Frost PvP Guide (Updated 9.20.11)

Death Knight
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01/24/2011 2:48 PMPosted by Libretto

I understand the mechanics. However using 2-3 talent points to fill a single GCD with howling blast doesn't seem worth it to me. If you had 3 points in rime, you'd be wasting half the procs if spamming oblit 2-3x in a row so you're only seeing the benefit of it 1/2 or 1/3 of the time and only for one GCD. In addition, there's a good chance you would not want to be casting a HB if there's a CC'ed target in range, so you'd IT for.. 3-4k damage, and only if you didn't have a KM proc which you'd be wasting by casting IT? Not worth the points.

The only time rime is good is if you get bad RNG with RE and get bad/no runes from FS spam, but if you're going for a kill and have a good opportunity, that's what ERW is for, you'd ERW at the end of FS spam for 3x oblit and 3-4x FS again.

I certainly haven't found rime to be worth taking in my experience, I can see there being some situations in 2s or 3s where one would wish they had it, but in rated BGs at least against good teams it's terrible and OAPH is vastly better for the runspeed increase / snare reduction.


This guide is more targetted towards arena. I honestly have not done nearly enough testing to be able to guide people in Rated Battlegrounds.

As for what I said earlier where you spend points in your talent tree is a personal preference sort of a thing. It just so happens just about every gladiator frost DK agrees with me on spec, but at the end of the day its your choice what to spec.

If we are going to make up theoretical situations about arena's we would also realize that at any high rated level of arena healers get quite good at kiting the %%*@ out of you. This doesnt mean that they will kite you the entire arena match, but about 10-20% of the time the best of healers will be out of melee range. Same thing goes for casters (using blink, teleport). Point being is if we are theoretically going to speak of arenas you would find that rime useful every single time that healer gets a bit out of range in which case you can then do 3-5 howling blasts over 2-4.

We can make up many situations that work for me and may situations that work for you. Either way again it is a personal preference thing so I do not see why we are arguing about this.
I'm thinking I may have to finally drop OAPH for Rime. Le sigh
Bookmarked.

Thank you guys so much for your work.

Andry said in the other thread that he would drop On A Pale Horse for 2 points into Rime. I guess I can see doing that and was considering it already. With the nerf to howling blast AoE though is Rime gong to be worth it over the 30% reduction to certain CCs?

Darkcore, why do you not use Unholy Command and also why do you only have 1/3 of Killing Machine? Just curious... I'm not nearly informed or good enough to criticize.

Edit: C/P from the other thread:

Also what abilities as a Frost Knight can I pretty much just not stick on my bar or get away with not hotkeying something I can easily hit / don't have the muscle memory developed for? I already have three filled and use ctrl and alt to use them, but with the need for focus and mouseover macros I think I'll need to trim this down.
01/25/2011 9:54 AMPosted by Weekral
Bookmarked.

Thank you guys so much for your work.

Andry said in the other thread that he would drop On A Pale Horse for 2 points into Rime. I guess I can see doing that and was considering it already. With the nerf to howling blast AoE though is Rime gong to be worth it over the 30% reduction to certain CCs?

Darkcore, why do you not use Unholy Command and also why do you only have 1/3 of Killing Machine? Just curious... I'm not nearly informed or good enough to criticize.

Edit: C/P from the other thread:

Also what abilities as a Frost Knight can I pretty much just not stick on my bar or get away with not hotkeying something I can easily hit / don't have the muscle memory developed for? I already have three filled and use ctrl and alt to use them, but with the need for focus and mouseover macros I think I'll need to trim this down.


Alright first question Rime over On a Pale Horse. Again this is a personal preference thing more than anything. You are going to get CC'ed in arena. That is just a fact. I just do not find 1 second off the duration of a full CC to help me that much in arena. I do find that the added damage helps quite a bit.

If I am about to get CC'ed at a time when I could get a kill I will usually use a cooldown to prevent that CC. Rogues, Pallys, and Warriors I use Icebound Fortitude. Mages, Warlocks, Shamans, Priests I use lichborne.



