LFD and its crucial flaws.

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
So after the warrior nerfs I have started to spend a lot less time pvping and a lot more time gearing up my druid to start tanking raids with my guild. I spent the past few weeks spamming normal dungeons and progressively, heroics to gear myself up.

I have always enjoyed tanking more than any other role, as I have raided extensively as a healer, a tank, and both melee/ranged dps. I am not new to the issues that arise with pugs and I feel as if the system now a days is infinitely better than the old school vanilla/bc days where you had to spam chat channels endlessly and hope someone came along to fill your ranks before the group fell apart. (You think 45 minute dps queues are bad? lol)

That being said, I can't help but feel like the LFD feature restricts my abilities to be a good tank and group leader extensively and here is why...


As a tank I personally always like to take control of the group. The tank should be the leader an initiator in my opinion. Giving the group a sense of a direction is often the key mechanic missing in groups that seem to fall into the "wipefest" niche in the LFD. I like to take it upon myself (especially as a tank) to breifly explain most bosses and tricky pulls in a few quick sentences, mark all targets for CC and kill order, and explain my marks respectively.

I almost always check the *dungeon guide* option simply because it is a conscious queue to the players in my group that they should listen to the information I give them. Occasionally I will come across one bad apple who will ruin the run for the entire group by blatantly disregarding everything I say and sometimes flat out telling me that I am wrong. Now I am very open to criticism, I have always found being an open listener and learner gets you alot farther than being hard headed, but when I come across a terribad dps telling me why I am a bad tank because I didn't keep aggro on moon when it was supposed to be sheeped and the hunter aimed shot it, it can definitely get under my skin. Now as I said before and I am no stranger to bad players, bad dps, or even bad groups in general as I have been tanking for a long, long time. However, being that I feel most of the time I am in the position of a group leader, situations like this, really reveal the completely powerless position LFD creates for group leaders and tanks alike.

Pre LFD I almost always started all of my groups, that gave me the power to kick and rearrange as I saw fit, I would never kick people because they were not performing to a certain level of dps or because they didn't have super great gear, but only when the very essentials of playing their class and performing group functions were completely being ignored. LFD totally removed this sense of group leadership from the mix, while in many cases this is not entirely bad (prevents people from arbitrarily kicking) it also removes the group leader from any sort of accountability and power of "I've done this before, you haven't, what I say goes".


Now "bear" with me here.

Losing that sense of control and decision making, effectively removes much of the power that makes a decent group guide and leader a good leader in the first place, that is to identify a problem, and rectify it for the betterment of the group, outside of a personal agenda.

For example, the other day I queued a random heroic and instaqueued (tank ftw). I clicked the enter dungeon button and was ported to vortex pinnacle where I was greeted by the final trash pull before the last boss. The only problem was, that only two of my four other group members were even within my line of sight and were making no effort to get any closer.

Afks? was my immediate reaction so I waited about 15 seconds until I asked the mage (standing beside me) what the hold up was for. Much to my dismay this was the response I got...

"our last group we had a super super bad healer who kept letting everyone die. He kept blaming everyone else for being bad even though he wasn't healing and burned all the vote to kicks on a few of the dps. He finally left because we all wiped so many times from his terrible healing. But now the group is completely out of vote to kicks and the rogue hasn't been helping almost the whole instance, he just stays stealthed and far behind us and the hunter said he wasn't coming back."

Now BOTH of these two afk dps were still in group and did not drop. I had been placed in this unfortunate situation by the random LFD system. BUT I had no way to fix it, or even initiate a vote to kick because my previous terribad healer had burned through all the vote to kicks before I had gotten there. So were sitting there just staring at this pull waiting for the dps to afk out of the dungeon or atleast leave group...never happened. We eventually go so fed up with waiting that we had to just drop group because 3 manning heroic vortex pinnacle just wasn't in the cards.


My long winded point: give group leaders (ie: dungeon guides) more tools for effectively managing the groups.

This can be done in a number of easy fixes

1)give tanks an ultimate end all group leader position
2)provide the groups with more vote to kicks without the silly cooldowns and max kicks it has now
3)give the dungeon guide some sort of overide for situations like this
4)allow for an afk report feature similar to in pvp bg
5)possibly even unlimited group kicks with some sort of debuff that discouraged it from being abused or used in repeated sucession...not entirely sure what this would entail but I'm sure blizz could hire a team of people (using at the very least my subscription money from the last 5 years) to come up with something



on an unrelated note, you would think the LFD system could be intelligent enough to not gimp you into difficult heroics without atleast 1-2 CC classes and atleast 1-2 interrupt classes. And yes...it HAS happened to me before on multiple occasions. Not to mention groups that give you all melee or all ranged dps. Simply put in the necessary measures to prevent awful group make ups like two warriors, a dk, and a resto druid with almost no cc and no ranged dps. I realize this could potentially add alot of time to the already awful dps queues, but in the long run it will benefit everyone because groups will have a larger margin of success.

