How can people learn?

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My coping process for dealing with characteristically negative experiences in game, is under constant development. Sometimes I try addressing the aggressors, sometimes I avoid them. I find I have little control over individual experiences. I can control me, my presence in groups, my contribution to others, my exposure to channels that might irritate me. If I assume the only player in game I can control is me, then I have to be willing to help when I can, drop groups when the outlook is dismal, and try not to bring others down when I get upset.

As far as helping people, I will generally answer questions to those who are willing to help themselves and want to learn. In fact, I have often found myself talking to someone for 10-20 minutes in response to a /yell in a city asking for help. What I am not responsive towards are people who don't in fact want help, but they want to take something, or find the easy way out. If someone asks for gold, I'll keep on walking; but if someone asks how to make gold, I light up like a Christmas tree. I can help teach others, but I have no interest on giving away what I have earned. In dungeons I typically won't offer someone suggestions to improve unless they ask for it - that's just risking being told off for elitism. But if someone asks a question, I'll give it a shot.

Inevitably I have to agree that players should help themselves when possible, and seek advice from others, not someone to carry them or do the work or research for them.

Kudos to the players in this thread who suggested universal help channels, or Blizzard and community leader managed guilds to connect people in need with those who wish to contribute.
01/21/2011 12:01 PMPosted by Khrogarim
External research should not be mandatory. This is a great game filled with content but very little tools are given to a player to expand their skill-set in endgame. These should be IN THE GAME.

This by Rippy. ^^

Sucks you have to get all the info on this game outside of the game, and even outside of the official website.

I know why they did it, its the RPG aspect of this game, but face it its not a real RPG you have to adjust your thinking.


I disagree with this point (in part). I believe that pretty much everything needed to learn is already in the game.

There are 85 levels with new abilities progressively added for the player to learn along the way (not withstanding that a lot of 80's got a large change and so had to relearn).

There are easier and harder dungeons for players to go into and learn teamwork and tactics.

The problem is player patience - In that I mean that players are no longer patient with each other, so the place where you learn has become so hostile that you can't.

And imo this is because most players are not where they want to be, they are on a daily treadmill with these dungeons... Everyone complains about queue times (cept for tanks/healers) - well go back to earlier in the last expansion and queue times didn't exist! players formed there own groups.
Go back to Classic WoW and for the most part players didn't even go into the dungeons unless they wanted to (raids not included).


Now outside sources of information have always been available and used for wow, if you wanted to smooth the experience a bit, you would go to thott or allakazam and learn (those used to be two of the most popular for wow) things that might save you from dying - but for new experiences in a dungeon, dying was a definitive possibility. Again because of the daily grind nature of this I believe players don't have the patience for that and so the new player that may have to get knocked down a couple of times while learning perhaps isn't so welcome for players that already know.

p.s. as I've not played any cata dungeons I fall in the catagory of learner
01/06/2011 7:49 PMPosted by Heartfire
In fact, I'd argue that most players are kind, fun-loving, helpful people


I wish they were, but let's be reasonable. This is World of Warcraft. There are a lot of bad apples. Not to say there are no kind people playing -- just that the jerks really seem to outnumber the nice ones.


It sounds kind of like real life. How am I supposed to learn real life if there are so many jerks in it?
Aloeverra, i could go all day and tell you how many times i tried to get to a lich king fight how close i was to killing lich king and how many people i helped in maeiv... Iam the kind of person that helps people... but, it comes to a point that those people that you help... run off to do thier own thing and leave you behind... I was a person that in one year I geared up this deathknight to the max and ten other toons all on horde side... I got fed up with raiding after seeing that in the end all warcrafts 1-3 have focused on the war between horde and allaince I played Starcraft 1 and 2 expansion included and Warcraft 2 and 3 but, i read the book for the first warcraft and TO THIS DAY I HAVE DIABLO 1 in mint condition... that is enough research for me to say that deathknights= hero class and as long as deathknights equal hero class I will use my deathknight to help others. I had a toon of every single class to know how each class is played and trust me I could brag all day. But, I'am one of those persons that knows the issues everyone has with thier classes and my best tip is"FIND THE CLASS THAT SUITS YOU, FIND THE SPEC THAT SUITS YOU, FIND THE TALENT TREE THAT SUITS YOU BECAUSE EVEN WITH THE WORST GEAR PEOPLE CAN DO THE IMPOSSIBLE.."
alot of the sites you go in like wowwiki,wowhead and all that stuff can put your computer at risk... third party programs are all the buzz these days I come from Conquer Online a old mmo that micmics World of Warcraft and do I want to go back to Conquer no way in a 1000 years...
Maybe there should be an achievement.. like the one you get for doing 50 random dungeons you get a little pug pet. Only everytime you finish a heroic or a dungeon with someone who hasnt completed it counts towards a similar achievment with a reward once you reach say 100,200,300. Sometimes I think people are willing to kick people who havent done a dungeon really qucik, Not because that person was bad, or they are incapable of following instructions to learn a fight but because theres a chance on reque to get a "better" healer/tank/dps that knows the fight.

