, so you buy a different item from the valor vender that might not even be the same item slot because it isn't available from a valor vender that tier. You aren't getting what you want because you are buying a different item. Try to keep up. If you wanted that different item that is what you would have gone after in the first place. They are improving coin rolls to make sure you actually get that first item you wanted in the first place that didn't drop.

For the rest of your drivel please don't put words in my mouth to create your argument because I didn't say any of that.

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