Ret - The problems and how to fix them.

Paladin
There's just so many problems with the spec right now..

I'll list some and how I believe they could/should be fixed.

1. Inquisition is terrible, it's not fun. Fix it, get rid of it, do something to make it so I don't have to deal with anything close to this. Most of all it's just flat out boring, I get a little excited when I press most my abilitys. I die inside a little bit every time I press inquisition though.

2. Holy wrath - This spell doesn't belong on my bars, it's always been a meh spell but had its situational uses. Change this into a single target spell of sorts that applys Inquisition. This way we wont feel so bad about using such a low damage ability in our rotation simply because there's nothing else to hit.

3. Having to see stupidly low numbers keep popping up on my screen. We do a small portion of weapon damage from SoV and a small portion of weapon damage from crusade. This is just redundent and makes my screen become littered with stupidly small numbers I have no interest in viewing, just combine it please so I only have to see half as much damage I don't care about.

4. Something is not right with the 40% chance to get a HP charge. It feels quite a bit lower, has anyone tested it recently? The random nature of HP and exorcism are just terrible, we've had to deal with random procs since forever. Leave us alone with this junk. I don't even know what to say to fix it because having the majority of your DPS rely on luck is just bad. Everything about this is just terrible, the more I think about it the more doomed I realize it is. Get rid of holy power, it sucks, it's not fun, anything that can use HP sucks below 3 HP to the point where it's not even worth pressing under any circumstance. Just put a CD on templars verdict and leave exorcism to be the stupid "HAI GUYZ SUPRIZE U CAN PRESS ME" button. You really dug us a hole with this one.

Here - We should START with 3 HP, (make this a ret talent) and our auto attacks should also have a 10-20% chance to give us a charge or judgment always gives us a charge. That could make it tolerable, I still don't like it though.

5. Consecration - half of my mana for a spell that does crap damage? Seriously? Ugh, who comes up with these ideas? Buff the hell out of this for us and reduce the mana cost, our AOE is HORRRRRIIIBBBBLLLLEEE... give it a modifier so it does damage based on how many targets it's damaging (With a cap) if that's not too hard to program in. It uses whatever the original modifier number was for the entire duration and bam - we use it for AoE because it will be good and don't touch it for single target because it'd be just that bad.

6. Mastery - More chance junk. Change it to increase the damage done on our abilitys and be done with it, you guys tried to make this more interesting and thought out then that but it failed. There's no where else to go with this.

7. Crusader Strike - The CD is a mess, having to reach the haste cap so you can have a semi normal rotation is just ridiculous. Go make it a 3 second CD base or at the very least reduce the CD so we only need to get a reasonable haste rating in order to get it to three seconds.

8. Divine storm - I don't even know where to tell you to go with this either. It's bad, it's not fun, it's crap. It's nothing like FOK. I know you guys said this was an experiment of sorts so I'm not going to be that hard on it but it's not working. I understand why it's sharing a CD with CS, if it's not, as Ret. paladins we -will- end up trying to fit it into our rotations. We believe if we're not using every damaging ability we have in our spell book we're playing wrong. You'll never break this mentality from the majority of us and I don't want it broken. Increase the dmg, make the talents that effect crit/haste and what not for CS effect DS as well (If they don't already, I can't even keep track of all this anymore.) etc. etc. and make DS do damage % based on how many mobs it hits - problems solved.

All this sounds like buffs but feel free to tweak numbers away until it all comes together. After all, we are currently playing a beta spec.
ITT wrath bads playin in a cata world.
Seriously? One look at your Paladin and it's obvious you made him post WOTLK, I've had mine since launch day of BC. You should really think things through before you open your mouth =/
12/10/2010 1:12 PMPosted by Vir
12/10/2010 1:08 PMPosted by Toast
ITT wrath bads playin in a cata world.


Could you be anymore worthless?

I've been playing ret since launch and I agree with a lot of what the OP wrote.


To be fair, we can't all have Toast's staggering record of accomplishments.
Ya know, you're right. I havnt played since wrath. But, all those tears you've cried (save for inquisition) were there in wrath. And it was fine then.

Go read some other threads. Or, hell, hit 85, and then start QQing all over my pali forums. Believe it or not, blizz just might have a clue about what they're doing.
How to fix PvE:

SoB reverts to the original 3s

Zealotry moves to the level 81 spell (it is much better for holy and prot than inq, and it is not good enough to be a 31 point talent).