Also.. I really really wish that it would let you reque solo, I have qued several times waited 40 mins as a dps gotten into the dungeon found that the other 4 are all guildies off a different server.. they get to the boss they wanted for loot, then all 4 leave and you have to restart the whole 40 min waiting process again, after this happens several times in a row it kinda makes someone give up. I know ive had my days where ive just said forget it im not getting my daily heroic done today. It makes me grumpy and less tolerent of newer players or people that dont know the fights as well because.. eventually your just kind of like.

OMFG CAN WE FINISH THIS TODAY PLEASE I NEED TO POOP K THANKS HURRY UP DONT SUCK.
I've never once kicked someone, been kicked, or seen someone kicked for asking for help with fight mechanics.
01/06/2011 8:31 AMPosted by Polymorpher
wowhead.com
tankspot.com
wowwiki.com

The internet has much better resources for learning than in game.


This guy is absolutely correct. Quit listening to people in the game. If you go to Dungeon finder and discover you've unlocked a new instance to que for, go to wowhead and have a look at what your responsibilities are in a particular boss ex: tank tanks boss, healz heal, range dps kill adds, melee dps help tank. Basic stuff like that. Just spend a few minutes scanning over what to do in the dungeon and youll be fine
01/21/2011 1:51 PMPosted by Massiner

I disagree with this point (in part). I believe that pretty much everything needed to learn is already in the game.


You lie.

If all of this is already in the game, using nothing but the in game tools tell me:

- Expertise soft cap
- Expertise hard cap
- Hit cap
- Resilience cap
- Define "ignite munching"
- List all the abilities that you can't copy from players with Dark Simulacrum despite their mana cost

None of this is in game. Sry. You lose. There's no expertise teaching quest. There's no resilience quest. There's no priority DPS rotation teaching quest.

Try again.

I disagree with this point (in part). I believe that pretty much everything needed to learn is already in the game.


You lie.

If all of this is already in the game, using nothing but the in game tools tell me:

- Expertise soft cap
- Expertise hard cap
- Hit cap
- Resilience cap
- Define "ignite munching"
- List all the abilities that you can't copy from players with Dark Simulacrum despite their mana cost

None of this is in game. Sry. You lose. There's no expertise teaching quest. There's no resilience quest. There's no priority DPS rotation teaching quest.

Try again.


I'll just quickly point out your post comes across frustrated and impatient, something that I think people are directing towards each other in the Heroics everyone is complaining about from both sides of the "learning" argument.

The soft/hard caps that you talk about are for performance tuning at the upper level. To my knowledge that is not required for Heroic 5 mans. To play at the top bracket, go the extra mile, most of the hard work has been done by others who helpfully provide detailed multipage guides...

If you don't want to read those, then I hardly see how Blizz can simplify that with a click this button, then this, then this, then this type quest. Most of those top rotations require understanding how they work and subtly adapting them as needed. And then factoring the class/spec builds with variations, the danger of prescribing a play style that may not always be appropriate etc... and well yeah it is better to leave that to external sources to provide.

Ultimately the way to learn is to play, and try things out. The game provides plenty of opportunity to do this, in the expansive game world itself, against training dummies, and in 5 man normal and heroic dungeons. And dying is a part of that training mechanism...

As I said above the actual problem is that player attitudes to each other in those 5 mans where you learn how to tackle them is notably impatient and hostile in quite a few cases making the learning part not fun either for the people learning or those trying to help and teach - this I believe is because of the mechanic of pushing players into feeling they have to do dungeons every day like some kind of job potentially with complete strangers that are never going to see each other again.



