Is Old Content going to be Redone every patch

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I won't bash on your development team or talk about how you've moved developers to other projects. Instead I will talk about what you have been doing with Cataclysm.

You have had less leveling zones and quests in Cata. Northrend had more quests and more zones (and no, the rehash of all the 1-60 leveling quests does not count as new content). This has a very large impact on both the leveling experience as well as the end game. While leveling I barely had to put in any time or effort to finish all the quests and content while leveling to max. The entire process was much easier and quicker than any other expansion. As for the end game, I'm tired of farming the same tiny area for herbs. Seriously Uldum and Whiptail? Shimmering Expanse and Azshara's Veil? These are tiny areas that I will be forced to farm endlessly for the next 2 years because your development team was lazy in implementing new content.

Beyond the leveling and world experience, there was a complete lack of interesting and new dungeons added in Cata. 7 new dungeons. That's it. 7. But I had to grind them all over and over because the only way to gear up for raids was to grind rep, and grind rep I did. The same 7 LONG and SLOW instances with almost no option for daily quests.

Finally the raid tier. This tier of content is a joke. Our guild raids 7.5 hours a week and started our first 25man raid on the 12th of January. That's 60 hours of raiding and we're working on heroic modes... And let me tell you, from all the research I've done, they are not something exciting to look for. No new mechanics, just bigger numbers and slight alterations to the fights. ULD came out 6 months after WotLK launched. We're already 5 months waiting and are being told we have even more to wait for... and what we are being told we are waiting for is all rehashed content. Rehashed versions of ZG, ZA and MC... Do you guys understand why everyone is upset? We're upset because you provided absolutely no PvE content this time around and the thing you are making us wait for is all rehashed versions of things that already exist.

Honestly I'm really disappointed in Cata. You guys have failed to deliver on all your promises and now we sit waiting... waiting for something interesting to do... and it's just simply not there... nor does it look like something new and interesting is in the works. Rag + legs just isn't going to cut it. Nor will ZA or ZG. So is that it? Are you going to continue to defend your artists and developers when they are literally abandoning the people that were here at the start of your game? Because that is what you guys are doing by refusing to provide us with actual new content.
My only comment and question is this:

You said that in the history of wow there has been very little rehashed content.

but are we really doing that math right? or are we making it a little fuzzy and going from launch, when there was really no content to rehash, instead of STARTING when you started rehashing content?

you can say, o hey! for the first four years we really didnt revamp anything! so that adds four more years worth of content to the overall average. it doesn't really change at all that since wrath hit we've seen a LOT of revamping.
03/10/2011 5:59 PMPosted by Deityofchaos
Nothing was redone in BC. So no.


That's because BC was the best ever!


You mean consistently over-tuned and nerfed, right?

:)
I love these posts. Because they show exactly who is ignorant and who takes the time to go to PTR and test content and educate themselves. ZG is not the same as it used to be. The only thing I really noticed that was the same was the name. And people complaining about raiding. It is more difficult and thus most people are not ready for new content in that area. Sorry for you if you rushed through and are sitting on your hands but that is your fault not Blizzards. I really don't see two dungeons being remade to progress the story, which you would understand if you paid attention, as a problem. But then again this is WoW and we QQ about everything as we throw our money at Blizzard and demand more to whine about.
When was the last time any of you actually ran ZG or ZA? I've been playing since vanilla and I have done ZG a ton of times. So do I get pissed when its reintroduced as a 5 man? No I don't. If the rest of the world has changed and evolved why wouldn't old content change and evolve? In WoTLK it made sense for Naxx to move (also as stated a lot of players missed this content) and after the shattering who is to say the troll bosses of ZG and ZA are the same.


Back on topic: I have no problem with the Devs freshening up old content, and in fact, I wish they'd refresh Kara ---lots of good memories in there.


