Why Druids are Frustrated

General Discussion
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First of all, thank you Blizzard for making so many good games. I only buy your games. SC, Diablo and WoW are more than enough to satiate my appetite for gaming and I am happy. So, because I love you so much, I will make a constructive post without marring it with ridiculous accusations but still address some issues that are relatively poignant.

The Druid forums are on fire right now and even the tanking and arena forums have had a lot of accusations of “Blizzard hate feral” or other such nonsense but I wanted, as a player to try to explain what these posts fail to get across due to their anger and irritation overriding their rational ability to communicate and what you can do to make us feel a TON better with very little effort

The overarching theme of all of our complaints and frustration is that we feel forgotten (by both CMs and devs).

First, why we feel as we do about the Developers:

1. Low Level Tanking--When Cata came out, there were countless changes and it was obvious that a lot of thought had gone into class design all around. 3 out of 4 tanking classes were given excellent, very powerful tools to help them breeze through low lvl dungeons and hold agro from heirloomed mages and warlocks. Low lvl dungeons are not like Cata dungeons. Warriors, DKs and Paladins almost never stop running while they are in them. We can clearly see that thought went into their design so they could do their job. Feral has no such tools. I shouldn’t have to explain how horrid feral tanking is before lvl 81, because I am confident that you already know it since it is your game. We feel like you put thought into the other classes and then just skipped us entirely.

2. Feral PvP—Many classes complain about PvP and nerfs, but the reason it hurts us feral so much is that through our entire existence, we have never been a good class that you would want as your partner in arena. We were always overshadowed by the other melee classes. For a SHORT time at the beginning of Cata, we were strong in large part because our bleeds were stronger than they were in Wrath. In response to this, not only was the bleed problem fixed but we, as a pvp class, lost so much utility that we are now in a worse situation than we were in the 3 previous expansions. In addition, we felt that our most unique abilities were the ones being targeted. Mangle is not unique and bleeds are not unique. But shapeshifting is who we are. But the reason we felt so frustrated about this was how easily it seemed to us that the decision was to throw it out. We made posts with more than 100 pages of feedback that are still active today but we have heard only a vacuum from you regarding this complete change of our spec and our identity.

3. Bear threat—The reason we feel frustrated, primarily, is that in the first patch of cata there were 2 obvious conclusions to be drawn from bear tanking: our single target threat was too high and our aoe threat was too weak (both are relative comparisons to the other 3 tanks). We expected fixes. However, it really irked us that you were so selective in choosing what to address. ONLY our good point was addressed and our bad point has been left untouched even though virtually every player will admit that in a dungeon, you better be EXTRA careful with your dps if your tank is a bear because bears are weaker than the other 3 tanks at holding multiple mobs even if they do everything perfectly. It removes a lot of fun to be thought of as the “gimpy” one especially if there is nothing you can do about it (it also discourages us from tanking which then hurts everyone because of the tank shortage). Again, this can be dealt with by begging the dps to take it easy on you but it is no fun to know you are the only class that has to beg like that. Sure, Cata has less aoe tanking and more CC, but there is no reason for 1 tank to continue to be significantly weaker than the others when the difference is so obvious.


Now, about the Community Managers—Please, please post something about any of the 3 above issues. Make us at least know that Blizzard is aware of them and that you have the desire to do something about it. Studies have shown that people rate their doctors not on how well they diagnose but on how well they show that they care. It’s the same for us. Just tell us that you know about them and are want to do something to fix them. They are 3 issues that have been discussed a TON (feral pvp has had countless posts and an ongoing threads now numbering in the hundreds of page of posts). We don’t want to FEEL ignored anymore and you CMs and do so much with just a very short post.


I think I will leave it like that. I hope you remember how much I love you and your games. I’m not gonna stop playing but I do want you to know why I and many others (there are not a lot of feral players so when you see us post a lot it indicates a lot of ire on our part) are feeling frustrated right now.

I hope you choose to respond in this thread as I kept my promise to discuss a poignant topic but kept the discussion respectful and free from juvenile threats or accusations.

