To Blue posters... Hubris is not a good thing

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I agree that something is wrong with the dynamics of heroics in Cata. Yes, it is relatively easy to get through them once you find a good group. The problem is finding that good group, and working together to get it done.

I do not believe that I have used the LFD group once where there was not a vote to kick someone passing by my screen within the first 10 minutes. Its too easy to kick folks who have waited for upwards of 45 minutes to get into a dungeon. It is also too easy for the group to look over the recount listings and vote to kick the hunter, who was busy keeping crap off me (healing), because his dps was lacking. If it is intended that we work together, then something needs to be done about the ease of replacing folks.

Come on already.... the beauty of this MMO was that folks can play together, regardless of goals. This has been broken and replaced by a whole crap ton of "out for ourselves" mentality. "Nasty" is the new attitude.

Please note that I am perfectly happy with my guild, and the quality of folks who are members and have completed the heroics. I always enjoyed meeting new folks through the LFD tool and at this point have almost no interest in even trying.
most bc heroics were harder.

now that im geared i just aoe tank everything anyways :> I didn't during wrath but I'm assuming the game feels somewhat similar to what it did then.

For the highly skilled, truly awesome players with digital reflexes i'm sure heroics are easy, they could probably do them in greens.


I am not a machine of a player. Sometimes I stand in bad, like when I'm sleepy or whatever. It's okay. I'm still very comfortable with heroics. You don't have to be elite hardcore to win, regardless of what you may read on the forums.

You seem intelligent. You clearly raided in Kara, and that required at least some level of alertness. I believe in you, OP. And really... heroics are not that hard. Be patient. Try different strategies. When you succeed, you'll find the satisfaction quite rewarding.

Blizz is going to be buffing lots of healing abilities in the next patch. But mostly, healers should strive to see their roles in new ways. Throw out everything you used to know about heals, because it doesn't work that way anymore. For example, it is no longer necessary to keep an entire raid at 100% health at all times. DPS can often be held safely at 50%, unless a healing intensive boss mechanic is about to happen. Do you see my point?

I am sorry for your friend who was forced into tears after suffering abuse. This is the biggest issue I face in Cataclysm, and it has nothing to do with Blizzard -- it's the players. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is now to be patient with the people you're working with. We are all new here, so be supportive and polite.
They dont want you anymore...

Sorry....

if you dont enjoy ripping your toenails out to get more hardcore, the game isnt for you anymore.


Sad but true apparently. Why a company would slap the great majority of its users in the face like this is a mystery.

Blizz should just go ahead and remove LFD because its a bad joke in the Cata era. It was the greatest thing in WotLK but Blizz no longer wants to have anything to do with that style of play.
I agree with a lot the OP has to stay.

As a healer, I stuck it out and sucked it up, and found that things got a lot easier once my gear got better. But by god, parts of it were awful and there's still bosses I struggle incredibly with.
I'm a decent player, if I had the time I could join a raid guild and do quite well, but I agree that these heroics are a death trap to anyone who doesn't do their research.

Yes, research. Cause doing homework to play a game is fun?
12/28/2010 5:52 AMPosted by Rohaj
Yes, research. Cause doing homework to play a game is fun?

Research? Really? Gear: wear whatever that is ilvl 333/346. That sure was hard. Encounters: "Hey, I've never done this before. Could someone tell me to do/look out for?" That sure was hard too. It also doesn't take a genius to learn encounters as they happen. I had no idea what was new about the 2nd boss in stonecore and I moved behind the pillar as I was getting hit. That was a stroke of brilliance wasn't it?
12/28/2010 5:50 AMPosted by Cindyanne
I also find myself agreeing with you.

I wish the progression was more like Normal dungeons --> Normal raids --> Heroic dungeons --> Heroic raids.

This way, all levels of players could see all dungeon and raid content; it would just be tweaked higher for those who want more of a challenge.


that would do it! Bravo
12/28/2010 5:59 AMPosted by Lenta
Yes, research. Cause doing homework to play a game is fun?