This is exactly why old content refreshes can be nice and I think blizzard does a great job of not over using it.
03/10/2011 10:35 PMPosted by Poena
As for the end game, I'm tired of farming the same tiny area for herbs. Seriously Uldum and Whiptail? Shimmering Expanse and Azshara's Veil? These are tiny areas that I will be forced to farm endlessly for the next 2 years because your development team was lazy in implementing new content


And you didn't do this in any other expansion? I don't know about you but back in WOTLK the only real place to farm for Icethorn/Lichbloom was WG or Storm Peaks. In Cata the herbs are a bit more evened out, but the same applies, Tol Barad or Uldum for Whiptail. Twilight Jasmine go to Twilight Highlands. It hasn't changed and there's perhaps 1 less place your getting to farm herbs in then Wrath.. oooooo ...

03/10/2011 10:35 PMPosted by Poena
ULD came out 6 months after WotLK launched. We're already 5 months waiting and are being told we have even more to wait for... and what we are being told we are waiting for is all rehashed content. Rehashed versions of ZG, ZA and MC... Do you guys understand why everyone is upset? We're upset because you provided absolutely no PvE content this time around and the thing you are making us wait for is all rehashed versions of things that already exist.


1. Cata launched December 7th. It i now March 11th. That's little over 3 months bud (Been out for 5 months already my Hairy Dwarf Behind).
2. If the current projections are correct ZA/ZG should come out at the 4month mark, and then Firelands 5-6months mark. Hence exactly the same timeframe as Uld. So were not waiting any longer then we had to before.
3. Firelands is in NO WAY a rehashed version of MC, from what information has been gathered the ONLY boss returning from MC is Rag. You also obviously haven't looked at the Screenshots of Firelands, sure it's got lots of Lava like MC, but the design of the place is extremely different to MC.
4."No PVE content", i don't even know how you can say that without adding a "Just Kidding" beside it. 3 New raids, every single boss in those raids being new (Apart from Nef who was COMPLETELY different to any Nef/Ony fight in the past). Extremely enjoyable and challenging enough encounters with also challenging heroic counterparts for those looking for the extra step up. 7 new dungeons with 9 New heroics (DM and SFK only have 1-2 remade bosses so imo there great new dungeons). WOTLK had a copy and paste first tier raid and 12 new dungeons/heroics in which many were extremely boring because they had to make 3-5 extra dungeons they didn't put enough effort into them, and yet that doesn't get compared to in your rant?

If you think there not coming up with new Content, well then what's your suggestion?
Go read all the Blizzard Lore, then come and say what you think would be the next best "Fresh" content they could pump out. I doubt you could even think of 2-3 bosses to put in "New" dungeon and make it fit in with the story. I've read heaps of Blizzard Lore and i can't even think of what they could do next Apart from some kind of "Underwater Raid" and even then i could barely think of bosses that they could place in there. Many of us will continue to enjoy the content Blizzard is putting out and if you think there doing such a terrible job, then leave, I doubt anyone will give 2 hoots about someone who seems to have a passion for hating the game go.
Redoing some old stuff is good every once in awhile. The only problem would be if they took it too far. Imagine this: "Oh hey, we're going to update all the Molten Core raid mechanics to do level 85 appropriate damage, etc., but not change them at all. We're also going to make it a 25-man raid." That would be a problem.

Buut since they haven't done anything like that, I see no reason to worry. Really, the closest thing is Onyxia, and a single boss is hardly worth worrying about, especially because they redid the entire surrounding zone as well.

I mean, they probably redid ZG/ZA to be able to reintroduce the mounts associated with them because people liked them so much.
I won't bash on your development team or talk about how you've moved developers to other projects. Instead I will talk about what you have been doing with Cataclysm.

You have had less leveling zones and quests in Cata. Northrend had more quests and more zones (and no, the rehash of all the 1-60 leveling quests does not count as new content). This has a very large impact on both the leveling experience as well as the end game. While leveling I barely had to put in any time or effort to finish all the quests and content while leveling to max. The entire process was much easier and quicker than any other expansion. As for the end game, I'm tired of farming the same tiny area for herbs. Seriously Uldum and Whiptail? Shimmering Expanse and Azshara's Veil? These are tiny areas that I will be forced to farm endlessly for the next 2 years because your development team was lazy in implementing new content.


