Open Libram CXIX: Lazy Lobsters

Paladin
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Greetings and welcome to the 119th installment of the Open Libram! The perfectly grilled alternative to Mangle/Sentry Totem and Tank Lounge!

In these threads, we talk about everything Paladin. Some cool. Some lame. Some information dangerous. Got that question that you're kind of afraid to make a new thread about, or just tired of getting trolled on Trade Chat? Ask it here for a more personal response.

So Blood Elves, get your hair ready, Draenei and Tauren clean off your hooves. Dwarves, the nearest alcohol is to your left for your enjoyment and Humans... well do whatever it is you do that keeps you alive. Or stuff.


Previous Libram: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/13477147609
Libram Archive: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4254457548

Paladin Social Networking:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/283670185033463/

My Little Ponydins by Lobster:
http://i.imgur.com/u5X0REv.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/s8CSF.png

Eternally Cute Flames Yeah That's Right:
http://i.imgur.com/K5vJGTC.jpg

"Maid" by the Light: http://i.imgur.com/7zB4K.jpg
Cadenpony: http://i.imgur.com/bU0bh.png
Claw of the Law: http://i.imgur.com/zGCZVWs.jpg
Caden-bram: http://i.imgur.com/XFrocNX.jpg

"Bunny" Chaz by Lobster: http://i.imgur.com/IokKV.png

Vanilla Ret Pally "Melgibsmash":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6zGEBhJMHA

Necessary for all Holy Paladins next expansion:
https://www.coursera.org/course/publicspeak

WC2 Church Soundbite:
http://youtu.be/psGXIP6HoQw

___________________________

Named because this should have been Lobster's Libram but he nagged me into making it and I couldn't think of a title. So yeah.
I was thinking of capping, lol, but I didn't wanna snipe the 500 just for it since I did it last time.
Continuing on from last Libram.

wtf is the official general lifespan for blood elves now since the old RPG list is no longer canon.

Anasterian Sunstrider lived nearly three thousand years and was considered ancient so I imagine average Blood/High Elf life spans are in the mid two thousands.

* I DONT WANNA MAKE THE NEW THREAD YOU DO IT

You are so lazy but like I said probably for the best, you would have just removed your art again.

There used to be an issue where you could bypass some of the choke points in the Horde base, where you couldn't (or at least, not as easily) in the Alliance base.

I like my idea of people just being stupid better, but like I said limited experience.
In AV I feel horde have it rough. A single Ally can go to Relief Hut and cap it themselves without much resistance. It's rare that even one person is back there to stop them. Their towers are easier to cap than bunkers because he flag is isolated from the archers. As for the bunkers the archers are right there looking at you where you have to kill one of them to able to cap the flag.

As for the Alliance side, you have to have some good HP to get past the gauntlet, and bridge. When I used to solo rush the aid station, I'd have to heal before or during the 4 NPCs on the flag. This is also if there were no druids waiting to typhoon off the bridge.

The biggest folly has to be horde never backcapping. Alliance in my experience always backcap.

Edit:

Dunno why but I feel the title should have been engrish for some reason, to be Razy Robster.
So you don't get anything in MK8 if you get 3 stars in every GP.

http://i.imgur.com/LyqOXAF.jpg
07/27/2014 04:26 PMPosted by Destron
Dunno why but I feel the title should have been engrish for some reason, to be Razy Robster.


Lazy Lobsters does sound better actually.

Not sure on the Scooby Doo talk though.

07/27/2014 04:26 PMPosted by Destron
It's rare that even one person is back there to stop them.


07/27/2014 04:26 PMPosted by Destron
The biggest folly has to be horde never backcapping.


So stupidity?

Again all the Horde groups I've been in that defended Galv and their towers have always won, the ones that try to zerg straight through the Alliance base are the fails.
With my admitted very limited PVP experience Horde side I've come to the conclusion that Horde only ever loose at AV because they're idiots and zerg.

I have never seen a Horde AV fail, not once, that defended Galv and kept the towers defended and continually recaptured.

So yeah, loss due to stupidity is my judgement for the moment on all the Horde complaining about how AV is so unfair.

