a quick look into hunter traps (freezing)

Hunter
this post is here to request the return for hunter traps (freezing trap to be more specific) to effect multiple mobs (aka have multiple mobs frozen at a time)

Drawbacks of hunter traps in comparison to other CCs
-requires pathing to trap (not targeted)
-has a decent CD
-puts a separate ability on CD
-broken on any damage
-can be resisted even if hit/spell pen capped
-has an arming time
-has a very small activation radius
-cannot be macro-ed (because it isn't targeted)
-moderate difficulty to use effectively
-cannot remove dots

this list is not saying that all other CCs do not have at least 1 or 2 of these drawbacks, as sheep is broken on damage and hex has a CD (just some examples)

the 'perk' of hunter traps over other CC
-can effect multiple mobs(this is now gone and i am making this thread to argue for it to be returned)

freezing trap is a unique CC, sap is also a unique CC which has its benefits (can apply outside of combat without starting combat)

recently the one benefit to hunter CC was removed, and yet sap still does not put the mob into combat (just an example)

trapping took skill to do (expesially when you could not lay a trap in combat [back in early vanilla] XD ) but was made easyer with cataclysms new abilities

-trap launcher
-scatter shot (becoming a base line ability)
-camo (when you had to get a little closer)

these abilities did not bring trapping in line with the simplicity of other classes CCs, which can all be macrod to the focus target for quick easy use, while trapping still requires pathing to accomplish (target must run over the hunters trap)

thgese new abilities just took down the skill level requirement to trap 1 mob, while multi trapping still requires foresight on mob pathing (how they move when put into combat), undertsanding on how to make the mob run over a trap if an unforseen event occures ( group gets pulled from weird position [making them run around trap]), abiltiy to quickly CC a second/third mob in combat (3 was the intended hard target cap due to trap durationV.S.trap CD)

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multi trapping has been in game for over 5 years, but this isnt the 1st time they tried to remove it, this was attemted to be removed before by blizzard back in BC, and was reverted after the hunter community conviced them that because of all the additional drawbacks of hunter traps(listed above), it deserved the benefit of being able to effect multiple targets (which btw is not easy to do effectively: quickly and safely)

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/67244/upcoming-hunter-improvements
avatar: Eyonix
Blue Poster
Target Source #0 - 2007/11/21 07:54:15 PM
I wanted to share with you some changes affecting hunters that are coming in a small patch. The effect of aspect of the viper is being increased. Pet leveling speed will be substantially increased. Lastly, it will once again be possible for two freezing traps to be in place at the same time.

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on the PvP aspect of multi trapping
the duration for freezing trap in pvp was reduced to 8 seconds while the lowest possible CD on freezing trap is 22 seconds

making it require premeditated action to even HOPE of trapping 2 people at the same time in pvp, after all other players can easily avoid hunter traps if they notice the hunter kite circle (in pvp hunterts typically try to kite people to run into their trap and will try to keep the trap between them and the other player but if the other player notices they can easily sidestep it)

with this said multi trapping is not to be a consern in pvp due to the rarity that it would occure
this ability has been very useful in the BC when CC was required, but the group was lacking in classes with a valid CC
now with cataclysm CC is once agian a very needed aspect for getting through H dungeons and raid content

Impact of Removal
with the removal of this game mechanic hunters can no longer assist their group if they are lacking in CC ability, to the same degree

Example of Impact
now lets say we are in a 5 man group for H Throne of Tides and that the group makeup consists of 1 hunter, 2 DK dps, 1 warrior tank, and 1 pally healer
the first pull (the 2 melee mobs and the 2 casters)
hunter:
-lay trap right infront of 1st then waits on CD
-gives the ready signal to group
DK(1):
-death grips healer into melee range, where tank picks up
DK(1/2):
-interupt caster from healing
Warrior:
-picks up caster, and the other melee
hunter:
-scatter shot 2nd caster, then trap lauch it into a trap
Group:
-burn down caster, then non CCed melee, then trapped caster, then other melee

this pull was made a lot easyer due to the hunters CC ability (this is not taking hunter spec or pet into the equation)

this is only 1 example of how multi trapping is effective and benefitial on a group level
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here are some reasons to keep double trapping (these are quotes from Gharbad from "Double Freezing Trap Needs to be Reinstated")



1. Its fun.

2. It requires actual skill by the player. This isn't something you can make a macro for and press one button to do, it requires patience, placement, and practice to effectively pull off. Hunters should be rewarded if they acquire the skill to double trap

4. Its a trade off for how clunky our CC is. Traps have always been the most difficult CC to use as it requires pathing prediction, accounting for the flight and arm time, and 30 seconds of wait if you mess it up. There will be no 'resheeping' here if you miss your target. Now because our CC is non targetable and has all these caveats and restrictions (spell resist, long cooldown, pathing prediction, arm time, flight time, extremely small trigger radius now) the trade off is that if we succeed with all of these, then we can trap a second Mob.