Research? Really? Gear: wear whatever that is ilvl 333/346. That sure was hard. Encounters: "Hey, I've never done this before. Could someone tell me to do/look out for?" That sure was hard too. It also doesn't take a genius to learn encounters as they happen. I had no idea what was new about the 2nd boss in stonecore and I moved behind the pillar as I was getting hit. That was a stroke of brilliance wasn't it?


I'm more impressed that you're saying they're easy and you can't even get into them. Oh, of course, you must be posting on an alt, it's not possible that you'd be trolling about heroics when you'd never been in one. *eyeroll*

Someone else was talking about hating to explain stuff and telling people to read up on it. Can't be bothered finding it though.
Heroics aren't gonna change. Thank god for that
12/28/2010 3:28 AMPosted by Omèn
It took 2 minutes to read that, its not too long. It was well thought out and nicely put...

No, the format of what he wanted to say was not well thought out. OP could have said the same thing without taking up half a thread page.

For the record, I skimmed through the entire post. His argument seems to be "Heroics are too hard for some people, so you should nerf them for all". This is not a compelling argument. Especially since he doesn't have any proof to back it up. The healers he is talking about could be terrible players for all we know, or they could be playing with a group of terrible players.


The term Terrible players comes from players like yourself. One that has simply no respect for other players, just to satisfy your own "E-peen egoism", or you have forgotten what games are and should be, Fun!.

There is also plenty of proof regarding the heroic mode of several dungeons, and Blizzard needs to realize that. This ofcourse does not mean the entire and all heroics in the game need to be nerfed so that they are just as simple as regulars, but some things might be changed a little bit.

I think the dungeons are tuned fine. Like most everyone stated, once you get geared intelegently it becomes way easier.
I feel bad for your healer, she should not have to take that kind of abuse. On the other hand though this is a game that people feel very deeply about and there will be yelling at failure, wether it's deserved or not.
Doing homework is part of life, if you want to get better at something, you have to have optimal information. The thing is you don't have to spend an entire evening studying fight mechanics. 15 minutes watching a video and 10 minutes reading the walkthrough. Guarenteed to make your experiance better.
I admite that a LOT of people are intolerant of lower skilled players and thats really too bad. Not everyone has the same learning curve and some people just take longer to aquire skills to be successfull but that does not make them "Baddies"
The PUG i was in had 2 guildies with a vent, they posted details and i Joined up.

I'm glad some of you find people being abused is funny or amusing, I found it very sad and left group.

The problem is that if you get an LFD group that doesn't have heavy and spamable (in combat) Crowd control then you're basically screwed.

Am I a bad?

Compared to some of the super-stars who are posting here.. probably.

I think that levelling the gear between 10 and 25 man raids probably had something to do with this whole design concept of Cataclysm.

Personally I was worried about this being a brutal two-edged sword, 10 and 25 man raiders being able to access the same loot had to have a cost, it seems that this cost was to make the heroics much harder.

Here's some of my views about heroics..

The Good.

1. Unable to AOE packs of trash... fine, i am ok with that, having played in vanilla and BC CC'ing mobs and LOS pulling etc are second nature to me and the people I run with, this gets a thumbs-up from me, it also forces everyone to take a secondary job if they are on CC duty (or primary job really).

2. Harder hitting bosses.. that's ok, we got spammable cooldowns

3. New boss abilities or tactics.. again that's ok (mostly, see below) and adds a bit of a twist to
the usual encounter mechanics and gives players anohter thing to watch out for.

The not so Good.

1. Cast times on certain boss abilities is too short. I'm in my 30's (yes not everyone who participates in wow is a teenager or 20'something) and I know that my reflexes aren't as fast as they were 15 years ago, add the 500-600ms latency from Australia and that seemingly slow 2.something second cast time is suddenly something which if you are on GCD you're 'barely' going to catch!

