Why Druids are Frustrated

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Bears seem to make horrible tanks now, I'll give you that.

But when it comes to PVP, I feel like Ferals had immunity to way to much and it was damn near impossible to get them down, or control them; therefore, they would control you. My own class/spec just now has viability, and although Imp Recupe could use a 1-2% nerf, I feel like druids in PVP have just been brought down to most other Class/Spec (minus DKs, Furys, and maybe Pallys and Mages) playing level.

Furys are just pretty much broken completely, as they have a huge, huge, HUGE damage output then no defense or any type of sustained damage. The others are a bit weird for PVP in their nature, minus Mages, which, well make your own opinion lol.

Yes my own class has a bit more survivability than we should have, but only by a VERY small marigin, and compared to other classes that would do even more if they wanted, Druids being one of them, it hardly becomes a real issue.

Now, Bear tanks do need some help. But, making them more viable tanks, which right now they do suck more or less, when compared to other tanks at least, but to make them viable without screwing up their PVP advantage is a tight-rope walk. That much is true.

I think it's great you are trying to make a constructive post and that your intentions are pure enough. But Druids in PVP just have to get used to it; forever as Mut when Sub damage was total crap we had to deal with having 1/2 CDs to get us out of snares, and has worse damage than Ferals and most other melee classes.

I think it's a matter of getting used to, and accepting you weren't quite as awesome in PVP as you thought you were. I see plenty of Druids doing fine in arena, and others who think they are at a disadvantage, which they aren't. Could they use maybe a 3-6% damage increase? IDK, maybe, but nothing that could be done would make much since; Ferals shouldn't be able to get out of any snare or root they want, period. It makes them a bit better against casters, sure, but it makes them completely impossible to kill for most melee classes.

If you want something more for Ferals stop asking for the shapeshifting buff. I suggest druids really taking a look at their class compared to others instead of what you can't do or can't kill. Do some more research; Ferals are more or less fine in PVP. Small tweaks? Sure. But I know if I get caught by a Feral I'm still worried about it and have to do something fast or I'm dead. Just because a Mage can kill you... well... As I said;

Welcome to the rest of us melee classes. It takes more than a gimmick to really get somewhere in PVP.


The thing is that feral was somewhat balanced in arena prior to this expansion even though we had shapeshift all along. There was never any complaints that feral was OP until Cata. If anything, we WERE always overshadowed by the other melee classes (especially warriors, DKs, and rogues). You rogues were always part of the holy trinity of RMP. You were fine, but we never were, even though we could ALWAYS shapeshift.

That is because our pvp playstyle was balanced around our core ability: shapeshift. We have no good way to get back into stealth like a rogue. We have no good way to disorient or blind the target. Our damage always relied on being plastered to the target because we can't do larrge amounts of damage fast like the warriors could. We couldn't spell reflect, we could't magic shield. The ONLY thing we could do is run fast and stay on them. And even then, we were weaker than then other melee classes.

So what changed in Cata to make us strong?
1. We got a reliable interrupt on a 10 sec CD. That is big.
2. Our bleed damage went up because of mastery

That's it.

The bleed damage was noticed and nerfed 10%. There was no feral outcry from that because we knew it had to happen.

As far as our interrupt, that was not changed, but to lose shapeshifting AND berserk fear break due to that it just going WAY overboard. We are undeniably worse off than we were prior to Cata. But what hurts at all, is that interrupts are not the signature abiltiy of our class, mangle is not unique, bleeds are not unique to use. But shapeshifting is what makes a feral a feral. It would be like taking away your vanish. It changes everything. But most of all, it changes our identity and removes our unique feeling. Now we are just a rogue who is not as good a rogue

Remember people that we feral were never ever OP in arena due to shapeshift. That has been in the game since the beta of vanilla according to my understanding. We were temporarily OP due to bleeds being high and that was already fixed.


You shouldnt be able to slip back into stealth like a rogue, you have heals. You arent supposed to have a 'blind' like ability. You have to keep in mind that every druid is a compromise because you do everything. You are never going to get all the tools you think you should have for any one spec because you have to carry the tools for all specs.

I agree that shifting out of roots was a feral thing and removing it completely might be hasty. THe question becomes how do you make it so shifting out of roots carries a much heavier cost so you cant spam it. It shouldnt be free or almost free, you should have to pay a decent amount of resource.
Cata just sucks, sorry but it does, it is so hard to even play this game anymore, i take breaks and it still just sucks, cant chant gear between lvl 200 and 300 anymore unless its all northend mats.. Druids suck so bad right now i cant even do TB w/o dying so fast from all the instant spawns, which is another fail from blizzard... i cannot even begin to spell out all my frustrations with wow since cata...

im logging and playing another game, tryed to do some bgs but that twin peaks is just another wsg and after 15 minutes i had a total of 1 honor, thanks blizz, this game used to be good..