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EDIT: Seems like everyone is in agreement with my bear arguments. Regarding argument #2, warriors have received some attention in the dps forum http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2057305923?page=4 that is rather interesting. Warriors are in a slightly better spot than feral right now due to the fact that they don't need as much up-time as we do, they have 4 gap closers per minute as that thread points out, and charge is unambiguously superior to feral charge because it stuns the target which allows you to at least do SOMETHING before he can get away. Feral charge only moves you and is easily blinked away from or rooted away from before we can get any hits off.

Warriors from Wrath till now have lost some mobility and gained some (heroic leap and their "new skill" in the next patch. Feral have only lost...and we were worse than warriors to begin with.

I don't plan to attempt to fully explain why ferals are hurt more by our shapeshifting nerf than the other classes but you can read a thread that is still going at 101 pages here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1869409947. PvP utility is complicated because a melee class needs more than just "gap closers", there are also all of the other skills such as magic shield that help. Also some melee classes require more uptime to do damage and bursty damage is better in PvP. We are the least bursty and require the most uptime of the melee classes. Feral was designed from vanilla beta to have our shapeshift ability which is why we did not get the ability to get back into stealth easily and get another opener and why our "charge" doesn't stun and why we don't have magic shield. Removing shapeshift without redesigning us the rest of the way is like a surgeon opening a patient but not finisheing the surgery. We need Blizzard to finish what they started with us or at least close us back up rather than leaving up open and under anesthesia that is starting to wear off....
Voted up. I wish everyone on these forums could be more like you.
It's sad the most well thought out and constructive posts are rarely commented on by Blues, they tend to only acknowledge the ranting idiots.
Obviously not in all cases, but that's what I've seen lately.

Goodluck.
02/17/2011 7:54 PMPosted by Trollibear
2. qq about pvp feral is a waste, pvp changes happen every patch everyone gets kicked in the nuts, frost mages excluded.


You think you're contributing something?

You aren't. You're doing nothing but whining like a bratty little kid. If you want Blizzard or other people to listen to you, try being more like the OP.
Bears seem to make horrible tanks now, I'll give you that.

But when it comes to PVP, I feel like Ferals had immunity to way to much and it was damn near impossible to get them down, or control them; therefore, they would control you. My own class/spec just now has viability, and although Imp Recupe could use a 1-2% nerf, I feel like druids in PVP have just been brought down to most other Class/Spec (minus DKs, Furys, and maybe Pallys and Mages) playing level.

Furys are just pretty much broken completely, as they have a huge, huge, HUGE damage output then no defense or any type of sustained damage. The others are a bit weird for PVP in their nature, minus Mages, which, well make your own opinion lol.

Yes my own class has a bit more survivability than we should have, but only by a VERY small marigin, and compared to other classes that would do even more if they wanted, Druids being one of them, it hardly becomes a real issue.

Now, Bear tanks do need some help. But, making them more viable tanks, which right now they do suck more or less, when compared to other tanks at least, but to make them viable without screwing up their PVP advantage is a tight-rope walk. That much is true.

I think it's great you are trying to make a constructive post and that your intentions are pure enough. But Druids in PVP just have to get used to it; forever as Mut when Sub damage was total crap we had to deal with having 1/2 CDs to get us out of snares, and has worse damage than Ferals and most other melee classes.

I think it's a matter of getting used to, and accepting you weren't quite as awesome in PVP as you thought you were. I see plenty of Druids doing fine in arena, and others who think they are at a disadvantage, which they aren't. Could they use maybe a 3-6% damage increase? IDK, maybe, but nothing that could be done would make much since; Ferals shouldn't be able to get out of any snare or root they want, period. It makes them a bit better against casters, sure, but it makes them completely impossible to kill for most melee classes.

If you want something more for Ferals stop asking for the shapeshifting buff. I suggest druids really taking a look at their class compared to others instead of what you can't do or can't kill. Do some more research; Ferals are more or less fine in PVP. Small tweaks? Sure. But I know if I get caught by a Feral I'm still worried about it and have to do something fast or I'm dead. Just because a Mage can kill you... well... As I said;

Welcome to the rest of us melee classes. It takes more than a gimmick to really get somewhere in PVP.
Great post , i hope you get your blue comment , also even though i dont play a druid i have seen you all get hit hard , hope things het better.
Great post OP.

We're over 100 pages in the druid forums.

Maybe this will get some kind of blue response.

But I doubt it.
Great post OP.

We're over 100 pages in the druid forums.

Maybe this will get some kind of blue response.