Inq becomes the mastery

HoL becomes the 31 pointer until a proper 31 pointer can be brought in.

All those changes involve existing talents and spells, they could hot fix that in next tuesday with minimal testing and at least fix ret for PvE. Proper fixes could then be lined up in 4.1 if those were not enough. Although I suspect they are enough to get ret both fun and viable again with the complexity we begged for. Then they can fix PvP in 4.1.

Then if we are OP hot nerf exo back below TV where it belongs (through AoW so it has no affect on the other specs). If we are UP hot buff TV above exo where it belongs.
12/10/2010 1:32 PMPosted by Crigily
Mastery, Divine Purpose (as a holy power generator), and FoK styled DS were there in wrath (pre 4.0.1)?


Arent you a cheeky little paladin ;3

Listen, if ya'll are gonna just sit here and cry all over my fourms, then just be sure to leave a dry patch while this thread sinks to page 20? So I dont slip and hurt myself on your tears? Can you do that for ol' Toasty?

I stand by my previous statement, get to 85 and play for a little bit. Anything can happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYEXzx-TINc
My 2 biggests grips about ret in order would be as follows.

1. looking at the top left corner to check on mana and holy power , looking at top right corner for buff durations , looking at bottom left for cool downs , looking at center for procs and the fight going on..... this might be handled by 3rd party add ons but id rather have bliz address it.
It could be fixed by letting me move my holy power bar to right below my feet so i dont have to look top left every 2 seconds. Another fix might be to add a talent or mod one to let judgement refresh inquisition. That could be added to the talent that increases judgement range also making it attractive to shockadins and make them want to judge. Ideally I'd love both as a fix so i dont have to make myself dizy looking left to right constantly.

2. My dps is based off a random number generator. Some time a go 3 minutes with out a proc , other times i dont have enough grobal cool downs to use everything. Not sure how to solve this one though. I love my procs but i would like more consistancy through a fight.


Some one on the boards put it best... " It's like ret was designed by a kid with a.d.d. and a gambling problem " - unknown source.

Beyond this id say mana cost of things like con. I understand they want us to have seperate single target and multi target rotations but they made the multi target rotation imposible to maintain through mana costs. I think if they address the above and fix our horrible aoe damage and costs then we will be in a good place..... or atleast and ok one.
It's best not to give them food or they keep returning looking for more.

This guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about, he crys about wotlk paladins when he's one him self. He seems to have an extremely hard time reading. He even admits to not having played his paladin since WOTLK and yet is telling other people to go hit 85.

He's a joke and not even a good one at that. Just ignore him and he'll go away.
12/10/2010 1:39 PMPosted by Toast
12/10/2010 1:32 PMPosted by Crigily
Mastery, Divine Purpose (as a holy power generator), and FoK styled DS were there in wrath (pre 4.0.1)?


Arent you a cheeky little paladin ;3

Listen, if ya'll are gonna just sit here and cry all over my fourms, then just be sure to leave a dry patch while this thread sinks to page 20? So I dont slip and hurt myself on your tears? Can you do that for ol' Toasty?

I stand by my previous statement, get to 85 and play for a little bit. Anything can happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYEXzx-TINc


Go, go on, little Toast. Proceed to be the lowest dps in your raid and the worst in your bg. Keep accepting things as they are.
12/10/2010 1:04 PMPosted by Sedx
There's just so many problems with the spec right now..

I'll list some and how I believe they could/should be fixed.

1. Inquisition is terrible, it's not fun. Fix it, get rid of it, do something to make it so I don't have to deal with anything close to this. Most of all it's just flat out boring, I get a little excited when I press most my abilitys. I die inside a little bit every time I press inquisition though.

2. Holy wrath - This spell doesn't belong on my bars, it's always been a meh spell but had its situational uses. Change this into a single target spell of sorts that applys Inquisition. This way we wont feel so bad about using such a low damage ability in our rotation simply because there's nothing else to hit.

3. Having to see stupidly low numbers keep popping up on my screen. We do a small portion of weapon damage from SoV and a small portion of weapon damage from crusade. This is just redundent and makes my screen become littered with stupidly small numbers I have no interest in viewing, just combine it please so I only have to see half as much damage I don't care about.

