LF Paladin with Beta

Paladin
Was hoping to find someone in beta that played Retribution and Holy or either.

I was hoping to ask a few questions.

1.) In the latest Build Empowered Seals now heals for 1% instead of the once 3%, Is this a large change? Is the healing from Seal of Insight still powerful?
If no one else answers your question by tonight I'll get on and test them myself for you. I've been meaning to get back on and test a few things anyway, just haven't had the time for that type of thing yet.
SoI was gutted since the start of beta testing, and heals for ~ 500 on 300k health pool.
08/07/2014 08:12 AMPosted by Divium
Was hoping to find someone in beta that played Retribution and Holy or either.

I was hoping to ask a few questions.

1.) In the latest Build Empowered Seals now heals for 1% instead of the once 3%, Is this a large change? Is the healing from Seal of Insight still powerful?


Ive been playing around with it, and it feels very weak now. 1% for ret is way too low. Protection needed the nerf though, as Ive been testing both extensively in PVP, and prot did need a survivability nerf. But ret did not. Its tough to say. Ive already let the devs know my thoughts on twitter about it so far.
Thank you for all the replies, I'll stay tuned if you find anything else.
08/07/2014 10:57 AMPosted by Divium
Thank you for all the replies, I'll stay tuned if you find anything else.

Our AoE feels good now w/ the newest perk change and FV changes. Looks like ret will have nice aoe in pvp as well, something they needed in order to keep up w/ dks and wars in rbgs.
08/07/2014 11:11 AMPosted by Zaultwo
08/07/2014 10:57 AMPosted by Divium
Thank you for all the replies, I'll stay tuned if you find anything else.

Our AoE feels good now w/ the newest perk change and FV changes. Looks like ret will have nice aoe in pvp as well, something they needed in order to keep up w/ dks and wars in rbgs.


Indeed I like how FInal Verdict is looking now it's all polished and pretty. Still not happy with the Animation but I'll get over it.

I still am favoring Empowered Seals but I have to ask the Attack speed that comes with it, is that a decent damage increase while its up?
08/07/2014 11:16 AMPosted by Divium
the Attack speed that comes with it, is that a decent damage increase while its up?

no
08/07/2014 11:20 AMPosted by Liminara
08/07/2014 11:16 AMPosted by Divium
the Attack speed that comes with it, is that a decent damage increase while its up?

no

I didn't think it would be either. At first I thought it was a haste boost.
08/07/2014 11:16 AMPosted by Divium
08/07/2014 11:11 AMPosted by Zaultwo
...
Our AoE feels good now w/ the newest perk change and FV changes. Looks like ret will have nice aoe in pvp as well, something they needed in order to keep up w/ dks and wars in rbgs.


Indeed I like how FInal Verdict is looking now it's all polished and pretty. Still not happy with the Animation but I'll get over it.

I still am favoring Empowered Seals but I have to ask the Attack speed that comes with it, is that a decent damage increase while its up?


Its literally a dps increase to not even seal swap for it. Its that bad. It needs a serious buff. I also think SoJ could use something more interesting than 20% extra speed too.
I hope the Talent Empowered Seals is nice but don't want to have to keep every buff just for it to be decent.

If I could revise it would be

Judgment of Righteousness
Increases your Haste by 10% for 20 sec.

Judgment of Insight
Heals you for 2% of your maximum health every 2 sec for 20 sec.

Judgment of Justice
Limits the Judged Target to normal Run Speed for 8 sec.

I don't really see anything wrong with Seal of Truth but it does seem lackluster

My reasoning behind Judgement of Justice not effecting the Paladin is because I don't want Emp Seals talent to make the Paladin feel like they need to have them all on at the same time. It would be nice if one or two were situationally helpful.
08/07/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Divium
Judgment of Righteousness
Increases your Haste by 10% for 20 sec.


I doubt they'd switch it to haste simply because it will scale out of control late expac. Just like the problems Disc is having right now. Early expac stat scaling stuff may seem okay but when we're in the 800 ilvls [end of WoD] it would be ludicrous.
08/07/2014 01:44 PMPosted by Andrasté
08/07/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Divium
Judgment of Righteousness
Increases your Haste by 10% for 20 sec.