Here is the problem with this: If Horde does NOT defend, they are pretty much guaranteed to lose while the Alliance has the option of zerging or defending and winning either way.

I'm a fan of AV (Have won over 100 games), but the Alliance has a fundamental advantage on the favored play style and that's not fair in the slightest.
Most of the time Horde are going to lose AV anyway since most competent PvPers have it blacklisted.
The question then would be: Why would competent Horde PvPers blacklist it but not Alliance?

People say that's because they want PvP not a PvE race, but that's bull. It takes less than 25% of the Horde team to force a turtle which turns it into a PvP game. I'd say the problem is that the Alliance side has structural advantages which make that a less than appealing idea.
With my admitted very limited PVP experience Horde side I've come to the conclusion that Horde only ever loose at AV because they're idiots and zerg.


That's generally accurate. A lot of stupidity comes from the actual players in AV are dumb enough to follow bots. And AV bots aren't actually scripted to be capable of winning. They just zerg to specific points.

Mechanically AV has not changed in years.. and in those years it went from so "Horde biased" that Alliance on Rampage flat out boycotted it in BC and part of LK, to "Alliance biased" that Horde would leave when they got it and started blacklisting it when that became an option... and the BG had no changes at all for years, and the changes recently really.. didn't do anything. They make it easier for an initial Horde turtle, but harder for Horde to sneak in to recap.

AV npcs have been undertuned for the entire expansion, so we went from end of Cata when you could 4-tower zerg, something Alliance (and bots) do decently, through the first parts of MoP where you could 3-4 tower, until recently having npcs buffed and you have to wait for two towers now.

Horde players doing badly in AV is purely sociological. Three minutes into a game, there's a half dozen Alliance players in IBT waiting for it to cap. They will stay there until it caps. There's usually no Horde in SHB. Ten people ran up, killed archers (lol), capped the flag, and then ran off.

There really isn't any significant mechanical difference that the players have to deal with that are really a Horde advantage, but most players don't understand how things work and it causes them to see bias. Towers and graveyards are a really prime example.

Most Horde players think you have to kill archers before you can cap the flag where Alliance don't. Horde really don't need to, with the exception of DB South. RH and AS are both equally easy to cap. RH you are out of range of archers before you get to it, where you have to run slightly past AS to drop the archers. You do not agro the group by the forge near AS by running to the AS flag. That is a huge one. Tons of Horde swear that you can't, but I do it in every AV I go in. They're mobs. They have an agro range. Don't run directly through them.

07/27/2014 05:13 PMPosted by Boggyb
The question then would be: Why would competent Horde PvPers blacklist it but not Alliance?

People say that's because they want PvP not a PvE race, but that's bull. It takes less than 25% of the Horde team to force a turtle which turns it into a PvP game. I'd say the problem is that the Alliance side has structural advantages which make that a less than appealing idea.


They say they want pvp and are being basically ignorant about it, because both sides are. The current playstyle of AV is the way it is because of the honor per hour farm trend. People don't want to play, they want to grind currency.. that's also why it's so heavily botted.

With the recent changes to the fences in FWK it is very easy to do an initial turtle right at the gate between FWKE and FWKW because you can't jump up the snow banks and sneak around the towers anymore. It is still kind of crappy pvp though. It's a monster aoe that is typically pretty much awful for melee.

That said.. oqueue lists AV this weekend as being over 50% Horde victories for the first time in a long time, where it's usually about 80% Alliance.
@Aryeana: Loose teh hat then you're good.
Yeah, I know .. I normally have helms hidden, but wanted a full coordinated set for a while, only .. not so such considering the lips.
So in HFP the Orcs are all like "The Fel Orcs are horrible abominations that walk a road we ourselves walked in the past, we must never return to that dark time again." and stuff but then in Nagrand they're like:

"Draenei the ancient enemy are back! (lol wat?) You know that race we slaughtered indiscriminately and stuff for no good reason?"

"Kill them!!"

I sorry Libram, so much whining from me about Horde questing, but Light.

