Guild Rep is 100% Stupid.

General Discussion
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01/21/2011 7:30 AMPosted by Lakhesís
The system doesn't need to be absolutely un-cheeseable at the price of being irritating for more sane/conventional players.


^^^

Most of this can easily be solved by changing reputation gains to daily instead of weekly. Blizz just needs to understand that this system is great for higher level guilds, but not guilds that have 5-10 members that play sporadic times throughout the week. All I think anyone is asking here is for it to be fair for all.

Before anyone flames for saying, 'well join a larger guild'. I like playing with my real life friends and enjoy the game with people that don't make the game feel like a job. Have one of those, thanks!

Also change the Raid requirements for achievements to be a flat 8 people needed. Not having this makes no sense, when 40 man content can be taken care of solo to maybe 4 people tops. I am fine with it being 8 people though. As this way newer people can experience some cool content as a guild. Just another way, IMO, to keep small guilds down.

If Blizz does not like small guilds, then please let the community know. If that's not the case, then please fix the issues.
The system is working.

I agree with some of the comments regarding the usefulness of items, and in some instances the ratio of gain. That's tweaking though. No system is perfect out of the gate.

However:

1) You should get what you give. There is no reason why you should get insta-exalted with a guild you just joined. The rep is the guild's, not yours. Conversely, there needs to be a way for people who have obtained personal achievements to carry some of that into the next guild. A lot of guild rep power-leveling now is due to the heady days of early xpac. The system will break mid-xpac once the sweat-shop guilds RIF their membership and folks will have burned through most of their achievements. I *do* believe there needs to be a cap, but see no reason why someone who had earned a lot of personal achievements can't come into a guild capped at Friendly or maybe honored. There should be some way to recognize and account for the personal achievements (ie: bosses killed, personal achievements earned, quests completed, gear obtained). So I would add those in but not any points that would specifically apply to a guild achievement (ie, number of fish feasts dropped, flasks crafted, etc).

2) Do not ask Blizzard to social engineer the game. Please. For one thing that's a stupid thing to ask for. People are going to be jerks no matter what you do. For another, Blizzard's developers have as much knowledge and experience in social engineering as a ball-peen hammer. They're developers, not psychologists. The fact that they broke classes in order to try and force people to seat raids more "fairly" is a rousing testament to their inability to fathom the tenacity of human exclusionary behavior. All that happened was that raid organizers came up with different excuses to not seat people...but I digress.

IMO, If you joined a guild because they have 700 members and are power-leveling to the top, expect to be used and thrown away. That's what those guilds are built to be. If you really want to benefit from your investments, take the time to research good guilds. They may not be hitting max rank first, but chances are, you will reap the rewards for your efforts. And your efforts will be appreciated.

3) W00t for fairness! Now, for the first time, people are well and truly rewarded for their efforts. Whether or not the gains are worth the effort is another story, but the fact remains that as a GM, I LOVE this system. I have a relatively small guild. We are leveling the guild at a similar pace as the big sweat-shop guilds (maybe slightly behind). I have never seen so many players on every day. My top rep earners are raiders and farmers. Furthermore, a few weeks ago, a ex-guildie returned to the guild. He started at Neutral and is now just as Revered as my Second-in-Command, who has been in guild since its inception. And no one complained. The guildie EARNED every point of Rep.

The other thing I love about the system is that it breaks the caste system we have in this game. We have the Broiled Dragon Feast through the combined efforts of a Raider and a "casual" player. Now people can be recognized for their efforts and their contributions no matter what aspect of game play they prefer.

At the end of the day, the system is not perfect, there needs to be tweaks. But overall, the Guild Rep system has had a more positive effect than negative.

For those who have had sucky experiences with being kicked out of exploitive guilds, trust me when I say, when you find the right guild the entire mechanic changes. And you have my sympathies for the time you wasted on the idiots who stole your time and your accomplishments for their own wellbeing.


01/20/2011 12:53 PMPosted by Bashiok

Sounds great, here's how that would work out: I have an awesome end-game progression guild. We're level 25. You give me 20k gold, I send you an invite and promote you to the highest officer rank. You buy whatever rewards you want, and then leave.

This is not the intent of the system.


Now you're being absurd....

I'd charge at least 50k gold ;)

My thoughts on this whole business:

Relax! Big guild, small guild, do these perks really matter that much? Just do your dailies and dungeons, and watch the rep accrue. One day we will all have that Dark Phoenix :)
01/17/2011 2:06 AMPosted by Worgandonor
It makes absolutely no sense that the only way to build my rep up with a guild is to go around farming quests/dailies


This statement is wrong. You can get guild reputation doing heroics and dungeons runs with your guild. Read information before posting nonsense.

Also, notice that they have to be done with your guild. You have to bring players from your guild to get credit as guild and for that reason contribution, experience and reputation.
Looks like the forum ate my post the first time, so here's another try...