You lie.

If all of this is already in the game, using nothing but the in game tools tell me:

- Expertise soft cap
- Expertise hard cap
- Hit cap
- Resilience cap
- Define "ignite munching"
- List all the abilities that you can't copy from players with Dark Simulacrum despite their mana cost

None of this is in game. Sry. You lose. There's no expertise teaching quest. There's no resilience quest. There's no priority DPS rotation teaching quest.

Try again.


No you try again. Most of what you mentioned is explained in tooltips now. Everything else is learnable within 5 minutes of going to one single website. I would seriously rather trust a peer reviewed wiki than some random idiot in LFD.


So go for it.

Mouseover the expertise tooltip. Tell me what the cap is. Do it.

Mouseover the ignite tooltip. Oh wait.

Mouseover the hit rating tooltip. Tell me what the cap is.

Mouseover the resilience tooltip. Tell me what the cap is.

I'm waiting. You said it's there on the tooltip. So why didn't you answer the questions?

01/22/2011 7:26 PMPosted by Massiner


I'll just quickly point out your post comes across frustrated and impatient, something that I think people are directing towards each other in the Heroics everyone is complaining about from both sides of the "learning" argument.


I asked simple questions.

Why do you not need to be hit capped for heroics? Heroics do have a specific hit cap. It's different than the raid hit cap, sure. But it certainly matters whether or not you can hit a boss.

People claimed it's all there in the game. Except that it isn't.

If you were to go into the mechanics of the class down to the min/maxing, you'd actually discover that for most DPS classes, hit rating provides the most damage per point value compared to every other stat. So not being at the hit cap for heroics probably hurts you more than not having enough spellpower or enough strength or enough agility. Because being at 100% crit and 50,000ap doesn't mean anything if your ability missed.

The only things the game teaches you is that a mage shoots a frosty or a fiery boulder while a warlock shoots a shadowy boulder and a rogue likes to stab things from stealth. This is basic, common sense, visual garbage.

It doesn't tell an Unholy DK that it's bad to spam death coils because it overwrites runic corruption. It doesn't tell a fire mage that he wants to use combustion after a huge crit because ignite munching exists. It doesn't tell a rogue that killing spree will sometimes decide to drop you off a cliff. It doesn't tell a DK that army of the dead will taunt heroic bosses but not raid bosses.

These aren't things on tooltips. They aren't in quests. But these are mistakes I see people commit. How are they supposed to learn?

You insist that this stuff is in the game.

When I say it isn't, you tell me i'm impatient despite the fact that it truly isn't in the game.

So, maybe i'm impatient. That doesn't mean i'm wrong.
01/22/2011 9:25 PMPosted by Shayleah

I asked simple questions.

Why do you not need to be hit capped for heroics? Heroics do have a specific hit cap. It's different than the raid hit cap, sure. But it certainly matters whether or not you can hit a boss.

People claimed it's all there in the game. Except that it isn't.

If you were to go into the mechanics of the class down to the min/maxing, you'd actually discover that for most DPS classes, hit rating provides the most damage per point value compared to every other stat. So not being at the hit cap for heroics probably hurts you more than not having enough spellpower or enough strength or enough agility. Because being at 100% crit and 50,000ap doesn't mean anything if your ability missed.


I'm not saying that those specific examples are in the game, but I am suggesting that you don't need to be hit capped to get through heroics. Of course it will help, as a mage I would expect that hit is pretty important (I havent played the class), but I would also suggest that mages should have a fair idea that hit is important by 85 anyway. As for knowing if you need more hit, when you load up a nice spell and it misses, then I would suggest that you now know you need more.

I realise that isn't precise and could be frustrating to get to the right amount, but it is something that can be learned in the game - or to save yourself the frustration is easy to look up. The game isn't hiding that a spell or other attack is missing, and hit is a pretty obvious fix to that particular problem. min/maxing is where you make the determination to go to faqs...

Several of the things you describe can be learned by doing - part of which is wiping...
Sure some probably can't so easily be learned even then, such as a given spell overwriting another one - I wont comment on how important or not that is within heroics as I guess it would greatly depend on the team and how observant and well they communicate with each other.