But I doubt it.


Your NAME.
Some things.

First of all. Great post. It pretty much sums up most of the feral problems.

Your PvP argument is weak however. They are trying to make all classes more similar to one another. There is not a game breaking ability that has not been spread out (MS for example)

While I agree the feral nerf was harsh, the class in general is in a better place than it was in WoTLK. Ferals always had the ability to do great damage it was just VERY difficult to use in a PvP encounter. Now it is far easier for a feral to do very nice damage



Likewise @ mobility nerfs in general. Its working as intended. There is a blue post in general chat regarding the Jugg change. Read that and than understand.
Bears seem to make horrible tanks now, I'll give you that.

But when it comes to PVP, I feel like Ferals had immunity to way to much and it was damn near impossible to get them down, or control them; therefore, they would control you. My own class/spec just now has viability, and although Imp Recupe could use a 1-2% nerf, I feel like druids in PVP have just been brought down to most other Class/Spec (minus DKs, Furys, and maybe Pallys and Mages) playing level.

Furys are just pretty much broken completely, as they have a huge, huge, HUGE damage output then no defense or any type of sustained damage. The others are a bit weird for PVP in their nature, minus Mages, which, well make your own opinion lol.

Yes my own class has a bit more survivability than we should have, but only by a VERY small marigin, and compared to other classes that would do even more if they wanted, Druids being one of them, it hardly becomes a real issue.

Now, Bear tanks do need some help. But, making them more viable tanks, which right now they do suck more or less, when compared to other tanks at least, but to make them viable without screwing up their PVP advantage is a tight-rope walk. That much is true.

I think it's great you are trying to make a constructive post and that your intentions are pure enough. But Druids in PVP just have to get used to it; forever as Mut when Sub damage was total crap we had to deal with having 1/2 CDs to get us out of snares, and has worse damage than Ferals and most other melee classes.

I think it's a matter of getting used to, and accepting you weren't quite as awesome in PVP as you thought you were. I see plenty of Druids doing fine in arena, and others who think they are at a disadvantage, which they aren't. Could they use maybe a 3-6% damage increase? IDK, maybe, but nothing that could be done would make much since; Ferals shouldn't be able to get out of any snare or root they want, period. It makes them a bit better against casters, sure, but it makes them completely impossible to kill for most melee classes.

If you want something more for Ferals stop asking for the shapeshifting buff. I suggest druids really taking a look at their class compared to others instead of what you can't do or can't kill. Do some more research; Ferals are more or less fine in PVP. Small tweaks? Sure. But I know if I get caught by a Feral I'm still worried about it and have to do something fast or I'm dead. Just because a Mage can kill you... well... As I said;

Welcome to the rest of us melee classes. It takes more than a gimmick to really get somewhere in PVP.


The thing is that feral was somewhat balanced in arena prior to this expansion even though we had shapeshift all along. There was never any complaints that feral was OP until Cata. If anything, we WERE always overshadowed by the other melee classes (especially warriors, DKs, and rogues). You rogues were always part of the holy trinity of RMP. You were fine, but we never were, even though we could ALWAYS shapeshift.

That is because our pvp playstyle was balanced around our core ability: shapeshift. We have no good way to get back into stealth like a rogue. We have no good way to disorient or blind the target. Our damage always relied on being plastered to the target because we can't do larrge amounts of damage fast like the warriors could. We couldn't spell reflect, we could't magic shield. The ONLY thing we could do is run fast and stay on them. And even then, we were weaker than then other melee classes.

So what changed in Cata to make us strong?
1. We got a reliable interrupt on a 10 sec CD. That is big.
2. Our bleed damage went up because of mastery

That's it.

The bleed damage was noticed and nerfed 10%. There was no feral outcry from that because we knew it had to happen.