07/27/2014 06:32 PMPosted by Cayse
Mechanically AV has not changed in years.. and in those years it went from so "Horde biased" that Alliance on Rampage flat out boycotted it in BC and part of LK, to "Alliance biased" that Horde would leave when they got it and started blacklisting it when that became an option... and the BG had no changes at all for years


So all in the players head really? Seems about right.

07/27/2014 08:37 PMPosted by Muletia
I normally have helms hidden


Considering how often I've been yelled at for hats by you......

Take off the hat!
07/27/2014 09:29 PMPosted by Aryeana
Considering how often I've been yelled at for hats by you......

Take off the hat!

Dammit Caden, didn't realize that was you. I should have known as you're opposite me on WrA.

And no! No helms are a Draenei thing for me.

Besides, you're not my mother. I don't have to listen to you! :p
In other depressing news three raiders showed up for raid tonight, yeah I think we're done till WoD.

/sigh

07/27/2014 09:32 PMPosted by Muletia
Dammit Caden, didn't realize that was you.


You've talked to me in game while I've been on that character silly. :P

07/27/2014 09:32 PMPosted by Muletia
I don't have to listen to you! :p


HAT! OFF!! NOW!!!

/glare

XD
07/27/2014 09:41 PMPosted by Cadenbrie
HAT! OFF!! NOW!!!

/glare

XD

YES MOM!
*goes home*
07/27/2014 09:29 PMPosted by Aryeana
07/27/2014 06:32 PMPosted by Cayse
Mechanically AV has not changed in years.. and in those years it went from so "Horde biased" that Alliance on Rampage flat out boycotted it in BC and part of LK, to "Alliance biased" that Horde would leave when they got it and started blacklisting it when that became an option... and the BG had no changes at all for years


So all in the players head really? Seems about right.


Basically. If you look at http://wowpedia.org/Alterac_Valley#Patch_changes

That's everything that's changed in AV over the years.. and the 5.4.7 changes are basically the only thing significant that's been done since 2008. Most of it was health buffs (and health balancing, prior to that the Horde bosses had higher health) to make it so you couldn't 4-tower zerg, and.. basically countering team trolling so people couldn't drag bosses out of their rooms to force enrage.

Oddly the last meaningful changes prior to that in BC were to accomplish the same thing. More towers up makes the mobs in the boss rooms stronger, which is still active. And moving the Horde cave back to make the distance from cave to enemy keep almost identical. It also stopped Horde from being able to reach IBT choke before Alliance could get south, which at the time made it very hard for Alliance to win. They basically had to turtle DB bridge right from the start.

Horde problems in it are basically the result of "just lose fast and get the bonus honor" that started years ago. Alliance have exact same problem in the smaller BGs. If they don't lead right away, a lot of the time they just give up and you get spam afk reported if you do something to drag the game out.
*sigh*, what's the bet the armory will take an age and a day to update now that I've hidden the helm.
Woah, this one has updated too!
*giggle*
07/27/2014 05:13 PMPosted by Boggyb
People say that's because they want PvP not a PvE race, but that's bull. It takes less than 25% of the Horde team to force a turtle which turns it into a PvP game. I'd say the problem is that the Alliance side has structural advantages which make that a less than appealing idea.

Exactly. Horde know that and blacklist it, increasing Alliance advantage even further.
I would be very surprised if Horde didn't have the lowest winning percentage of any of the BGs on AV before the ability to blacklist it and that wouldn't be simply from happenstance. The differences are minor (I prefer their GY locations and their towers. The bridge is meh) but enough to make the Alliance zerg faster than the Horde zerg assuming equally skilled teams.

07/27/2014 09:29 PMPosted by Aryeana
"Draenei the ancient enemy are back! (lol wat?) You know that race we slaughtered indiscriminately and stuff for no good reason?"

It isn't a good reason to kill them, but I'd be mildly peeved if space goats landed on Earth and decided to rename the planet.

07/27/2014 09:29 PMPosted by Aryeana
I sorry Libram, so much whining from me about Horde questing, but Light.

Let's see what you say when you get to the Dominance Offensive.

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