Dungeon queue should be performance-based

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You know, you're right.

Subscription fees should be performance-based too. If you're going to give other people less of a game, certainly it would be fair to charge them less, wouldn't it?
01/04/2011 9:13 PMPosted by Neyuna
Hah, so like the Microsoft Paperclip. Except it could be a murloc or something that pops up on your screen and says "It looks like you're trying to dps. Would you like help?"


lol, exactly what crossed my mind.

Honestly, Blizzard doesn't need much more than some on-screen guidance. When a group wipes, a built-in Blizzard auditor parses the combat log and explains what went wrong. The key is making it public information to the party. Currently people point fingers and agreements are hard to come by. An automated Blizzard auditor would say exactly what went wrong to the entire party, without unnecessary criticism, and maybe even provide tips/solutions for next run. Hell, if a player had the wrong talents or gear equipped the auditor could point that out.

More importantly, WoW needs a built-in WoWpedia (not to be confused with wowpedia.org, but similar). The strategy game Civilization 5 has Civilopedia--an in-game browser of tactics, terminology, units, etc. WoW needs an in-game WoW encyclopedia. It could include comprehensive guides to each class and their abilities. Beginner rotations and tips. It could include instance and boss abilities and tips. Come to think of it, one of the features touted for Cataclysm was showing boss abilities on the instance map.

Despite the vast amount of WoW information available outside the game and on the Internet, I'd say the majority of WoW players don't bother to do research until they're at a boiling point in frustration. A trainer/auditor and built-in WoWpedia would ease things.
Um hang on can someone please tell me what a Guild is for?

Aren't you in a guild so you don't have to PUG.

I don't really want to segregate anyone.

I like this idea in a way, but I would want it to be very carefully implemented. What is the point of something like this anyway if the queue times go right through the roof because 3/4 of the population can't use RFD anymore. Most of you screaming for this to be implemented would in a month’s time be cry on these forums about how you have to wait 2 hours for an RFD to pop.

I mean I've probably completely missed the point here but seriously if you are that steamed off about RFD I will refer to my earlier point. That is what Guilds were made for isn't it? So you can find like-minded people to do stuff with. Be that Battle Grounds, Dungeons Normal/Heroic and Raids.
Simple solution, MARK the targets. I've done a few "reg, for now" where the tank wanted CC and some where they didn't. If you want CC mark it up, and tell the person to CC it. If they don't or fail at it, vote kick, get another DPS there a dime a dozen. And I know people are going to say "that's my repair bill, ot gold" but you know what, people complained and moaned that Wrath was too easy and to go back to BC and Vanilla, well this is what you get!
Blizzard is going to need to add a disclaimer to the package soon. Something to the effect that "if you dont perform well in this game you will be banned from playing so dont waste your money buying it if you dont think you can handle it". I guess maybe Blizzard has reached a high enough player base for them and they really dont care if they run off or scare off people from playing. In the past I used to try to get all my friends to play wow. I talked about how fun it was, how they would really enjoy it as long as they dont get too drawn into the game. Now I spend all my time discouraging people from picking up the game. Im truly embarrassed at what WOW has become and I would not push the game on my friends in its current state.

In many ways, the direction the game is taking reminds me of that South Park episode where Cartman bought the amusment park. He kicked all the of the people out so he could ride the rides without long queues.
01/04/2011 9:35 PMPosted by Ashavan
I like this idea in a way, but I would want it to be very carefully implemented. What is the point of something like this anyway if the queue times go right through the roof because 3/4 of the population can't use RFD anymore.


I'm much more concerned about what happens to newer players. WoW really doesn't need more Caste System than it already has.

Not every veteran has an ego the size of the moon, and hates every player with less than five years of WoW experience. Just most of them :P I'd much more happily be RDF-matched by Attitude than some odd performance metric.
[quote]
So while I'm speaking more about class roles, I think the idea still lends itself to your question. It'd be helpful to get more information than just through trial and error. Groups could benefit if they knew they didn't wipe because the healer didn't manage mana well enough, but because the DPS wasn't high enough, or boss adds weren't properly rounded up, etc.


It will be interesting to see how you do that considering all the variables involved in fight.

Who pulled what and when? Did Tank pull before DPS was ready? Did Tank set markers? Did everyone know the fight before hand?

There is more to a fight than "DPS didn't pull high enough numbers.". Times are when DPS don't pull numbers because they are doing CC and kiting adds.
I would like to see, or rather hear, an almost guitar-hero-like combat feedback system. The game, according to my character info, knows what my spec is. The developers, according to their posts, appear to know what my shot priority should be.

So why not play some ugly clanky failure sounds when I press the wrong button? Why not make the correct ability a bigger-cooler sound when it was the right time to press it?

Why not flash some streetfighter style combo (and broken combo) information instead of just numbers at the player?

Shield slam and revenge were lit up, free of rage cost, and you requested heroic strike instead. BZZT. I don't even know if S&B still exists or if that's even as high a priority, but it seems like these things ARE "knowable" to the game client.
01/04/2011 9:38 PMPosted by Delariae
Sounds like they would have to know how much damage in X amount of time is needed per phase for each boss. Also how much healing calculated off of the total health pool on average being needed.

It would have to take into account the mechanics of the fight and what the designers intend for each individual boss, and then give you feedback telling you who didn't do what based on each players class and what abilities they have.

I mean it might just be me, but this sounds pretty complex.

EDIT: I just don't think Blizz has the tech for it. I am going to be pessimistic here.


I think Blizzard does have the tech for it in-house and their own benchmarking, but certainly in no form for players to access.

