Healers taking the brunt of the Cataclysm

General Discussion
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12/13/2010 10:48 AMPosted by Blargg
The problem with going oom is you have to recognize WHY.


    It could be you spamming heals or trying to top everyone off.
    It could be that you haven't figured out the right equilibrium for your heals.
    It could be someone standing in fire and having to keep them alive (likely in fear of being called bad and kicked).
    It could be be mechanics that people are ignoring.
    It could be that no one is using defensive CDs or healing themselves when needed.
    It could be that people refuse to use CC and try to faceroll.
    It could be a bad tank.


This is an excellent list. I have yet to come across a group that's complaining that isn't missing one of these things.

Is it really so much to ask that people run down a checklist like this and be able to check each box in able to make it through the dungeon? I say no.

May the face-rolls of WotLK never return.

So I have to say, if DPS are taking damage from stupidity I'll only heal them if I'm good on mana. Saying that, I do believe shaman heals are a bit too expensive considering i miss my "Lesser Healing Wave" for the new very expensive "Healing Surge" (Which i don't think heals enough for being so expensive.) I'm not so much complaining as saying good job. I like the challenge just miss my old heals. GG Blizz.
12/13/2010 10:39 AMPosted by Zamja
12/13/2010 10:34 AMPosted by Nethaera
It's definitely challenging to heal in Cataclysm and that's by design. We want players to pick and choose what spells to use and when. Those in your group will also need to be conscious of whether or not they're putting out enough DPS, taking too much damage, and more. You'll probably be pulling out more "tricks" from your bag than you've been doing in awhile. You're also going to miss a time or two, run out of mana at a bad time and find yourself trying to figure out just what went wrong. Even experienced healers are going to have to dig their heels in a bit.

That said, we're keeping an eye out for how healing is going and should we feel there need to be adjustments, we'll make them. As many have noticed, we're starting to get a larger population of level 85 players who will be running through the content and getting better gear to compliment their spells and abilities. That should help some.

i know you guys are listening to a lot of the qq threads about heroics being too hard, but please please don't nerf them. if you're going to change anything just buff the healers a little bit but keep the heroics the same difficulty. that is all.


Indeed, Normal mode dungeons are quite easy. They stated their design intent from the beginning was to make heroic modes truly challenging. If they make things too easy again (and this isn't intended as a threat, just a statement of fact) like they did in wrath, I'll simply cancel my subscription again. I lost interest in trying to make my voice heard, actions speak louder and frankly there's other games out there if this one loses its appeal.

That said, the way things are, CURRENTLY, are awesome and I'm having a blast. My only concern is that "normal" mode raids are potentially too difficult for 60% of the wow community currently. I have no problem with normal mode raids being made to be accessible to 70%-ish of the population (ps I don't have as jaded a view of average skill level as most, I think that bottom 30% tends to stand out enough to be seen as a larger percentage than they are) as long as heroic modes are only doable by the top 20% and with a lot of work to boot.
12/13/2010 10:42 AMPosted by Vynalla
Tanks and healers pay in order for everyone else to enjoy the game.

That's the way things are set up. Yes many do enjoy tanking and healing.. (have a healer myself) but there's a reason why you get a group instantly as a tank or healer, but have a 50 min wait as a dps.

Blizzard has set things up that some peoples enjoyment comes at the cost of others. Either make tanking and healing more fun, or make it hold less responsibility on the entire groups success or failure.

Will there every be a time when DPS is in shortage on the LFD? How come so few play tanks?

Why is this?


Personally I do not find this true. I've played this character since the beginning of WoW. used to be a Human Holy Pally since WoW 1.0 on this toon and have since moved to being a prot pally.

I completely disagree with the fact that you feel the tank and the healer are mostly responsible for the success of groups. This is actually the complete opposite of what the new dungeons are designed to do. Most trash and boss mechanics require a certain level of awareness from not only the tank and healer, but the DPS as well.

In these new Dungeons:

1. DPS classes with CC MUST CC certain targets in heroics and focus down specific mobs to make healing and tanking easier on an already swamped tank who is likely still tanking 2 - 3 mobs that can at any point in time put a hurting on even them.