I'm not going to argue that the numbers on Guild rep are good or bad, that they do or don't need to be changed, or that we could or couldn't use more stuff that gave guild rep.

Granted, I haven't read all of these 30+ pages, but I've read several of them, and it seems to me that many arguments about it would diminish (or at least direct themselves more productively) if the thematic presentation of Guild Rep were more sound. Bear with me here.

Many rationalizations of arguments I see involves to greater or lesser extents the idea that the Guild in some form should have control over who gets rep. I won't argue against that. It's sound to question why a Guildmaster would be Neutral with himself. Thematically speaking (and I stress thematically, because it doesn't always play out in reality), the Guild-master should have the highest reputation to start. People who have been with the guild for a long time should also have high reputation. It makes sense that the Guild-master and the officers would be in that position because they trust eachother and because they are trusted, and that people who have long been members would be well-known and presumably well-liked by most of the other members.

After all, who is Blizzard to tell us who are our guilds' "Recruits", and who are our "Veterans"? Understand the spirit in which I say this is not one of anger or contempt. I pose the question to point out it is not Blizzard's job, nor should it be. Blizzard cannot keep track of all that members of a guild do for that guild outside of WoW, nor should they. Neither can they account for everything that one does for their guild while playing WoW, and again, they shouldn't. It's the job of the Guild to dole out reward and punishment, prestige and obscurity, to its membership. The Guild Rep system, as presented thematically, tries to take that power out of the Guild's hands to some extent, and quantify some portion of it, without any interaction by said Guild.

Thematically speaking, it would be better had Blizzard not presented the Guild Rep system as earning reputation with your guild, but earning it for your guild. Imagine that each quest you complete, each dungeon you conquer, each Raid boss that falls at your feet, doesn't increase your standing with your own guild, who should think you're great anyway if they trust you enough to take you along while they go fighting a major Evil in the world (of Warcraft), but that it increases your guild's standing with the primary factions of Azeroth.

Imagine that before the Cataclysm, the focus of the major factions of Azeroth (and Outland, of course) was on the individual, gaining powerful people for their ranks to fight the tough battles. They didn't care who else you were affiliated with, so long as you were willing to help them too. After the Cataclysm, just able bodies isn't enough. They know you're strong, and they figure you know other strong people. In this age of diminished resources, they need all the allies they can get, and so now they're looking at who you hang out with.

Your job? To make your guild look good to them. You do this by all the fancy things mentioned above. In this light, it makes sense that a Guild-master would be neutral, because it's not him neutral with himself, but his guild neutral with everyone else. Doing all those fun (or not so fun) things that earn you rep with other factions also earns your guild rep with those factions because they get to see the people that guild has in it. Your guild's "true reputation" would more or less be a culmination of all your members' rep, or a weighted percentage of it. Consider a large guild, with 150 members. Of those 150 members, only 20 are above honored. Compare to a small guild with 30 members, 20 of which also are above Honored. A greater percentage of the small guild's members are above Honored, and thus "look better" to factions like Baradin's Wardens, the Cenarion Circle, and the like. But again, I'm speaking thematically here, or if you prefer, "RP talk." No actual grudge is held by these NPC factions against the larger group.

Some of the titles tacked to the guild name would have to go, i.e, "Recruit" and "Veteran," and titles implying a more representational or ambassadorial role would have to be selected. "Champion" and "Guardian" may be passable.

Arguments based on or including variants of "guilds should control the aquisition of rep" would not have arisen (or would have been quickly crushed based on the presented theme) since again, you're not being assigned rep with your guild, you're earning rep for your guild from other factions. The only arguments left would be of numerical value: is rep gain high enough, are there enough tasks giving enough rep, etc.

As an added bonus (or not, depending on one's point of view), such a theme for Guild Rep would also have allowed Blizzard an opportunity later to make it so Guild Rep could go below neutral and open up the possibility of "outlaw guilds" for those so inclined. I'm rather neutral on the subject myself, but it seems to me there'd be a market for it, and I'm sure Blizzard would have found something sufficiently workable for it.

But alas, we earn rep with our guilds, not for them.
I just wanted to provide a little personal feedback to the dev. team regarding the guild reputation system. I meant to make a post on this but I guess this one is a good place to start. Obviously I am posting on an alt.

A little background

I have been enjoying this game since late BC. Overall, I have a great deal of respect and admiration for all the work you have put into WOW. My thumbs up for Cataclysm as well; Tol Barad and Archeology may need a little more attention, but overall it is an amazing expansion so far.

I have been raiding with the same guild for well over a year now. My guild is pretty decent, during WotLK it was always 3-4 on my server’s faction (25 man).