2. Healers and mana. To me this is going to be somethign that continues to cause problems as more healers basically give up healing, yes I know.. superstar healers are probably now reading their twitter feeds and doing their stock trades while alt-tabbing to throw up heals like the heroe's that they are, but 90% of wow players are not super-stars.

Most people don't enjoy healing, many they do it because they either feel oblidged due to previous duties in WOTLK or they get faster queues, more than 80% of the kick votes i've seen pass in pick up groups have been directed at the healer.

Many heroic encounters have become like 'on/off' switches, if everyone is 100% on their game, 100% of the time, and the healer doesn't go OOM you can do it, if one person makes one mistake then it's GG.

Frankly after a few weeks of that people are just going to give up.

In WOTLK the hard-core elite players had their HM 25's, their super special gear, access to profession blueprints, special achievements, titles, proto drakes and flyig robot heads (HM Mimiron anyone?) and even special encounters (aka Algalon)....

For the rest of us mere mortals... we had normal mode 10 mans.

We were FINE with you guys having your higher level of gear, your special mounts, special titles, special gear, special sparkly leet stuff that let everyone know that YOU are a kick-arse one toon army of elite, great.. seriously props to you, I tip my hat to anyone who was good enough to kill hard mode Mimoron in 25 man or 10 man when it was current content in wotlk,

I salute those amazingly awesome people who eventually (after he was patched) downed C'thuyn in Vanilla wow or made it into Nax at lvl 60.

I know I never was nor will ever be as good you guys, i'm quite happy to play at a lower tier than what you guys can do, and frankly.. so is 90% of the wow population.

But these heroics... they're just tuned too tight, I personally don't enjoy them anymore and i've already pretty much done most of them, even done some of the heroic achieves.

WOTLK encouraged everyone to use the LFD system to help people experience content, especially after a while when a lot of people had moved past the heroics, now those same people are getting their heads kicked in for using the LFD system.

To me the difficulty of heroics combined with the LFD system is a disaster for the wow community, you really need to be in a guild.. on voice chat or be lucky enough to wind up with a Pro Pug who's on top of CC and already knows the fight (I've had a few pug's like that, but it's one in ten) in order to have a chance at beating it.

To those who say 'gear up'... if you are already in mainly 346 and 333 gear and not loaded up with tens of thousands of gold there's not a whole load of options available other than faction rep gear or getting fleeced at the AH.

Things I would do in regards to heroics..

1. Add some additional leeway on some boss cast timers, how many beta testers had 500-600 ms latency? I'd add about 500ms to them.

2. Too many 'instant death' abilities on bosses... if you're even half a second slow at moving you're dead... to me that's not just challenging it's just stupid and anal retentitiveness. Try doing heroic StoneCore with Pugs in the group or once again.. 500-700ms latency, it becomes almost 'pot luck' to get away before that first boss goes 'bang' and insta-kills your people.

Make those abilities hit HARD, that's fine. but don't kill everyone instantly, youll still be punished if you were slow to get out and unlikely to survive the entire fight.

This is what's making these encounters like 'on/off' switches, either everyone's up at the end or you all die, there's no middle-ground.

3. !!!DO SOMETHING TO HELP HEALERS!!!! The healers of WoW are suffering at present.

Respectfully yours.
12/28/2010 5:50 AMPosted by Cindyanne
I also find myself agreeing with you.

I wish the progression was more like Normal dungeons --> Normal raids --> Heroic dungeons --> Heroic raids.

This way, all levels of players could see all dungeon and raid content; it would just be tweaked higher for those who want more of a challenge.


this would solve literally everything.
I wish hitting "like" more than once had more effect, or that this was its own thread. I need some way for more people to see this post.
I don't see hubris or arrogance in blue posts. Maybe a little snark now and again, but you try doing their job and seeing how long you can go without posting a little snark. Customer service is never an easy job, and I imagine when the majority of the customers you are serving are frothing, hormonal teenagers that it can become really frustrating.

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