2. I find most boss fights have a lot of "stay out of the bad" mechanics to go with high health pools so DPS must of course "stay out of the bad" use bandages and heal themselves at points so they can live to DPS down the bosses while helping preserve their healer's mana.

Even one DPS'er dying mid fight can make a difference between the party's success or failure, so they are just as responsible for keeping themselves alive and killing the boss. The weight of the party isn't only pushed to the healer and the tank. So unfortunately if everyone doesn't work as a team and play their role properly, you will fail. Its all team based mechanics.
12/13/2010 12:03 PMPosted by Tallulawater
12/13/2010 11:54 AMPosted by Twîstedkìtty
The best part here is "Better gear to compliment their spells and abilities" What spells and abilities? I didn't get any upgraded spells at level 85? I got upgraded mana costs.

Pretty sure every single person who has been having an issue isn't wanting content NERF'd by the way. We want spells to scale w/ the silly mana cost that blizz through in our faces.


Gonna agree with kitty on this point. As a resto druid I got nothing new in my tool box (although I just dinged 85 and got the mushrooms - haven't tried those yet). My heals don't feel like they scaled either.


If everything scaled relative to each other and we ended up with a similar layout as Wrath where a single heal smashed someone from 10% to full in an instant still...the game would be Wrath again...healthpools had to sky rocket and damage and healing had to come down relative to them.

What other way could they do it? The numbers are getting silly enough already. Getting a double-crit fills my screen with so many digits I can barely see anything.

I don't understand these complaints at all. You wanted the game to be harder, but you didn't want to get nerfed?
12/13/2010 11:43 AMPosted by Bibdi
12/13/2010 11:37 AMPosted by Yggdrasil
[quote="14063104745"]It's definitely challenging to heal in Cataclysm and that's by design. We want players to pick and choose what spells to use and when. Those in your group will also need to be conscious of whether or not they're putting out enough DPS, taking too much damage, and more. You'll probably be pulling out more "tricks" from your bag than you've been doing in awhile. You're also going to miss a time or two, run out of mana at a bad time and find yourself trying to figure out just what went wrong. Even experienced healers are going to have to dig their heels in a bit.

That said, we're keeping an eye out for how healing is going and should we feel there need to be adjustments, we'll make them. As many have noticed, we're starting to get a larger population of level 85 players who will be running through the content and getting better gear to compliment their spells and abilities. That should help some.


I see your point, but I just want to understand your view of challenge and fun. I swear I am not being sarcastic, thats a genuine question, but, the times I was healing a 85 dungeon successfully I ended up using lifebloom for the 3 stacks and then spamming nourish on tank with ocasional wild growth on group followed by more nourish spam.

So, I see and I really understand Blizzard's goal with challenge and the duty to choose wisely our healing spells and when to cast the right one, but right now I really dont see it when all I do is basically spam nourish on tank and occasionally spam nourish on dps after a wild growth or something like it.


You honestly picked the wrong class if you want variety in healing. Druids suffer from far too much hybridization to the point that Resto has like 6 spells. When half of them aren't even useful most of the time, that doesn't leave a lot of variety.

You'll find more challenge and fun if you go beyond healing. There are a lot of places where you can use Roots, Hibernate, Soothe, Cyclone etc. to help out the group, provide yourself with more responsibility, and get more enjoyment out of Heroics.[/quote]

You are actually right, I was remembering now my druid and yes, we are not a class of variety in regards of how many healing spells we use. I think that what ends making me a little sad about the druid healing state right now is that my druid used to be hyperactive at instances lol. Always running, always moving, and now the poor thing is feeling for the first time ever and ironically like a tree, standing still in place the whole time. Ohh the Irony...
12/13/2010 10:34 AMPosted by Nethaera
It's definitely challenging to heal in Cataclysm and that's by design. We want players to pick and choose what spells to use and when. Those in your group will also need to be conscious of whether or not they're putting out enough DPS, taking too much damage, and more. You'll probably be pulling out more "tricks" from your bag than you've been doing in awhile. You're also going to miss a time or two, run out of mana at a bad time and find yourself trying to figure out just what went wrong. Even experienced healers are going to have to dig their heels in a bit.