I doubt they'd switch it to haste simply because it will scale out of control late expac. Just like the problems Disc is having right now. Early expac stat scaling stuff may seem okay but when we're in the 800 ilvls [end of WoD] it would be ludicrous.


This is true.
And I also think if that suggestion were ever taken it would take away from the Seraphim talent which is already not very popular in my opinion.
That's the problem with Seraphim too haha. Blizzard should just never add things that affect stats by a % because then we get tuning problems. It's either undertuned for early expac and is totally amazing late expac, or it's overtuned early expac and becomes incredibly OP late expac or gets nerfed into oblivion.
It badly needed a nerf for ret. At 1 hour, 28 minutes into this video you see Pikaboo, best rogue in the US, trying for 12-13 minutes to kill a ret with Seal of Insight HOTs running. The ret ends the 13 minutes at full health and Pikaboo /yields.

http://www.twitch.tv/pikabooirl/b/550583171

Pretty safe to say a random ret shouldn't be able to survive like that against the best rogue in the US.

The SoI heals takes absolutely no skill to use since you judge on cooldown anyway. Badly needed the nerf it got- rets aren't balanced around having a powerful recuperate in addition to WoG and Flash of Light heals.

There are plenty of other options to take if you don't like that- you can use empowered seals with a different seal or take a different talent altogether.
08/07/2014 01:55 PMPosted by Dhirken
It badly needed a nerf for ret. At 1 hour, 28 minutes into this video you see Pikaboo, best rogue in the US, trying for 12-13 minutes to kill a ret with Seal of Insight HOTs running. The ret ends the 13 minutes at full health and Pikaboo /yields.

http://www.twitch.tv/pikabooirl/b/550583171

Pretty safe to say a random ret shouldn't be able to survive like that against the best rogue in the US.

The SoI heals takes absolutely no skill to use since you judge on cooldown anyway. Badly needed the nerf it got- rets aren't balanced around having a powerful recuperate in addition to WoG and Flash of Light heals.

There are plenty of other options to take if you don't like that- you can use empowered seals with a different seal or take a different talent altogether.


I don't like using the word nerf and I'll agree with you it needed to be re-tuned but I think it needs to be worth while considering it does cost a GCD.

I'm eager to see if they'll renegotiate the talent to atleast 2% up from the current 1% atleast for Retribution opposed to Protection and Retribution.
Compared to recuperate, 3% every 2 seconds is nearly the same healing (1.5%/sec vs 1.6%/sec), and lasts longer than a 3cp recuperate. As much healing for less resources and less gcds, while still having all our other healing options.. it's too much.

It really was too strong at 3%, because you can just play turtle with emp seals, sitting in soi and using EF and stay up against some of the most broken classes in beta (and lots of rets were doing that, which is dickish and if something on beta is promoting dickish behavior, it should be changed), which means we need to lose some of it... and in the vod he wasn't even doing that. If you're standing around dueling, using selfless healer is awful.

It also needed to be retuned for prot. Relative to the other self-healing prot has... well, it's better than all the other healing prot has, combined. That needed to be fixed so that their other self-sustainability can be properly balanced.

Of all the bizarre things that are, I am highly amused that the word dickish is not censored.
08/07/2014 01:37 PMPosted by Divium
I hope the Talent Empowered Seals is nice but don't want to have to keep every buff just for it to be decent.

If I could revise it would be

Judgment of Righteousness
Increases your Haste by 10% for 20 sec.

Judgment of Insight
Heals you for 2% of your maximum health every 2 sec for 20 sec.

Judgment of Justice
Limits the Judged Target to normal Run Speed for 8 sec.

I don't really see anything wrong with Seal of Truth but it does seem lackluster

My reasoning behind Judgement of Justice not effecting the Paladin is because I don't want Emp Seals talent to make the Paladin feel like they need to have them all on at the same time. It would be nice if one or two were situationally helpful.