I don't think that tooltips could exist (and be read) that include every interaction and boundary case of the spells - perhaps that is something that Bliz could do better, such as create a database - but really the information is available so even though Bliz could provide it, it just ends up being semantic; if someone wants to find out they can - if not then they aren't going to.


My impression of learning is more along the lines of actually becoming skilled at playing in a team in a heroic dungeon rather than knowing all the min/max stats and boundary cases on all spells (although it of course helps), and that fundamental appears to be missing - I'm talking tactics - using cc and interrupts effectively and on the correct targets - and of course out putting sufficient dps/argo/healing.


P.S. I did read your post as being a bit impatient/intolerant based on "you lie... sry. you lose..." etc (getting intended meaning is hard without body language so you can only go on wording). But really I wasn't meaning for it to be too directed at you, more so I was trying to highlight that is how people react to each other within dungeons, and this is hampering the learning process that could otherwise be taking place there - and so the player doesn't learn, but until they do enter and start that learning process in those dungeons, that wont change; it's like riding a bike - you don't learn how to do so by understanding physics, you do it by getting on a bike and falling off possibly many times.
01/23/2011 1:33 AMPosted by Massiner

P.S. I did read your post as being a bit impatient/intolerant based on "you lie... sry. you lose..." etc (getting intended meaning is hard without body language so you can only go on wording).


I intended my post and it's language to be harsh and with good reason.

If the goal is to create a more knowledgeable and enjoyable playerbase, why then are people so seemingly extremely opposed to Blizzard actually implementing a means to educate?

If a player wants to figure out how to properly play my class, why should that person have to go somewhere other than Blizzard? Why should that person have to read through 7 pages of calculations and theorycraft that they may or may not be interested in regarding content they may or may not participate in just to figure out what the generalized DPS priority system is?

Maybe it's obvious to some people. Apparently it's not to everyone. I joined a pug the other day. Apparently a new DK with talent points thrown around willy nilly and had Necrotic Strike in her DPS rotation. Can I blame her for putting Necrotic Strike in the rotation? Certainly not. If I looked at the Damage Dealing forums or the Death Knight forums, every other "NERF DK" thread complains about how overpowered Necrotic Strike is. But it serves very little purpose in PvE. So the information that could be gleaned from the official forums that complains about the DK's most "overpowered" ability actually hinders her ability to play her class in PvE.

So why are people opposed to Blizzard being the source for information? Is it going to break your game if the leveling team created a database so that the player didn't have to figure out good information from bad?

With keyloggers running around and if you were less than technically savvy, would you go to a site called "elitist jerks" (best WoW theorycrafting site)? Or "pwnwear" (DK tanking info blog/forum)?

Maybe you could learn by yourself with wiping. Except maybe you can't because as Blizzard readily admits, the game doesn't actually give you useful feedback when it comes to why you wiped. So you wiped. Tank died. Was it because the tank was standing in something? There's no damage taken meters in the game. Was it because the healer failed? There's no death event log that everyone can see. Was it because something wasn't interrupted? Was it because the DPS was too low (hit an enrage)? Was it because DPS was too high (pushed a phase too soon)? Sometimes, wiping doesn't help because what's available from just the game can often times not be enough.
01/23/2011 5:02 AMPosted by Shayleah

P.S. I did read your post as being a bit impatient/intolerant based on "you lie... sry. you lose..." etc (getting intended meaning is hard without body language so you can only go on wording).


I intended my post and it's language to be harsh and with good reason.


It serves to undermine you


If the goal is to create a more knowledgeable and enjoyable playerbase, why then are people so seemingly extremely opposed to Blizzard actually implementing a means to educate?


I wouldn't say people are extremely opposed, and certainly not to the goal of "more knowledgeable and enjoyable playerbase".

We are disagreeing on where the actual cause/solution lies, I believe that the playerbase has ultimately become impatient at working together (due to reasons I've posted previously) - and that learning to play better is just one of the casualties/part-causes of this. I believe that if the playerbase was more willing to be patient then the game itself provides opportunity to learn right and wrong ways. I can argue with the examples you give of why this isn't the case, you will then be able to re-argue with those examples and so forth; so it comes down to a matter of perspective.
You (correct me if you feel I am misrepresenting your position) believe that the game doesn't provide adequate opportunity to learn measures needed at the Heroic 5man level of play and so believe that taking steps such as quests targetting this would work to resolve that and lead to a "more knowledgeable and enjoyable playerbase".