During PTR and beta encounters of past, Blizzard monitors combat logs and encounter statistics server-side. They probably have more statistics than we can think of. In WotLK PTRs they put up Patchwerk DPS dummies in Ulduar and later on Ghostcrawler (IIRC) would post results from averaging hundreds of trials.
01/04/2011 9:38 PMPosted by Delariae
EDIT: I just don't think Blizz has the tech for it. I am going to be pessimistic here.


They still haven't figured out how to fairly award honor points for BG performance, even given five years to think about it.

What makes anyone in their right mind believe Blizzard CAN do this, let alone SHOULD do this?

The whole idea is an abortion. That Z takes it at all seriously...frightens me deeply.
You know what makes games fun? When you have to do homework (reading up on strats) and there are quizzes and tests. "Son, we need to talk with you- your dungeon rating is only a C-".
This idea will:
- Take time away from players who already understand how to play.
- Cause an incredible amount of crying on the forums (as does everything).

This idea will not:
- Stop people from gearing/gemming/enchanting incorrectly.
- Stop people from ninja looting.
- Take into account any of the following:
+Tanks that break CC.
+ DPS that Rambo ahead of the tank and healer.
+ Healers that only spam one heal and don't utilize skills.

My reccomendations:
- Rethinking this idea entirely.
- Not expecting this to happen.
- Acceppting that bads will be bads.
01/04/2011 8:28 PMPosted by Zarhym
Sort of. One flaw with the current system, is if players fail in a pick-up group, they aren't told why they failed. People then tend to play the blame game, often directing malice at the healer(s).

So while I'm speaking more about class roles, I think the idea still lends itself to your question. It'd be helpful to get more information than just through trial and error. Groups could benefit if they knew they didn't wipe because the healer didn't manage mana well enough, but because the DPS wasn't high enough, or boss adds weren't properly rounded up, etc.


How would you do this without giving the fight away, though? I mean, Ripsnarl is an interesting case. If all 3 DPS switch to adds immediately as they spawn, you can keep up with them. If you think you can leave 1-2 on the boss (you can't), you'll end up falling behind. Part of the fight and the fun of encounters is figuring out how to beat them. How would you tell a group this sort of thing without completely giving away the method to defeat the encounter?
What else do people want us to do? I already have to strip naked, sign an application, show that sat on Santa's lap, ERP with the guild leader, ERP with the guild leaders friends, and cater to ever demand given to me AND then they will decide if I can go do something or not.

Screw this. I don't give a damn about your heroics and never will. I will look forward to killing you in any BG with your shiny new gear.
As much as I have to agree that a skill based selection criterion for heroics would be a good idea, I think OP's recommendation is ill suited. The practicality of the approach is just not feasible, due to the complexity of the game at this level.
Also I think that a “test” is not a suitable means of assessing skill. From personal experience I know that tests are a poor way of evaluating someone’s level of skill, but rather they are an assessment of someone’s ability to perform a given exercise, which is easy given enough practice. Skill to me is the ability to quickly and accurately respond to a new/unfamiliar situation.

As an alternative to OP’s suggestion, I could imagine some form of assessment system while doing the equivalent normal mode dungeon. This system should be based on performance criteria in relation to the gear level, so that it’s a level paying field. All these criteria would be weighed according to the class, role and spec of the individual. The criteria could include:
  • Threat generated

  • Damage taken, both magnitude and as a percentage of the overall damage taken by the party

  • Damage done

  • CC and CC breakers

  • Healing done

  • Overhealing done

  • etc


  • All of these are easily measured, so the biggest challenge would be to set suitable performance requirements in order to open up the respective heroic mode.

    Taking the idea a bit further, once a player has access to the heroic mode, their performance should be constantly monitored and if there is a significant drop in performance, then the access to the specific heroic should be denied again until such a time that he or she can demonstrate their skill again.

    I’m aware that what I’ve written above is greatly simplified, but I think it may be a more suitable approach than a simple “test” quest.

    On a side note, I really like the idea some people have mentioned about training rooms. But isn’t that what the normal dungeons are for?
    01/04/2011 9:45 PMPosted by Ginjavitus
    This idea will:
    - Take time away from players who already understand how to play.
    - Cause an incredible amount of crying on the forums (as does everything).

    This idea will not:
    - Stop people from gearing/gemming/enchanting incorrectly.
    - Stop people from ninja looting.
    - Take into account any of the following:
    +Tanks that break CC.
    + DPS that Rambo ahead of the tank and healer.
    + Healers that only spam one heal and don't utilize skills.


    Maybe you should reread the original post.

    You do it once, and unlock the ability to queue. How long did it take you to visit every instance entrance? Probably more time than it would take you to complete an entrance exam.

    It might not stop people from gearing incorrectly, but either A) you can't complete the test when geared incorrectly, or B) you can, which means you can complete the instance geared incorrectly. Either way, it should work.

    It might even fix one-spell wonder healers. If they can't keep the dummy/NPCs alive, how will they keep a group alive?

    It won't stop ninja looting. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like it's intended to. Bringing this up is like saying taxing beer won't stop kids from smoking, so why do it?
    While this idea would work in a perfect "game" it's horribly flawed.

    There are normal modes and an in-game DBM basically for dungeons and that alone should allow a player to learn. There are also a PLETHORA of guides all over the interbutts.

    It's a really cool idea but yeah, :(
    01/04/2011 8:16 PMPosted by Razael


    it's simple, just make them pass a sobriety test first right?


    Hell no, Drunk healing is the best.

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