Thanks for your time and for reading my poorly organized post at 2am. Sticky and up vote if you agree.
The answer is Blizz doesn't care that you aren't happy.

They want you to carry derps, and exploiters, and to like it.

They want you to spend even more time in dungeons teaching ungrateful noobs how to play their own characters, and if you don't like that, they will penalize you for vote kicking or bailing from the group.
The answer is Blizz doesn't care that you aren't happy.

They want you to carry derps, and exploiters, and to like it.

They want you to spend even more time in dungeons teaching ungrateful noobs how to play their own characters, and if you don't like that, they will penalize you for vote kicking or bailing from the group.



I don't really feel like the outstanding issue here is that blizzard has a personal vendetta against my group consistency. Furthermore I don't feel like they don't take player happiness into account. Not to mention my happiness is entirely irrelevant to any of this. The bigger picture is the growing gap between good and bad players.


I think the real issue here is that there are far too many of the "ungrateful noobs" initiating the vote kicks and abusing the system...which is the only logical reason as to why blizzard would initiate such silly vote to kick rules in the first place.

As noted in my stated example.


That's why I propose a change to the system itself instead of just restricting it for everyone. Allowing for flexible control for the group leader position, a position that has become seemingly nonexistent in the 5 man setting. The only reason I ever learned how to play this game when I first started was from joining groups and listening to the tanks/guides, the ones who knew what they were doing and took it upon themselves to teach me. If i didn't want to listen that was fine, but I would be kicked and would have to find another group. That sense of leadership and important learning experience is dwindling further from where it needs to be the longer this system stays in place.

Perhaps even a system that places the dungeon guide (with improved powers) into the hands of the most qualified player...perhaps acheivement points or number of sucessfully completed runs...maybe even gearscore.
The answer is Blizz doesn't care that you aren't happy.

They want you to carry derps, and exploiters, and to like it.

They want you to spend even more time in dungeons teaching ungrateful noobs how to play their own characters, and if you don't like that, they will penalize you for vote kicking or bailing from the group.


Worse yet, there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive standard for when you can kick. I get a real idiot in the group and we can't kick for 4 hours... GM's say it's because he's been kicked too many times today already (maybe they've fixed that but I doubt it). That should be a clue...

Then if a person gets kicked because the l337 jerks (having to run pugs mind you) don't think they're geared enough, (they'd rather kick the tank with a 374 iLvl and wait who knows how long for a replacement so the iLvl 400 healer can keep checking facebook uninterrupted instead of actually healing) the tank gets stuck with a 30 minute CD. To get gear, you need to farm it and VP. To get gear and VP for moar gear, you need to run 5-mans. To do that, you need to run without getting kicked.
People make the assumption LFR is there for any reason besides free loot and resubs.
02/17/2011 11:00 PMPosted by Waybert
The answer is Blizz doesn't care that you aren't happy.


Some may view this as a troll comment but it actually is true. One of Blizzard's biggest problems is that they don't ask their customers what they want, they tell them what they want which is very bad business. There are a bunch of guys with high degrees in the design departments who say things like "we feel this is best" while the majority of the player base is saying "no!" I've paid very close attention to the things the company has said to the public. I remember once when customers were making suggestions and someone made a suggestion about totems back when Shamans had to drop each individually. They suggested something about making it so they can drop them all and Blizzard said "no, that's stupid" then turned right around, did the same thing, changed the name and took the credit.
04/01/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Blessyou
Seriously if you want that kind of control then start a 10 man group and do FL raid or something. Dungeon Guide is there for when people NEED or want information from someone who has done it before. Usually they will ask when they need help, otherwise I advise you to just dps/heal/tank. Dungeon Guide it IS NOT there for over zealous dictator control freaks. I am not saying thats what you are but that is what I thought when i read the post.


lol... this.

i agree though, that the kick feature is way too strict and doesn't seem to work well. Far too often we get someone being a d bag and we can't kick for a decent period of time.
03/31/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Greyhide
The answer is Blizz doesn't care that you aren't happy.


Some may view this as a troll comment but it actually is true. One of Blizzard's biggest problems is that they don't ask their customers what they want, they tell them what they want which is very bad business. There are a bunch of guys with high degrees in the design departments who say things like "we feel this is best" while the majority of the player base is saying "no!" I've paid very close attention to the things the company has said to the public. I remember once when customers were making suggestions and someone made a suggestion about totems back when Shamans had to drop each individually. They suggested something about making it so they can drop them all and Blizzard said "no, that's stupid" then turned right around, did the same thing, changed the name and took the credit.