Second question please look at the spec that I posted in the thread. My current spec was something I was doing some testing with 2 weeks back and I have not been able to change it due to being in the middle of moving. The spec posted on the first page is the spec you want to be playing with.


01/25/2011 9:54 AMPosted by Weekral

Also what abilities as a Frost Knight can I pretty much just not stick on my bar or get away with not hotkeying something I can easily hit / don't have the muscle memory developed for? I already have three filled and use ctrl and alt to use them, but with the need for focus and mouseover macros I think I'll need to trim this down.


Alright keybinding is completely personal preference and should be something you are very comfortable with. I do not know how you all are having problems with finding buttons for your various abilities, but this is how I have my keybindings set up.

F1-F3 (presences)
1-5, Capslock, E, R, T, Y, F, G, H, V, B, `, middle mouse button,
Shift of everything above
wheel mouse up, wheel mouse down
I also have a razornaga mouse so those buttons are all bound also

I use every single keybinding so I guess that puts me at 49 keybindings. Some people keybind all of their main attacks to the razornaga mouse. I personally do not, but again that is just a personal preference sort of thing.
Thanks for the replies... I'll work out my keybinds.
ive adjusted my spec countless times so far heh. grinding honor while my RL friends and future teamates get ready.

what is your take on butchery vs blade barrier. as i understand it blade barrier is worth 400 resilience while butchery only grants 1 RP every 5 seconds and relying on the secondary effect seems bad form (but this is coming from a rogues perspective not taking a t1 talent similar to it in function)

Ive been getting a bit more used to rotations and such in pvp. still gonna require a lot of work. as for the pale horse. with many CC's being reduced to 8 second durations. 30% is 2.4 seconds off. im not sure if its good or not.

me and my friends are gonna do a frost dk, holy paladin, unholy DK 3's team (waiting on unholy dk to get its last few levels). and while a part of me would like a resto shaman for hex, its simply not in the cards for us atm.

so any tips on this comp? (other then dont do it lol)

also, i read all 12 pages of the last thread but not all 4 of this yet. glyph of strangulate. its only 7 seconds if you use it as a interrupt. and as i understand it ill be using it more as a blanket silence after hungering cold to avoid things like psychic scream and such. my UH dk partner will most likely have it though.

what do you think is the best candidate of removing for dark succor? seems like a must for pvp survival next patch.

and, really, is there any decent ilvl 346 weapons i can get that are not in raids? im close to the sword form hellscreams reach. but its stats are less then ideal...

overall i like you and andry's posts, very informative and helpful.
01/25/2011 2:11 PMPosted by Baines
ive adjusted my spec countless times so far heh. grinding honor while my RL friends and future teamates get ready.

what is your take on butchery vs blade barrier. as i understand it blade barrier is worth 400 resilience while butchery only grants 1 RP every 5 seconds and relying on the secondary effect seems bad form (but this is coming from a rogues perspective not taking a t1 talent similar to it in function)

Ive been getting a bit more used to rotations and such in pvp. still gonna require a lot of work. as for the pale horse. with many CC's being reduced to 8 second durations. 30% is 2.4 seconds off. im not sure if its good or not.

me and my friends are gonna do a frost dk, holy paladin, unholy DK 3's team (waiting on unholy dk to get its last few levels). and while a part of me would like a resto shaman for hex, its simply not in the cards for us atm.

so any tips on this comp? (other then dont do it lol)

also, i read all 12 pages of the last thread but not all 4 of this yet. glyph of strangulate. its only 7 seconds if you use it as a interrupt. and as i understand it ill be using it more as a blanket silence after hungering cold to avoid things like psychic scream and such. my UH dk partner will most likely have it though.

what do you think is the best candidate of removing for dark succor? seems like a must for pvp survival next patch.

and, really, is there any decent ilvl 346 weapons i can get that are not in raids? im close to the sword form hellscreams reach. but its stats are less then ideal...

overall i like you and andry's posts, very informative and helpful.