That said, we're keeping an eye out for how healing is going and should we feel there need to be adjustments, we'll make them. As many have noticed, we're starting to get a larger population of level 85 players who will be running through the content and getting better gear to compliment their spells and abilities. That should help some.



Ahhhhh nice ^_^ so the changes to healing start early in the expansion, I'm guessing right now you guys are probably trying to decide either to buff healing or nerf damage in the instances.

Personally I have a rough time in PuGs I know where the problems lay - CC - fights taking too long - Mistiming a big heal or CD. I kind of knew the nerfs would be coming sooner rather then later. It's pretty self evident if you start seeing the new population of 85's suddenly giving up on clicking that little [Healing] button you're going to have to do something to bring the greater population back into healing.

If you want a suggestion - make heroics damage scale off average iLvl so the bigger the group has the harder things hit. Should ease them into it a bit better then just wipefests and abuse happening now.
OP is doin it wrong.
12/13/2010 12:11 PMPosted by Bibdi
12/13/2010 12:03 PMPosted by Tallulawater
[quote="14063105816"]The best part here is "Better gear to compliment their spells and abilities" What spells and abilities? I didn't get any upgraded spells at level 85? I got upgraded mana costs.

Pretty sure every single person who has been having an issue isn't wanting content NERF'd by the way. We want spells to scale w/ the silly mana cost that blizz through in our faces.


Gonna agree with kitty on this point. As a resto druid I got nothing new in my tool box (although I just dinged 85 and got the mushrooms - haven't tried those yet). My heals don't feel like they scaled either.


If everything scaled relative to each other and we ended up with a similar layout as Wrath where a single heal smashed someone from 10% to full in an instant still...the game would be Wrath again...healthpools had to sky rocket and damage and healing had to come down relative to them.

What other way could they do it? The numbers are getting silly enough already. Getting a double-crit fills my screen with so many digits I can barely see anything.

I don't understand these complaints at all. You wanted the game to be harder, but you didn't want to get nerfed?[/quote]

Point being when i have 6k SP from trinket procs etc at all timnes Flask/food as well.. Explain to my as a druid why my heals still heal for nearly the same?

You need a lot of SP to improve any heal obviously

im not asking to have a hot that heals for 120k im just asking to not only have 1 option to handle a emergency situation.

When you hit a tank with a 25k crit on healing touh and in the same time he takes just as much damage.. there you go.. same result of being up crap creek without a paddle until your oom.

Healers are paying for everyones screw ups right now and thats just dumb.
My only wish is that tanks would give us healers a little time between pulls to DRINK. I'm sorry, but I just can't heal you without mana. And don't look at my innervate; it gets used more than it should.

Pro tip: know what color dot your healer is (I'm orange) and make sure s/he's near you on your minimap before you pull.
I'm curious - Did the shaman actually have lower spirit or did he just run out of mana faster? I am stacking spirit as much as I can, but fully buffed at 330 item level, with flask, I'm at 2400mp5, not counting Replenishment regen or the 2% mana I get ~ every 6 seconds from a resto talent, which ultimately brings me to about 4200mp5. However, I whiz through mana REALLY fast if I'm not extremely careful because spells our spells at 85 cost 6 times as much as they did at 80.
I look forward to the heroics. Seriously. WotLK Dungeons were such a snooze fest (tanking, healing and dpsing) that a change is very welcome.

If you want easy, mindless playing, go play tic-tac-toe.

Also, don't PuG. PuGs in this environment are going to be awful and painful. Run with people you know and trust, who will CC and will supply positive feed back. It will be a lot more fun for you.

The best part here is "Better gear to compliment their spells and abilities" What spells and abilities? I didn't get any upgraded spells at level 85? I got upgraded mana costs.


At 85 your healing spells scaled forward in terms of (1) healing done and (2) mana cost. The cast times (3) are still there.

Now, as you get the gear that gives you the mana pool to handle the increase in (2) you see that your potential is increased at 85 since the ratio between (1) and (3) has remained the same. This is what he's saying.


Pretty sure every single person who has been having an issue isn't wanting content NERF'd by the way. We want spells to scale w/ the silly mana cost that blizz through in our faces.


The mana costs don't look silly at all if you look at the mana pool you can get from iLevel 359 gear. Blizzard never promised that you could conquer all the new content in 333 or less.