I'm not convinced that it will work, but this is something we can disagree on and if Bliz did/do take up your suggestion I wouldn't be unhappy about it, and if it worked then that is good... I myself don't have any particular solution as I believe the problem is more fundamental to the concept around dungeons and item/player progression currently in place and believe that is something Bliz need to decide and consider for how they want their game to function.

01/23/2011 2:47 PMPosted by Massiner

It serves to undermine you


Only if you choose to use the internet as some sort of emotional crutch. If someone tells you you are wrong on the internet, maybe it's because you're wrong. Sorry for the bruised ego, i'm not your mom.

You (correct me if you feel I am misrepresenting your position) believe that the game doesn't provide adequate opportunity to learn measures needed at the Heroic 5man level of play and so believe that taking steps such as quests targetting this would work to resolve that and lead to a "more knowledgeable and enjoyable playerbase".


My stance is that in the game, there are not enough of anything to provide you either the means necessary to improve your gameplay or the tools necessary to determine what it was that was wrong with your gameplay to begin with.

So my DPS sucks. Why does it suck? No where in the game could I determine what spells I used and in what percentage I was using them to compare them to a player that was doing it better. So maybe I ask him/her. What then? He/she also wouldn't have the tools in the game to determine this without a third party utility to figure it out. The same goes for every role. Am I supposed to demand someone count how many times Scourge Strike was cast? That's beyond reason.

Is it a quest that provides information that will fix it? Maybe, maybe not. Is it a Blizzard compendium on the official website that will fix it? Who knows? The point is that the effort is made.

Blizzard already forced us to police their game for them. If their ideal is for the playerbase to step up to more challenging content, then give the playerbase the information and tools necessary to rise up to that challenge rather than throwing them to the wolves and demanding that the playerbase look elsewhere after paying for their Ferraris.
I was going to put those suggestions on my job application to Blizzard, but I think that opening it to the community creates the possibility for constructive criticism, and as a final goal, it create possibilities for game improvement.

I had 2 suggestions to avoid the tentative and error system we have right now.

1) Improved Target Dummy

Have you seen the chained yeti-like creature outside ToC? Imagine some sort of mini-instance where you could enter and fight chained beasts, weakened beasts, mind controlled targets or even mechanic (gnomish) opponents. On those mini-encounters, we would have a NPC that would give you instructions and answer to your responses, giving advices. Something like:

"You are in a room with your Protection Paladin Trainer in a bubble, in the corner. In the room are several kobolds, trying to escape through the door. The Trainer says: 'Use Consecrate to damage several of them, then focus on the enemy with more injuries.'

After your attempt it says: 'Good, but not optimal yet. 3 Kobolds escaped. Check where you are placing your Consecrate. Also, you haven't attacked the weaker enemy.'

2) The Guild Veteran

GC stated once that he wished there were some way to give players a hint of what a dungeon boss do on the first time a group face him. I think that there could be a guild perk to allow you to summon a seasoned member (NPC) of your guild before fighting a boss. He would give advice on the main attacks of the boss, without giving all the details. This way people could even drop the need to look for encounters over the internet, if they have a good guild with the rank for this perk.


What do you guys think? Thanks for any feedback.
We're definitely looking into ways to add more information about raid and dungeon bosses directly into the game client. For example, as discussed at BlizzCon 2010 in the Raids and Dungeons panel, we're already discussing the possibility of incorporating loot tables and boss abilities into zone maps. While "enhanced maps" are still in their formative stages, we love the idea of a player being able to access a variety of information about a specific boss -- including what it drops, what abilities it has, and maybe even some lore about who it is and why everyone in Azeroth wants to kill it -- just by opening the instance map and mousing over an icon.

This is all still on the horizon, of course, and would likely be something that's implemented in stages. Nevertheless, we agree that the game could provide better tools for players who are adapting to new content and are currently working to bridge that gap for the future (in a meaningful way that doesn't undermine or spoil the experience).

01/20/2011 4:05 PMPosted by Lucang
Please put a library or something in game where there are books players can read that describe all the dungeon/raid fights.
www.wowhead.com?
www.tankspot.com?
www.thottbot.com?
Google "wow bossfights help" or anything similar and you'll get any number of helpful sources.

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