Areas to cover in 5 levels of Cataclysm:
Mount Hyjal
Shimmering Expanse
Deepholm
Uldum
Twilight Highlands
Tol Barad

Vs.

Areas to cover in 10 levels in Wrath of the Lich King:
Howling Fjord
Borean Tundra
Dragonblight
Zul'Drak
Sholazar Basin
Grizzly Hills
Storm Peaks
Icecrown
Crystalsong Forest
Wintergrasp
...and Crystalsong Forest doesn't really count.

Vs.

Areas covered in 10 levels in Burning Crusade:
Hellfire Penninsula
Zangarmarsh
Terokkar Forest
Nagrand
Blade's Edge Mountains
Netherstorm
Shadowmoon Valley

So the zone/level ratio is about 1:1 in both Cata and Wrath, both of which had more zones per level than Burning Crusade.

We only had to go up 5 levels in Cata, and we got about the same amount of zones per level as in Wrath. We got fewer total number of zones, but what do you expect for only 5 levels? 10 zones? 20?

For questing, just going by the achievements, Cataclysm zones had about 120 quests per zone on average. Wrath had about 100 on average. So we have more quests per zone in Cataclysm. It's a smaller total number of quests, but again, we're only going up 5 levels instead of 10. Btw, both Cata and Wrath have more quests per zone than Burning Crusade, where the average number of quests per zone is about 85-90.

In terms of size of the zone... you think the Shimmering Expanse and Uldum are tiny? Maybe it feels like that because there's so much variety in those zones that each area feels like a zone in itself. There is more variety and creativity on every zone released in Cataclysm than there was in Burning Crusade or Wrath.

Beyond the leveling and world experience, there was a complete lack of interesting and new dungeons added in Cata. 7 new dungeons. That's it. 7. But I had to grind them all over and over because the only way to gear up for raids was to grind rep, and grind rep I did. The same 7 LONG and SLOW instances with almost no option for daily quests.


Burning Crusade had 15 instances at launch:
Hellfire Ramparts
Blood Furnace
Slave Pens
Underbog
Mana Tombs
Auchenai Crypts
Sethekk Halls
Shadow Labrynth
Old Hillsbrad
Black Morass
Steamvault
Shattered Halls
Botanica
Mechanar
Arcatraz

About 1.5 instances per level.

Wrath had 12 at launch:
Utgarde Keep
The Nexus
Drak'Tharon Keep
Azjol-Nerub
Ahn-kahet: The Old Kingdom
The Violet Hold
Gundrak
Halls of Stone
Halls of Lightning
Utgarde Pinnacle
The Oculus
The Culling of Stratholme

About 1.2 instances per level.

As you point out, Cataclysm has 7:
Blackrock Caverns
Throne of the Tides
The Stonecore
Vortex Pinnacle
Halls of Origination
Lost City of the Tol'vir
Grim Batol

Over 5 levels, that's still 1.4 instances per level. While it's fewer total instances, it's more instances per level than Wrath, and just slightly less than BC.

Burning Crusade only added one instance throughout the entire two years of the expansion; Magister's Terrace. Wrath added 4; Trial of the Champion and the 3 Icecrown instances (which were the best in the expansion, imo). We had to wait until the end of BC to get MgT, and until 3.2 to get ToC. Now, we're getting ZG and ZA in 4.1.

Yeah, it doesn't feel good to get recycled zones, with scenery that we've seen for the last several years. And the addition of new boss mechanics only slightly mitigates that. I'm not too thrilled at the idea, but it doesn't mean that Blizz is "abandoning" the playerbase.