Seems as if blizz puts in this LFG thing and then wants to punish people for using it. Healers shouldn't have to make up for one screw up of a dps or tank. Nor should people in the group. Before people start preaching about kicking, you can only kick so many times in a certain amount of time so NEXT on that excuse.


LFG was just some icing on the cake. Do you remember putting together groups from friends? Talking to people to make sure they knew an encounter? Seriously, I'm loving the added communication these changes have made. You basically have to get to know a little bit about everyone in the group, you have to communicate.

This is an exponentially better experience than the mute faceroll that WotLK dungeons were. It was maybe a "Hi guys" - spam aoe threat & aoe DPS - "Thanks guys", then it was done.

Gear will help the mana issues, and players will unlearn the LK retardation. It will get less frustrating. The players need to un-nerf their brains, that is all.




12/13/2010 12:13 PMPosted by Kamaia
12/13/2010 11:59 AMPosted by Mxahan
[quote="14060507910"]I like that these encounters are hard to heal. Please don't make them easier or make mana not be an issue.

I think the biggest problem I've seen so far is that groups tend to expect the healer to carry them. I'd say about 2/3 of my queues are a dungeon in progress where the healer got the boot or got fed up and dropped. Remember, if the healer goes OOM with the boss at 10% and you wipe, a better geared/skilled healer might have carried the group, but 10% higher dps would have killed the boss too.


There's a difference between healers wanting something tweaked, and turning the game into another WotLK.


I didn't propose going back to WotLK. My point was just that oom healers could be a result of low dps or poorly organized dps. For example, even on a 3 mob trash pull with no cc splitting dps (all else being equal) will result in 50% more incoming damage over the course of the pull than focus firing one mob down first, then a second, then a third. That's 50% more drinking.[/quote]

Oh, i see.

My complaints about healing aren't about difficulty, they're about boredom.

All I ever do is cast heal. And holy word blah blah.

The only time i cast another healing spell (mana regens not included) is when someone is about to die, which only happens once in a while or if someone is an idiot.

And aoe heals needed to be nerfed, however they are now uselss.
@healers who are complaining. allow me to reiterate, YOUR DOING IT WRONG. I dinged 85, used some ilevl gear to game blizards broken ilvl system and healed my first heroic. Heroic Grim Batol (one of the harder ones if you haven't done it) THis was done at around 75k mana, and 1400 regen. WHich is very very low. I had to drink every pull, but I didn't let people die on trash, and the boss deaths were insta-gbis (i,e) flame adds. If you are going OOM, or not healing for enough either a) your not healing well, or b) your group is full of morons.

@dps. QUit blaming your healer because your mentally hadicapped. LOL I STOOOD IN THE FIRE AND DIED YOUR TERRiBLE HEALER. SOme fire ticks at 40-50k a second. My BIGGEST heal hits for around 20 k after a 2 second cast. If you pull aggro, you die before i can even get a FoL off. Honestly, if you do something stupid, you die. And I couldn't be happier about this change.

@Tanks. Use CDs on trash. Trash isn't a joke on some pulls. Enough said.
what would be helpful is instead of a new crying thread every 5 minutes, why don't you go to your class forums and stir up some discussion or read some threads on optimal playstyle?

Just like DPS sit on the dummies to optimize their dps, i'd suggest doing some similar testing to optimize your throughput while maintaining your resources.
If you're not in a guild or using the dungeon finder, expect to fail as a dps, tank or healer. I've heard nothing but bad things about healers and mana, specifically priests (I really disagree with the whole, priests are where we want healers to be) since having 3 of 4 healers healing better than a priest, makes it pointless to bring a priest except 1 disc.

I have more fun on my tank than I do on my healer, because I can to some extent say to cc this, explain this fight, I've whispered healers half the time after only ever playing the 4 healers I've raided with since TBC and told them some fights no one but the tank SHOULD take damage except for a specific time, so don't top them off, etc. Unless they learn, they'll fail...that's why you either need a good guild to dungeon/raid with, or put up with the chaos that is the dungeon finder :)
What I really find funny is it's a pally complaining. Pallys arent OP, but were incredibly well balanced in terms of efficiency, cooldowns, and heal size right now.

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