My guild decided to convert to 10 man progression as Cataclysm neared. We were to have 2 groups of 10 man raids or alternate raiders, but as many raiders left for a number of reasons, it was becoming clear that there may be only a single group.

I made a decision at that point. Based on my past performance and relationship with the guild, I thought I had a shot at making it to the core group. But… it didn’t happen. A month or so has gone by, the core group has cleared the majority of the normal raid content, while I and a couple others have been waiting for a shot. Just a few days ago I sat foot on a Cataclysm raid along with what is to become our second group. It was exiting to finally see the new raid content (Again, amazing job Blizzard; Thank you!!) but after 4 hours of mostly early wipes (except BH, just one wipe there) , it was rather a frustrating experience (this group had mostly alts from core raiders btw).

I am fairly certain at this stage that the guild’s leadership has little interest on forming a viable second group. Meanwhile, a few sidelined folks like myself, have been substantially contributing to the guild; Yet, we are facing the prospects of finding another guild. I respect their choices on who makes it to the core groups, a lot of of which has to do with RL friendships, as I am sure they would understand my desire to depart.

And now to the point

I have been on the top 5 (currently 3rd , 200+ members) contributors to the guild XP since the system launched; I am at revered atm. I have a couple of alts at 84 who have also provided substantial XP. I would like to look for another guild but loosing all my guild reputation and what it entitles seems a bit too much.

I fully understand the need to have mechanisms to encourage guild membership stability. I think most the new guild rewards system provides just that. However, many people, if not most, have good legitimate reasons to change guilds and this guild tied reputation is too taxing. I can also see that allowing guild reputation to be entirely on the person ( thus not lost if guild swapping) could lead to abuse of the system, but I’d argue that in its current state (giving a lot of power to one or few) can and I am certain at some point will lead to its own bag of issues.

Is there a middle ground? I can’t think of concrete ideas at the moment except perhaps having a reasonable initiation period if one swaps guild measured not by time but performance (assuming of course reputation is carried by the person independent of the guild).

Thank you again for all your great work and hopefully for reading my feedback.

01/17/2011 12:20 PMPosted by Redblueblurr
As for your previous comment regarding flasks etc. I think I can see who contributes to the guild on a larger scale as well via the use of the Guild Bank. Isn't helping the guild aquire the mats and items that help us all do things a valid part of contributing to a guild?


Sure, but again, that can be gamed. Making guild rep a meta game of depositing mats, to remove them, launder them, and re-deposit to exalted is not the point of the system. And while it would be cool to recognize those things, there's simply too many loopholes.


I think there could be a "alternative" way to measure contribution. I mean, it is already possible what stuffs are deposited or not. They even be tracked through the armory.

If a guild want to evaluate contribution, they use / design a special web application to track such activity. Assign a value for desired items (taken from a list of end-game materials).

Assign them a rank, value, tag or anything to know if it worths or not. You can also see who has contributed more and alike. Once you have determined your way to evaluate "currency". Let player invest on what ever they like.

It will be interesting to implement a "guild coins" and "guild shops".
Make this "shop" a special tag from the guild bank. It may be similar to the AH or alike.
Players may earn "guild coins" for "selling" special stuffs to the guild bank. Only stuffs from a list (and with a price) may be "sold" to the guild.

So players will start getting "guild coins" and such coins may be used to buy other goods transformed by guild members.

Indeed, they may put a price for deposit or withdraw items from the guild bank. All of them related with guild coins.
01/17/2011 12:05 PMPosted by Bashiok
The point is not to force you to do things you do not want to do, but instead be rewarded for participating in activities with your guild.


Not even remotely true. I can rep to exalted running solo quests, and quickly.

Or I can never go beyond neutral running random dungeons for 10 years.
At least you guys didn't transfer between accounts on the same realm only to find out that after you were a little ways into revered you are now down at neutral and the GMs can't fix it. Good thing I'm 85 and the guild is pretty much done with running guild heroics. Guild raiding really should provide more guild rep.
I'm not exalted in 1 month... burn blizzard... ahhh... everyone run... bunch a babies
01/20/2011 6:27 PMPosted by Mishotem


That would cause a whole host of other issues, and when someone legitimately works up their rep with a guild we feel that them keeping the reward is only right.

Punishing the majority who work to earn their rewards is not a solution.


Wait. I thought they lost purchased rewards if they leave the guild. I remember reading that.


Yeah, but the issue will remain for people paying gold to gain high ranks.
01/20/2011 6:29 PMPosted by Bashiok
I apologize, I don't intend to keep being combative against specific comments as if the system is perfect. We've brought up a lot of these concerns to the designers, I know for a fact they're constantly discussing it, and we're of course looking for ways to improve the system as a whole. To briefly reiterate, we appreciate the constructive feedback that's been offered or has yet to be posted.