Maybe if i didnt lvl my druid first? i wouldnt have such a sour taste in my mouth for this game? My other chars seem to have no problems dying with one ad, in fact i can gather up 2-3 mobs on some of my chars and take them out. NOT on my druid.. sic of burning thru my food, pots, to just die so ez.. been here since beta, not a newb, cant say i really know how to play my 10 lvl 80+ anymore as blizz so completly changed everything about them them all.
You shouldnt be able to slip back into stealth like a rogue, you have heals. You arent supposed to have a 'blind' like ability. You have to keep in mind that every druid is a compromise because you do everything. You are never going to get all the tools you think you should have for any one spec because you have to carry the tools for all specs.

I agree that shifting out of roots was a feral thing and removing it completely might be hasty. THe question becomes how do you make it so shifting out of roots carries a much heavier cost so you cant spam it. It shouldnt be free or almost free, you should have to pay a decent amount of resource.


That's the point, it was like that originally. Druids have not always had the Natural Shapeshifter talent. Back then, it was a common tactic to root a druid repeatedly for the sole purpose of running them oom.

Also like to point out that you are correct, we shouldn't be exactly like other classes because we're hybrid and can use other abilities. However Blizzard over the years has made talents such that each spec will find other forms not related quite useless. If I'm not mistaken the rogue self heal is actually better than feral druids atm.
Cata just sucks, sorry but it does, it is so hard to even play this game anymore, i take breaks and it still just sucks, cant chant gear between lvl 200 and 300 anymore unless its all northend mats.. Druids suck so bad right now i cant even do TB w/o dying so fast from all the instant spawns, which is another fail from blizzard... i cannot even begin to spell out all my frustrations with wow since cata...

im logging and playing another game, tryed to do some bgs but that twin peaks is just another wsg and after 15 minutes i had a total of 1 honor, thanks blizz, this game used to be good..

Maybe if i didnt lvl my druid first? i wouldnt have such a sour taste in my mouth for this game? My other chars seem to have no problems dying with one ad, in fact i can gather up 2-3 mobs on some of my chars and take them out. NOT on my druid.. sic of burning thru my food, pots, to just die so ez.. been here since beta, not a newb, cant say i really know how to play my 10 lvl 80+ anymore as blizz so completly changed everything about them them all.


eh. I leveled as bear. My bear can easily handle 2-3 mobs at at time. I don't consider that a problem.

I don't pvp.

My problems with Feral are:
1. Our regen plain stinks. It used to be more powerful than anyone short of a dk, making my healers life much easier. My guild healer loved my bear as he could throw some dot's on me, keep an eye on me and work the dps. Now he has to keep constant attention to my health meaning dps die as result.
On the flip side on my pally or dk my healer can back off and keep the dps up too.

2. As the OP mentioned, threat, threat, threat. I mark. I tab target. I do everything 100% right. But if the dps makes ONE mistake, I completely lose control of the mob. It's too un-forgiving to errors. Warriors, DK, Pally don't have this issue. Yes, if a DPS ignores the marks, they can losse agro. Blizz wants that, and I am okay with it. But for ferals right now it's too intolerant to a single mistake will flatten us.

Good points OP. I hope Blizz pays attention, but I am not hopeful. My bear is mostly parked other then dailies atm.
Bump for Love.

It's still in the air, amirite?
I think this is a good thread. The op clearly put some thought into the post and tries to make their feedback as clean as possible.

It is the type of thread I think we should encourage.


Then why not ask one of the CMs to come dump a post on us?

That would encourage further threads such as this one.


I just did, in my own way... but the CM's decide that completely at their own discretion. They'd also need time to communicate with the developers about this topic anyway.
Well, I can say I appreciate your feedback Snowfox and I hope here soon we can hear from the devs or a CM about the topic.

At least largely this thread seems to be constructive in nature and I hope it stays that way.

I know that I have mentioned it several times, but I have been increasingly frustrated at a seeming lack of response on the issue. Many druids at the moment are feeling very ingored.

I'm sure that the devs are aware of the issues and I suspect they are listening (I hope so), but in the end, the silence is deafening.
If I had to change something for aoe tanking, I would reduce the cooldown of swipe from 6 seconds to 4 or give it a boost in threat generation. I've been tanking heroics for a while and I haven't had too many issues with it, but I think swipe was nerfed a bit much.
02/18/2011 12:21 PMPosted by Xeqtr
If I had to change something for aoe tanking, I would reduce the cooldown of swipe from 6 seconds to 4 or give it a boost in threat generation. I've been tanking heroics for a while and I haven't had too many issues with it, but I think swipe was nerfed a bit much.


Honestly, I think this plus some sort of threat generation mechanic would help immensely. I don't bear but from what I've had heard this could be a relatively simple fix for a lot of people.
Bump
I think this is a good thread. The op clearly put some thought into the post and tries to make their feedback as clean as possible.