4. Something is not right with the 40% chance to get a HP charge. It feels quite a bit lower, has anyone tested it recently? The random nature of HP and exorcism are just terrible, we've had to deal with random procs since forever. Leave us alone with this junk. I don't even know what to say to fix it because having the majority of your DPS rely on luck is just bad. Everything about this is just terrible, the more I think about it the more doomed I realize it is. Get rid of holy power, it sucks, it's not fun, anything that can use HP sucks below 3 HP to the point where it's not even worth pressing under any circumstance. Just put a CD on templars verdict and leave exorcism to be the stupid "HAI GUYZ SUPRIZE U CAN PRESS ME" button. You really dug us a hole with this one.

Here - We should START with 3 HP, (make this a ret talent) and our auto attacks should also have a 10-20% chance to give us a charge or judgment always gives us a charge. That could make it tolerable, I still don't like it though.

5. Consecration - half of my mana for a spell that does crap damage? Seriously? Ugh, who comes up with these ideas? Buff the hell out of this for us and reduce the mana cost, our AOE is HORRRRRIIIBBBBLLLLEEE... give it a modifier so it does damage based on how many targets it's damaging (With a cap) if that's not too hard to program in. It uses whatever the original modifier number was for the entire duration and bam - we use it for AoE because it will be good and don't touch it for single target because it'd be just that bad.

6. Mastery - More chance junk. Change it to increase the damage done on our abilitys and be done with it, you guys tried to make this more interesting and thought out then that but it failed. There's no where else to go with this.

7. Crusader Strike - The CD is a mess, having to reach the haste cap so you can have a semi normal rotation is just ridiculous. Go make it a 3 second CD base or at the very least reduce the CD so we only need to get a reasonable haste rating in order to get it to three seconds.

8. Divine storm - I don't even know where to tell you to go with this either. It's bad, it's not fun, it's crap. It's nothing like FOK. I know you guys said this was an experiment of sorts so I'm not going to be that hard on it but it's not working. I understand why it's sharing a CD with CS, if it's not, as Ret. paladins we -will- end up trying to fit it into our rotations. We believe if we're not using every damaging ability we have in our spell book we're playing wrong. You'll never break this mentality from the majority of us and I don't want it broken. Increase the dmg, make the talents that effect crit/haste and what not for CS effect DS as well (If they don't already, I can't even keep track of all this anymore.) etc. etc. and make DS do damage % based on how many mobs it hits - problems solved.

All this sounds like buffs but feel free to tweak numbers away until it all comes together. After all, we are currently playing a beta spec.


I agree 100% and feel your frustration. I felt we were OP in WOTLK, but that doesn't mean add stupid new game mechanics to nerf us. I would have been fine with just our DPS being nerfed. I feel the way pallies have been re-designed, they are no longer fun to play. I'm just glad I found this out on a Scroll of Resurrection and not a paid subscription. Here's to hoping that the previous ret pally comes back soon! Going to give Prot a shot to see if they screwed that up as well...
12/10/2010 1:39 PMPosted by Toast
12/10/2010 1:32 PMPosted by Crigily
Mastery, Divine Purpose (as a holy power generator), and FoK styled DS were there in wrath (pre 4.0.1)?


Arent you a cheeky little paladin ;3

Listen, if ya'll are gonna just sit here and cry all over my fourms, then just be sure to leave a dry patch while this thread sinks to page 20? So I dont slip and hurt myself on your tears? Can you do that for ol' Toasty?

I stand by my previous statement, get to 85 and play for a little bit. Anything can happen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYEXzx-TINc


I am 85 and I can tell you we do need to be broght up to par with the other classes.Maybe you should level and find out what everyone is so upset about.
Get a smaller screen. If your screen is big you have to drag your eyes constantly away from the action as Ret. Something the size of a nintendo DS should work.
It also seems that Zealotry is very similar to our mastery stat (hand of light). When Zealotry is used doesn't it seem that its effects (generating extra holy power) are so similar to what we are trying to accomplish with mastery?

The other fundamental problem I'm having, is deciding whether to use inquisition for smaller pulls. If holy power is cashed in for inquisition instead of TV, its a gamble whether I will generate enough HP for more TV(s) to make up for the loss of my first HP used on inquisition.

just my $.02

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