Like I said on the first page butchery over blade barrior just has to do with if you are the main target on your comp. If you find that the opposing teams are usually on you then you most likely want to go blade barrier...if not then you dont need it.

On a Pale Horse is a preference thing. I personally do not like the talent all that much since I find DK's have a remarkable resilence to CC when we dont want it (i.e. lichborne, IBF). If I get CC'ed at any other time, well whatever you are going to get CC'ed from time to time. If you are on a good team you will not have to worry about your teammates too much. 2 seconds in my opinion is not game changing unless you are a healer.

I would not suggest this comp to be completely honest. It used to be good with double unholy DK cuz you could stack Necrotic Strike into oblivion...but the same class with overlapping CC is bad news. You want each class on your team to bring a new added benefit to the team.

If you are absolutely stuck on playing it then you want to set up kills with hungering cold and your burst. Sit on a dps, blow all of your cooldowns and then follow this simple chain of events (make sure your unholy DK is targetting the healer when he blows gargoyal....and that his pet is already on the healer). Have the frost DK death grip the other dps into a hungering cold. Both DPS are at this point stuck. Then the unholy DK death grips the healer into a pally stun...after the stun silence, pet stun and he should be dead. If the dps trinket out of the CC, and manage to stop his death then repeat in 1 min time.

Glyphs are all personal preference. I personally find myself using it for both a blanket silence and a interrupt. As for Dark Succor this will replace Anti-Magic Shell if you are currently using it.

Now as for weapon...the weapon from hellscreams reach is actually quite good for DK's. That is the best you are going to get as far as blue's go. The higher the top end damage the better the weapon is for DK's.

If you are really persistant you can also try to get the epic 359 weapon from archeology. You have to have lvl 450+ archeology and then you have a chance to get it for every troll artifact you turn in.

ty much darkcore. i didnt think about the reach weapon having such a slow speed and therefore high top end damage. arent weapons normalized though? whatever that means.

and yes we are rather set on the group comp. mainly due to restrictions. uh dk has a resto shaman, holy paladin has no alts and his other spec is pve prot.

and my rogue is currently working on archeology, mainly farming troll too. but reality ill probably have a arena weapon before then.

also i cant help but feel as a frost dk and a UH dk that we would really only have strangulate as far as overlapping CC goes. he has pet gnaw, desecration, i have hungering cold and CoI root (this is considering next patch obviously). though i could be missing something. later (much later) we might be able to try dk, affliction lock, resto shaman. but right now the lock is only level 16 and its slow going :)
01/25/2011 2:54 PMPosted by Primigenia


If you are really persistant you can also try to get the epic 359 weapon from archeology. You have to have lvl 450+ archeology and then you have a chance to get it for every troll artifact you turn in.


Not meaning to derail the thread, but it is much easier and less aggravating to simply grind 5 wins per week for 3 weeks to get the epic 359 weapon rather than go through the hassle of leveling archaeology. Archaeology in RNG wrapped in RNG wrapped in a hard shell of RNG with a little RNG thrown in on the side just to make you contemplate doing horrible things to whoever came up with the idea of the profession.


Lol not derailing at all...i just assumed that he would have already known about the PvP weapon. I was just giving him his options...there are a couple people who had that weapon 24 hours after cataclysm came out. Some people are just great at leveling things.
Àndry is there any way we could get a screen shot of your UI?
just curious.

Thanks
Gonna try out the spec you posted. First season of arena for me and I've done pretty well in a 2H Frost DK, Frost Mage, and Discipline Priest 3s group. I set up a personal macro to use Pillar of Frost and my PvP Strength on use trinket that I use after charging in with a Hungering Cold. My team decides the first kill target while I'm riding to them so I immediately Outbreak that target after the HC, pop my macro, then Obliterate x2 + ERW + Obliterate x2 again. If they aren't dead by then I know for sure I just forced the healer to trinket out of the HC to drain their mana on our kill target. I'm sure with the Strangulate macro that I've neglected to get until now will help if I put it on the heals once they break out of the HC? Gives us a little more time to knock out the target ASAP.