It is the type of thread I think we should encourage.


But it will still be ignored...

There have been many well thought out and well put together posts put up, and then deleted.
1 and 3 are valid and well thought out, thank you for raising the posting quality here a notch.

2 is a bit off target still. Yes, the rage is generally due to the change "taking away something they had grown to love and expect" - but things change in an mmo. Every class loses things, or gains new things and has to learn to use those in addition to (or in place of) old and known mechanics.

The shapeshift change has been explained, and it makes sense (even if some/many druids dislike it). At this point it would be more productive to accept it and then begin discussing what other things can change to address the other defecits in PvP while still adhering to the new model for roots/snares in regards to melee/ranged.
I like this thread so far. If bliz wants to keep all the changes that they made for us I think we should be able to cast spells that had a cast time that are instant do to Predatory Strikes in cat form. One thing that would be nice is if Berserk broke fear but that was it. Some of it I do agree with but I think it when a little over board with the changes. To help with bears aoe let us cast thorns in bear for the cost of rage. It wont do much for anything but for pve but will help us alittle on aoe threat. We are in a bad state right now for aoe threat. I know every other tanking class I have played with has very little problem with aoe threat. Single target was little high and needed to be tone down. For cat i would like more of a reason now to FB then sup 25%. We could use a small buff and that could be a spot for it. Or change the glyph on it so it is a damage increase and makes us want to use it. I am not a numbers guy and cant tell you what number it should be at or what.

I do like raiding a lot more then in Wrath. I think yall been doing a good job for the most part. Just needs some tweaking here and there to balance things out. Cant make everyone happy.
Druids really do need some sort of root breaker still. Heck, I'd be fine if shapeshifting broke roots but on a 15 sec internal cd (same length as blink) with perhaps a slightly increased mana cost. It keeps most of the classic druid playstyle intact while still balancing them better. Every other melee pvp spec has a root breaker except druids and ferals have LESS DPS and LESS USEABLE tools while rooted than any other class. Switching to caster to try and heal through it with pathetic feral heals means death, same with bear form as its magic mitigation is terrible in feral PvP gear.

Berserk should maybe have its duration increased slightly as well (maybe 5 secs) to make it more useful as a 35 point talent now that the fear immunity is gone.

Swipe does need its cooldown lowered and threat generation raised. Damage could be tweaked slightly but is less important as it may cause pvp issues. Druid tanks currently have to work 3x as hard as any of the other tanking classes and there's no excuse for it since all of the tanks are hybrid classes (especially pallys. No offence but man do you guys have it good when it comes to AOE tanking.)
02/18/2011 1:53 PMPosted by Aromi
Druid tanks currently have to work 3x as hard as any of the other tanking classes and there's no excuse for it since all of the tanks are hybrid classes (especially pallys. No offence but man do you guys have it good when it comes to AOE tanking.)


I think this is an excellent point. Pallies and DKs do multiple things well. My Pally is simplisitc to play compared to my druid.

I play ferals on both my druids and the issues are numerous. The biggest issue is I can't just swap from caster to feral, feral needs stam/agl gear and casters need int/spir gear.

It's not just flip the switch to second spec and roll. I am geared completely stam/agl and now i am having to change everything over due primarily to this single shift change. That's alot of work for a single change.
Anyone figure out that dispel removes roots just as effectively as shapeshift except the big difference is it can be used on others? For a feral to remove a root they'd have to burn a GCD, but by no means are we immune to fear, stun, freeze, or cyclone. It's my understanding that this was mainly implemented to protect mages so i have to ask the question what self respecting mage wouldn't have one if not two forms of stuns built into his spec? Perhaps i'm wrong and this was designed to keep us off of healers. I don't know very many well geared healers that would go down to a single feral. If anything they are the tanks of pvp and we should be on their faces all day.

EDIT: On a side note how does that even make sense, the best shapeshifters are the only ones who can't shift out of roots?
3. Bear threat


Spot on. It's not fair that other tanks get AoE threat abilities and bears don't. We shouldn't be "that" tank where DPS have to wait before they can start DPSing.

Most DPS aren't even aware of this because they aren't familiar with bear tanks (I rarely get a bear in any of my randoms) so they treat them the same as the other tanks where as soon as the tank jumps in you can go to town. So I am constantly getting DPS pulling threat off of me before I can establish threat via tab lacerate tab lacerate tab lacerate.

It's one of the reasons I hesitate to do heroics. Why would anyone want a bear tank? I'd figure they'd rather wait an additional 5 minutes to get a prot pally or something.
so nice when a style of play consistent for 6 years, is completely destroyed in one patch, because they died in an arena/bg match.





Bump...

Excellent post. You address all our issues in a poignant fashion. It would be nice to get a Blue response, as I have been waiting for one for weeks.

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