Ugh, there shouldn't be any reason to feel that you have to apologize. Bashiok is probably my favourite blue, because he's so witty. It makes me laugh when he subtly points out how unreasonable some people are.

While I agree that the guild levelling, and guild rep system feel a little grindy, they're not really all that bad. It's hard to implement a system like this that won't get abused and promote the exploitation of players if they make it too easy to get rewards.
01/17/2011 2:06 AMPosted by Worgandonor
Thank you, Blizz. I thoroughly enjoy your design of using an arbitrary number to dictate what I can and cannot have in a guild I have been for months. It makes absolutely no sense that the only way to build my rep up with a guild is to go around farming quests/dailies. that are 100% worthless for me outside of building my guild rep. That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen implemented in wow currently. It's understandable you didn't want people to join a guild and instantly obtain all the associated perks of that guild, and if that is the case, then the perks should have been based on time spent as a guild member. Not time spent doing dumb, absolutely useless quests.

For those of you who are going to bring up Arenas, Rated Bgs, etc. No. I have done countless Tol Barads, countless arenas in both 2s and 3s, and countless bgs and at least 15 dungeons/heroics and I'm 1700 through neutral. There is absolutely no excuse for such an abysmal rep gain. We are a PvP guild. We shouldn't have to be PvEing, and pointless PvE at that, so we can enjoy guild perks. Period.


My issue is that bringing my alts into my guild i've been with for over a year gets me nothing ... my alts should share my rep since I AM THE PERSON IN THE GUILD. All my 85 alts should share my guild rep (lower then 85 i understand).
01/21/2011 8:51 AMPosted by Restoperry
This is a perfect example of how this guild system is going to kill smaller more casual guilds. How you may ask? Once a guild gets up in the levels, people will start dropping smaller guilds to join the larger ones for the perks. If you do 25 dailies a day you can reach the weekly rep cap in just a few days. I have hit honored with two different guilds, and this whole system will not force me to stay with any particular guild to avoid rep grinding a new one.

I dislike this system anyway. I'd much rather continue playing without being in a guild, however, now I have to be in a guild to obtain cooking feast recipes. I agree with the OP, the rep design is stupid. The guild tabard should allow rep when in max level dungeons and raids. (small amounts nothing huge) Instead of a weekly cap it should be a daily cap, that way you aren't just wasting days and days of guild activities and get nothing in return. I give this guild feature an F. I just see it as a way to force people to do things by being threatened with a gkick.


Maybe "killing" small guild won't be THAT bad. I remember a lot of people creating stupid guild just to have a funny name. Being a guild should be meaningful, not just something you create randomly.

Any casual guild may have a chance to grow as long they are active. They can call friends to join. The first levels will be a pain, but it's possible. It's not a race nor anything like that. People survived with out guild rewards for about 6 years, why they can't do the some thing again?

Over time, those small guilds may eventually grew up. They may become more attractive for new players and so they may continue growing. At least, as long as players use the guild as guild and not as an "alt's bank" or alike. Such mechanisms are clearly used by players to use stuffs like the guild bank slots but not truly to play with other players.

But I agree, the guild tabard mechanism may be interesting. But it should work only for guild groups and should consider a weekly cap.
01/21/2011 8:12 AMPosted by Magusjager
The guild rep system is actualy one of the best things blizz has come out with and its also one of the only systems that i have seen out there that actualy works. now when it comes to peopel that say "oh we should not have to do this if were officers" lol the best way to find out if your good for any guild is if you work to get exalted with your guild that way you can keep your rank. guild rep is the perfic indicator of how hard you work to make your guild beter.


Firstly I don't think the idea was terrible just maybe the implementation. I don't expect to reach exalted in a week and I have no problem with the rep level I have.

I agree that officers shouldn't start with rep they need to work at it too.

But i would like to point out guild rep is not the perfect indicator of how hard YOU work to make your guild better.

It IS the perfect indicator of how many Tol Barad dailies you do to get YOURSELF a gold and items.
It IS the perfect indicator of how many rep quests you do for a faction to get a 359 for YOURSELF

It is NOT the perfect indicator of how many guildies you help out by making 333 or 346 gear with blacksmithing/leatherworking etc... and not selling it on the AH.
It is NOT the perfect indicator of how much you help out other guildies with their skills buy giving them ore/herbs/cloth etc... instead of selling it on the AH.
It is NOT the perfect indicator of all the free flasks/gems/food/drums etc... you provide for raids
It is NOT the perfect indicator of all the time you take researching boss fights and helping out other guild members with damage rotations and PVP tips.
It is NOT the perfect indicator of all the times you take time and help a Lowbie in your guild with a quest.
It is NOT the perfect indicator of all times you hit pass on the chaos orb so someone else can make an epic for another guildie.

It's MAINLY the perfect indicator of how much time you spend working on things that ONLY help YOU.

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