5. It doesn't 'trivialize' PvE content. Yes, we can (could) drop excellent CC in a large pull and help the group out. Yes, I've saved many a healers bacon by dropping a second trap when the healer pulls aggro. But we still had to clear those mobs and other than the one example stated, it doesn't come into play in any boss fight. Further, a second character could drop a CC and negate the hunter multi trapping on that fight, in which case you'd have the same result as stated. Finally, is it so bad to have one fight where a hunter shines for reasons other than 'leet dps'? We were one of the few classes that could kite General Drakkisath in vanilla and I don't remember cries of 'OP'. So while its very powerful against trash mobs, it doesn't trivialize boss fights. And thats where to money is, so to speak.

6. Finally, its important to the community. Some class defining abilities blizz has had to change recently for pvp balance issues. I feel for those classes as its no fun to have major changes in play style foisted upon you years later. But those at least have a justification in pvp balance. The removal of double trapping does not carry such justification as I've laid out above. The last time they attempted to remove double trapping, we as a community came together and in a calm and respectful manner laid out why the ability should be kept. We need to do so again. If this turns out to just be a coding bug and something they'll revert, great! If not, we need to convince them that it was not the correct decision and show why we are a better class, and its a better game, when double trapping exists.


(3 was skipped because it restated what i said about pvp)

so in conclusion, me and many other hunters that had the skill to multi trap feel that we should have the ability to multi trap back, and an explanation as to why it was stealth nerfed

please discuss your opinions, explaing why you do or dont support this, and dont just say its OP, ive explained why its balanced with its drawbacks V.S. advantage
To be honest, I think they just need to add a new ability.
Freezing Arrow-Ice tipped arrow that freezes the target......
It could have the same basic CD and cast time as other class' cc abilities. IDK, just a suggestion.....
To be honest, I think they just need to add a new ability.
Freezing Arrow-Ice tipped arrow that freezes the target......
It could have the same basic CD and cast time as other class' cc abilities. IDK, just a suggestion.....


id prefer to keep my multi trap over this but if they refuse to return it then making a targeting 'freezing trap' would be the next best thing because it would be a lot easyer to use, and a lot less cluncky (though i realy dont like the idea of dumbing down this classes machanics even more)
another thing they could add if they insist on making this change perminant is making to so freezing trap literally freezes all current dot/hots on the target and making it immune to dispells so the hots cannot be removed, and neather can the dots, until the target is out of the freezing trap (which would be done by waiting out the duration or taking direct damage/aoe or using a trinket/escape mechanic in pvp)
This change just seems counterintuitive especially considering several talents of the survival tree.

It always seemed to me the ability to trap on cooldown was the trade off for having the most clunky and least reliable form of crowd control.

Are there several encounters multi-trapping has an effect on? Certainly, but does it trivialize?

Most hunters truely don't believe so, but we'd love to hear the thoughts behind this.

All multi-trapping really does is buy small amounts of time for either you or your group, based soley on the ability of the player.

02/17/2011 11:02 AMPosted by Tschai
All multi-trapping really does is buy small amounts of time for either you or your group, based soley on the ability of the player.


this is one reason multi trapping should stay, its a display of skill by the player with their class

another thing is, it never kills anything, it might keep your healer from having to flash of light VS holy light (using pally as an example), but it wont stop the need for healing, nor will it stop the need for the tank to keep agro, or the dps to kill the mobs that are loose, all it does is reduce the preasure on the group by maing the encounter longer but safer rather than a dangerouse aoe fest where the healer cant, or can barly keep the tank alive, did it make the encounter a little safer? of cource, its just like basic physics, if a car is going 65 mph, then goes to 0 in under 1 second, chances our everyone in the car is dead, but if that same car decelerates to 0 over 5 seconds, the people in the car should not have any major injuries if any
I don't feel like a red headed step child...Maybe I should see if Goblin hair comes in that color.

Like I said in another thread I really do not want any attention. I strongly believe in be careful what you ask for.

Not sure what they did with survival but after the patch something bad happened. No Worries I have moved on.
While certainly not fishing for blues, we are patiently awaiting a time when those in charge can comment on this issue. I understand there's many aspects of this game that take precedence over something like this..

But to those of the hunter community where multi-trapping has become synonymous with playing a hunter not only well over the years, but correctly..

Just want to know the brainstorming behind this, thoughts from the source...especially why this isn't considered important enough to be listed within the patch notes.
I don't feel like a red headed step child...Maybe I should see if Goblin hair comes in that color.