As far as our interrupt, that was not changed, but to lose shapeshifting AND berserk fear break due to that it just going WAY overboard. We are undeniably worse off than we were prior to Cata. But what hurts at all, is that interrupts are not the signature abiltiy of our class, mangle is not unique, bleeds are not unique to use. But shapeshifting is what makes a feral a feral. It would be like taking away your vanish. It changes everything. But most of all, it changes our identity and removes our unique feeling. Now we are just a rogue who is not as good a rogue

Remember people that we feral were never ever OP in arena due to shapeshift. That has been in the game since the beta of vanilla according to my understanding. We were temporarily OP due to bleeds being high and that was already fixed.
Main thing for me is finding out my druid could no longer be played how i have been for years
when I found out I can no longer root mobs in place while moving.
Thats how my friends and I took down alot of epic mobs. Keeping them from getting close enough to my druid by running around and rooting in place.
Saw the changes...thought...meh I don't really pvp that often. Then got on my dk alt...and they have everything we don't for tanking. And my warrior. And my Pally. I'm not nearly as eloquent as the OP, and I've been drinking (alot lately it seems, more as I run more dungeons). I quit before ulduar for aion (d'oh). I quit about 2 months before the end of wrath ( for frickin LOTRO of all things).

Now, I logged in yesterday and couldn't keep aggro for squat in packs, and had to Work fairly hard on bosses over a frickin ret pally and a fury warrior...Not looking for easy wotlk tanking but one can only get kicked inna face so many times before they decide to reroll. Actually, the Rift beta is going pretty good...and looking better every time I read a 100 page thread on feral that doesn't even get one single solitary blue response. Juggernaut response? a shared cd?

Have you even read what you are doing to bears/cats? p##@h...nother drinky callin. Just feels like the game is pushing me away, not making me want to play it (which...you'd think they want me to play, no?)
/agree /sign for a blue post on this issue

Cat ferals were fairly well decimated by these changes in PvP. I have been in multiple situations where a mage roots me then stands just out of range and "/spit" and "/lol" at me. At times they will not even kill us just run around rooting us and lulzing.

So, yes I can shft to caster form and drop one of my two DoTs (I could try to use a timed cast but it will never fire off as everything interupts), but considering I am wearing leather and will be polyed the second I pop out of form, its really no choice at all.

I have heard warriors, DKs, and Pallys all try and compare feral to them. not even close, we don't wear plate, we don't even wear mail, we wear leather.

We are now rogues without vanish and with a few small heals. Oh yeah, we can heal, but the HoTs we have didn't scale well with cata and I heal maybe 5k total off a HoT in full agl/stam gear and it takes 8 seconds. In that time ive been burned down by burst damage thrice over.

I have been switching my gear out for more spirit/int, but that reduces the cat's damage and the bear's ability to tank and the result is generally the same the fight just takes a bit longer.

So where I used to have decent time on target, now I sit and get "/spit" on by mages. Even mages have been posting in the Druid class forum to say it is too easy to kill us and they want us to have shifing out of roots back.

There was a middle ground I feel that was not used where a diminishing returns cool down on root break through shift could have been used, but instead root break shift was nuked for ferals.

So, I have nothing else to say. I stated this over and over in the class forum which received no response.
As much as I agree and understand the point of view I doubt we'll see any immediate changes to help improve us in PvP or tanking. Blizzard tends to nerf hard and fix later. I believe they have even stated that's how they would rather balance classes/specs. So we'll have to deal with until Blizzard notices the feral issues. This is three expansions in a row we've opened with a feral nerf early on. TBC: Mangle was doing much higher damage than it should have been so it was nerfed. Wrath: Cat dps was buffed a bit too high and then nerfed down a bit. Cata: Mobility has been nerfed. Hopefully Blizzard will take note sooner rather than later and fix issues accordingly. It really wouldn't take a lot to make us viable in pvp again. I've left my pvp feral to sit on a server for now.
02/17/2011 6:31 PMPosted by Daxxarri
In fact, we'd arrived at a place where melee in general just had too much up-time on casters, especially healers

*diffrent forum blue post*
too much up time on casters that arent mages...........................

nice post btw.


ps: let it be known 2/17/2011, i quit my druid and hang him up till some type of relife comes.
i refuse to go balance.

i guess ill reroll rogue since they are stealth and energy based
and druids are currently the same as rogues right now, without the cds.




I would like to restate that the druid community would really only like some sort of communication. Anything. Really. Even a "Yep, we're looking at it." sort of deal. This would go a long way in relieving frustrations over these changes.

Second, as a community (generally) we accept the damage changes. We are, however, still confused about the Berserk and mobility changes. This is where the above point would be helpful.

Third, I would like to remind fellow druids that constructive posts are needed now more than ever. Angry posts do nothing but cause anger and more frustration.

Thank you.

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