If the haste percent was a flat 10%, and not a modifier for the amount of haste we already have, this is probably the best way to impliment it. 2% would be worth the heal, but not OP, the reduced run speed from SoJ would give ret utility in RBGs and really spice up that option in pvp, and the righteousness part would make it worth the globals.
Only issue is, SoJ in that model would not be useful in PVE. Thats why I assume they did the run speed increase, but honestly it would be an overall better talent if what you described was the talent, and soj was only a pvp thing.
08/07/2014 01:55 PMPosted by Dhirken
It badly needed a nerf for ret. At 1 hour, 28 minutes into this video you see Pikaboo, best rogue in the US, trying for 12-13 minutes to kill a ret with Seal of Insight HOTs running. The ret ends the 13 minutes at full health and Pikaboo /yields.

http://www.twitch.tv/pikabooirl/b/550583171

Pretty safe to say a random ret shouldn't be able to survive like that against the best rogue in the US.

The SoI heals takes absolutely no skill to use since you judge on cooldown anyway. Badly needed the nerf it got- rets aren't balanced around having a powerful recuperate in addition to WoG and Flash of Light heals.

There are plenty of other options to take if you don't like that- you can use empowered seals with a different seal or take a different talent altogether.


The rogue was just as well staying alive constantly against that ret though too. And from watching that duel, the ret knew very well what he was doing. Plus, its a duel. Not an arena. I was expecting an arena :P
In duels right now on live, there are dps specs that can survive for that long as well, namely WW. But WW is not overtuned in 3s, despite that.

As for it taking no skill, it didnt really. But it did take quite a bit of extra globals. having to switch to the seal when you have a judgement off of CD, to use judgement, then swap back to maintain maximum damage has a high maintenance cost. Thats 2 globals wasted in order to get that heal. 2 wogs heal for about 75k if both crit w/o multistriking as well, and FoL is not far off either. I think that a 2% nerf was appropriate, but 1% was too far.

08/07/2014 02:48 PMPosted by Cayse
Compared to recuperate, 3% every 2 seconds is nearly the same healing (1.5%/sec vs 1.6%/sec), and lasts longer than a 3cp recuperate. As much healing for less resources and less gcds, while still having all our other healing options.. it's too much.

It really was too strong at 3%, because you can just play turtle with emp seals, sitting in soi and using EF and stay up against some of the most broken classes in beta (and lots of rets were doing that, which is dickish and if something on beta is promoting dickish behavior, it should be changed), which means we need to lose some of it... and in the vod he wasn't even doing that. If you're standing around dueling, using selfless healer is awful.

It also needed to be retuned for prot. Relative to the other self-healing prot has... well, it's better than all the other healing prot has, combined. That needed to be fixed so that their other self-sustainability can be properly balanced.

Of all the bizarre things that are, I am highly amused that the word dickish is not censored.


Recup isnt the only means a rogue has to survive though. They have double vanish, the best mobility, cloak on a min CD, double evasion, and the ability to have up 30% damage reduction 100% of the time.
Ive also tested out rogues on the beta, and no it is not more resources or trouble to have recup up. All it requires is combo points, which are just as easy to obtain as hopo is for ret. It is a significant dps loss to lose out on an eviscerate to use recup, but so is ret having to waste 2 gcds that give no extra damage at all to get that heal up. On top of that, every single ability we have to survive other than our Divine protection comes at a significant cost of some sort, unlike rogues. They use cloak? no cost. Evasion? No cost. BoS? Barely any cost that can be ignored. Even their ability to keep up 30% dmg reduction does not feel like much of a cost for how powerful that is. Thats all on top of all the CC they have, all of which only one of them has a cost, Kidney Shot.

I do not think ret should be compared to rogues, as they are fundamentally 2 different specs altogether, but since you did, I decided to take that approach to prove a point that its far deeper than simply how you put it.

Regardless, it did need a nerf. I did mention that it could possibly need a nerf to the devs on the beta forums more than once , but not more than 2% multiple times. The reason is because if it was nerfed more than that, it would not be used at all unless its completely overtuned compared to the other 2 in damage. Its maintenance is way too high to have to put up with the same or less damage than the other 2 options. The utility it brought is what makes the talent desirable.
@ Zaul, Who do you tweet to be heard from? I think I might start doing that.

@ Andraste and yeah I wish the numbers were static instead of percentages to make balancing easier.

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