Like I said in another thread I really do not want any attention. I strongly believe in be careful what you ask for.

Not sure what they did with survival but after the patch something bad happened. No Worries I have moved on.


multi trapping has been in game since the begining of wow, it was removed in BC and very quickly brought back into game as the blues relized that hunters deserved this as their CC was the hardest to use, it was the one advanatge that hunter trapping had to make up for its many disadvanatges, and multi trapping took skill (trapping 3 took a lot more skill and was rarely done anyway because it was usually not neccesary to have 3 trapped at 1 time)
I guess sense Blizz gave us trap launcher they can take away double trapping

You know Blizz can't give hunters anything with out taking something away
You know we actually had a launchable freeze trap precata right?
02/17/2011 5:13 PMPosted by Hunkidory
You know we actually had a launchable freeze trap precata right?


yes i do, which kida makes the benefit of trap laucher helping with CC irelevant,as we tecknically already had it
well they deleted the other multi trap threads, along with almost all the threads....

at least this 1 is still here considering it took the arguements of a lot of those threads to make this one :D


if you want to help support this movement please like the 1st post to help get blue attention
Traps are fine, the double trapping thing happens on and off thru expacs.

Same thing happened in tbc when people were doing heroics suddenly hunters couldn't double trap when people were dying spam rogue npc spawns in shadow labyrinth before the 2nd boss.


Pretty sure they're ok with double trapping patches seem to break it sometimes I've noticed.

Hunters have great crowd control. You can snare and root entire groups of people launching an ice trap after using multi-shot (concussive barrage)

Freezing trap is fragile and you have to be meticulous as all hell with it, but so doesnt aimed shotting out of camo, brings a whole new meaning to the talent careful aim trying to prevent that auto-shot breaking CC/Camo while you're setting up burst.
Traps are fine, the double trapping thing happens on and off thru expacs.

Same thing happened in tbc when people were doing heroics suddenly hunters couldn't double trap when people were dying spam rogue npc spawns in shadow labyrinth before the 2nd boss.


Pretty sure they're ok with double trapping patches seem to break it sometimes I've noticed.

Hunters have great crowd control. You can snare and root entire groups of people launching an ice trap after using multi-shot (concussive barrage)

Freezing trap is fragile and you have to be meticulous as all hell with it, but so doesnt aimed shotting out of camo, brings a whole new meaning to the talent careful aim trying to prevent that auto-shot breaking CC/Camo while you're setting up burst.


it was removed in BC, and quickly put back in after the hunter community convised them that it was balanced due to the drawbacks of hunter traps, this information is listed above in my 2 origional posts

the thing that doesnt make sence is that they insist on trying to remove it during expansions where CCing is 'useful', if its cause they think it ttrivializes the content they are wrong due to the the many drawbacks, which includes a chance to fail, even if hit/spell pen capped
I've been a little consumed brainstorming the specifics behind this..

Either multi-trapping;

-Trivialized a certain raid encounter

-Made five man heroics redundant

-Allowed too much freedom for solo play compaired to other classes

-Didn't want to have to design future encounters balanced around a hunter possibly using it's cc efficiently.

-PvP Doesn't have enough of an effect to matter at competetive levels

Since freezing traps' duration was increased to a full minute, every hunter spec has been able to keep two targets cc'd indefinately and relatively easily, (barring resists and accidental damage), if allowed the 30sec window.

Survival hunters talented have a 24sec cd on a 78sec long trap, allowing over the course of a minute of combat...to trap two extra targets, and keep them trapped indefinately with proper levels of awareness...barring the aforementioned resists, (higher than any other form of cc), and incidental damage. (Even up to a fourth trap is possible if given enough time, but it is highly difficult and not sustainable).

Basically there's a ramp up time to be able to do this...and it's been like this for years.

It is not something that can be macro'd like every other class, it's strickly in the hands of the player.

If used to it's fullest extent, it removes up to three adds temporarily from the equation over the course of a minute...That's seen in solo play.

For group play, this has been used more often than not as a way to protect your group from themselves...

..Those that would forget to re-apply thier cc; It would be trapped before it got to our healer.

..Healer lag/tank goes down? No problem, while the rest of the group runs away thinking it's a wipe...I'll be kiting & multi-trapping and pumping out the dps all the while.

..it would make me feel invovled, engaged...definately moreso than this last week has proven.

Even something as small as trapping the mages' poly, so he didn't have to interrupt his rotation to do so...cause that's what a hunter is to me. Granted lock & load procs didn't hurt ;) ...The way the survival tree seems to be designed told me this is simply what you do in a group.

...it's funny how many people still laugh at a sheep on ice though ;P
ill trap the mob we are killing if its the last 1 left for a free LnL, its fun to mess with the recounts CC breaker recount

XD

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