Blizzard listens. They don't really do a whole bunch of what people suggest because most of the suggestions are moronic. The majority of the player base wants to favor their personal convenience over the good of the game or proper and fair treatment of the rest of the game's subscribers. Not only is it literally impossible for Blizzard to actually do what everybody wants, since most of the suggestions are incredibly selfish and mutually contradictory with the equally selfish suggestions of the other 10 million subscribers, but typically they have blazingly obviously destructive effects for the game.

On the rare occasions when the community makes a good point, Blizzard takes the time to talk it over internally (sometimes a whole lot of time, more than seems reasonable I admit) and then, if and only if they are persuaded, they implement features based on community feedback. Yes, they take credit for the things they implement. They are the ones who decide which suggestions are not crap, and then go to the effort of putting them in place and making them work right. Ideas are cheap. Work making them reality matters a lot more.

Games made by slavishly following community feedback usually suck. Professional game developers don't get paid the big bucks for nothing. They get paid for sorting through a billion ideas, to find a million ideas that sound good. Then sorting through a million ideas that sound good to find a thousand ideas that actually are good. Then sorting through a thousand ideas that are good, to find the dozen or so they can actually put in place in a reasonable time frame.
04/01/2012 10:58 AMPosted by Melkar
Seriously if you want that kind of control then start a 10 man group and do FL raid or something. Dungeon Guide is there for when people NEED or want information from someone who has done it before. Usually they will ask when they need help, otherwise I advise you to just dps/heal/tank. Dungeon Guide it IS NOT there for over zealous dictator control freaks. I am not saying thats what you are but that is what I thought when i read the post.


lol... this.

i agree though, that the kick feature is way too strict and doesn't seem to work well. Far too often we get someone being a d bag and we can't kick for a decent period of time.


I've thought that it would be nice to split the queue into two groups. One group gets heavily restricted or even completely forbidden vote kicks. The other gets unrestricted or at most very lightly restricted vote kicks. Let the player base decide whether they fear abusive vote kicks or annoying random teammates more.
Blizzard listens. They don't really do a whole bunch of what people suggest because most of the suggestions are moronic.


I didn't say they didn't listen. They do but what I stated was an example of taking the credit for someone else's idea. Sure, there are tons of stupid ideas people have but I listed one example where the company told the player their idea was stupid but turned around and implemented it, changing basically the name so it would officially be their idea.

The point I was making was that you read the majority of players wanting this change or this/that implemented, nothing game-breaking and it never happens or it happens 2 expansions later so it's now Blizzard's idea. But when you read the majority of players wanting the same legit thing but the company says "we feel you want this instead" then the players responding with "uh no...." Then once the community is vocal enough, someone catches on, implementes something and it wouldn't surprise me if his boss says to him "wow, what a great idea you came up with all by yourself! Here, have a raise!"

Games made by slavishly following community feedback usually suck. Professional game developers don't get paid the big bucks for nothing. They get paid for sorting through a billion ideas, to find a million ideas that sound good. Then sorting through a million ideas that sound good to find a thousand ideas that actually are good. Then sorting through a thousand ideas that are good, to find the dozen or so they can actually put in place in a reasonable time frame.


Nobody mentioned doing everything the community asks. That would be silly and the game would give quadruple or more experience, people would get the insane title overnight and we'd all be Cataclysmic Gladiators. Also, professional game developers are still gamers at heart. Their creations will be immortalized so plagiarism is more common than most will admit.
04/03/2012 01:58 AMPosted by Greyhide
Nobody mentioned doing everything the community asks


Just what the proverbial "I ask"

If you look back 3 years or however long, you'd see posts explaining exactly what LFD would do to A. This game, B. MMOs in general. C. Online communities, and many posts on the subject were accurate (Other MMOs have felt pressured to implement exact copies of LFD, and it has lowered the quality of play for further convenience)

Trust me, the subject was debated by both players and Blizzard before anything was ever implemented, and nothing is unforseen with any of the random matchmaking systems, everything that's ever happened was brought up in discussions.

Everyone's favorite comeback is "make your own group" And... It works sometimes, but too many people preferably use the LFD option (and since LFD doesn't let you play with your groups anymore, auto queing, and blocking outside invites) that option is gone and VP farming is forced with this system.

It's actually not bad to form a group as a tank or healer btw for LFD, but losing 15% to play with less-strange strangers is a bad trade off, and another thing that's kind of grown into the cess pool of random groups.
I think overall, LFD was a good idea just for the fact that I no longer have to stand in town and say "LF2M Healer and tank" find a healer and before the tank joins, the healer leaves for another group. Plus it sucked royally before. Doing heroic HoL for 2 months straight hoping the axe drops. It finally does and it gets ninja'd by a ret paladin who had titansteel destroyer.

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