Also a pretty good question. Is expertise worth hitting the cap, or should I disregard it entirely and stack haste after hit cap? Sitting at 6.48% haste right now but I feel I should have it higher.
01/26/2011 4:01 AMPosted by Gousuke
Gonna try out the spec you posted. First season of arena for me and I've done pretty well in a 2H Frost DK, Frost Mage, and Discipline Priest 3s group. I set up a personal macro to use Pillar of Frost and my PvP Strength on use trinket that I use after charging in with a Hungering Cold. My team decides the first kill target while I'm riding to them so I immediately Outbreak that target after the HC, pop my macro, then Obliterate x2 + ERW + Obliterate x2 again. If they aren't dead by then I know for sure I just forced the healer to trinket out of the HC to drain their mana on our kill target. I'm sure with the Strangulate macro that I've neglected to get until now will help if I put it on the heals once they break out of the HC? Gives us a little more time to knock out the target ASAP.

Also a pretty good question. Is expertise worth hitting the cap, or should I disregard it entirely and stack haste after hit cap? Sitting at 6.48% haste right now but I feel I should have it higher.


Expertise is pretty much useless for pvp...do not bother stacking any expertise. If anything reforge out of expertise...the reason why blizzard felt the need to put expertise on PvP gear is beyond me.

As for stacking haste I would make sure your spell pen capped, then stack strength. Haste is just what you want to reforge to if a piece of gear does not have haste on it. If it already has haste then reforge the other stat that is not haste to mastery. If it has both well then don't touch it that is a great piece of gear.

Also I would suggest having your priest run in with you...most likely the healer will trinket in which case your priest can fear. Then just go from fear into your mages polymorph and then ring of frost on top of the polymorph....all of these CC's have to go up 1 sec before the last one ended and you should pretty much own most teams.
/bump Thx for the info, very nice read
Very good post and discussion.

With that said, you do seem to contradict yourself a bit in regards to rime and the importance of PVP burst.

Sustained damage definitely has its place in PVP against great teams and long games where constant pressure can mean everything.

Now you list your "perfect" pvp rotation and the advantage that rime gives you something to work with when you have that free GCD. How often though do you get that perfect 12 second rotation going against a good team though? Way too much stuff is usually going on for that too happen. How often are you there thinking "well my rotation is going swell, now what do I do with this open GCD I have"? I would argue barely ever, either you are being CC, kited, stunned, or focusing on doing your own CC, kiting, etc etc. all while using your priority system to either put out the best dps that you can or to be defensive.

And I am thinking forward to the patch anyways, howling blast nerf along with its CC break in arena, along with chains of ice being the new go to skill for anything kiting means I am of the opinion rime will soon completely suck for PVP.


I actually spoke about this earlier in this post. Yes you are completely correct that you will almost never get a perfect rotation in due to the various variables in arena. I actually stated that just for a theorycrafting point of view for best damage per ability.

If you read this post you would have read that what I said is that rime comes in handy quite often when those specific things happen that you just mentioned.

Lets say for example you do start getting kited quite a bit in a match due to the opposing team laying down good peels. If you save that Rime for right when that person gets out of melee range you will be able to put out an extra Howling Blast everytime than you would have without it. I have noticed this happening in arena with me quite a lot.


Do you think this will change when you are given the 3 second root on chains of ice with the patch? Do you plan on keeping rime at that point or spending the points elsewhere?


I like to research things in forms of both theorycrafting as well as in game experience so as of right now I do not know.
So... why not Glyph of Death Coil over, say, Frost Strike? Especially with the change with Death's Embrace?

15% extra healing is a nice additional chunk, especially not being able to spam Lichborne-DC so much.

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