Finally the raid tier. This tier of content is a joke. Our guild raids 7.5 hours a week and started our first 25man raid on the 12th of January. That's 60 hours of raiding and we're working on heroic modes... And let me tell you, from all the research I've done, they are not something exciting to look for. No new mechanics, just bigger numbers and slight alterations to the fights. ULD came out 6 months after WotLK launched. We're already 5 months waiting and are being told we have even more to wait for... and what we are being told we are waiting for is all rehashed content. Rehashed versions of ZG, ZA and MC... Do you guys understand why everyone is upset? We're upset because you provided absolutely no PvE content this time around and the thing you are making us wait for is all rehashed versions of things that already exist.


The sound levels on Atremedes isn't a new mechanic? The Nefarian fight doesn't have any new mechanics? Having three different raid instances to go to instead of one (Naxx at Wrath launch) isn't enough PvE content for you? Here's where you really sound like a spoiled, entitled brat. Maybe you've run out of things to do, or maybe you're burned out, or maybe you're just losing interest in the game. But don't go trying to speak for everyone by saying "we're upset". "We" are not upset. *YOU* are upset, and that's fine. But if you're going to have a temper tantrum, at least try to keep things in perspective.

I'm not happy with the upcoming ZG and ZA revamps either, but there's no way to reasonably say that there is *no* new PvE content, or that the stuff we've gotten in Cata isn't at least on par with what we've gotten in BC and Wrath. Not to mention an entirely updated 1-60 experience which, while it may not matter to you personally, is a huge amount of content for a lot of other people. The developers at Blizzard deserve a lot more credit than what you're giving them in your whining rant.
The recycling is good for several reasons.
First of all, 0.000001% of the players do old content.
Second, new players get to experience "old content."
Third, old players get to re-experience old content with new challenges and rewards.


FINALLY I WOULD LIKE TO ADD. ---

PLEASE REVAMP KARAZHAN, MY FAVORITE INSTANCE OF ALL ****ing TIME.
I cannot tell you how many fun (and hilarious) experience I had in Kara.

Thanks babez.
On this topic, of WoTLK vs. Cata leveling content, I saw quite a few people do the 80-85 content in less than 24 hours at the start. I was pretty shocked seeing this, as it took 4-5 days in WoTLK for the hardcore players to get to 80. It was shocking because I had read beforehand that 80-85 would be the "same" as 70-80 because each cata level would really be like two WoTLK levels. It didn't work out that way.
I think I know what the problem is. Cataclysm only has 5 levels worth of pre-raid PvE content. To Blizzard's credit, even though we went up half as many levels as in WotLK and BC, we have a bit more than half of the content in terms of quests and 5 mans. But the problem is that a lot of players play for the same amount of time as they did in WotLK and BC. So slightly more than half of the content as before is being played over the same amount of time as before.

I think the problem is that a lot of players have gone through the content at the same pace as they always have, and now they've run out of things to do at a point that's sooner than in BC or WotLK. Unfortunately, there's a pretty vocal minority here on the forums of entitled crybabies who always want more, and nothing is ever good enough. So we're seeing the usual "Blizzard sucks and they're abandoning us. It's a slap in the face. /white hot rage", as though WoW is something more than a hobby, or that their exaggerated opinions actually matter.

Even though I'm not wild about recycled areas, I really hope the new ZG and ZA are good, and that the quests and everything surrounding them are well done. On the one hand, when recycled content is done well, we get Heroic Deadmines, which was a blast the first time I went through it. On the other hand, when recycled content isn't done well, we get Naxx 2.0, which was a pretty big let down. Level 80 Onyxia is a toss up for me, because it's virtually the same fight at 60, but I always loved it because I'm a sucker for awesome dragons.

TL;DR A lot of people have run out of things to do because there's about half as much high level pre-raid content. Whiners gonna whine. Crossing fingers @ ZG & ZA.
03/11/2011 1:48 AMPosted by Gelindia
On this topic, of WoTLK vs. Cata leveling content, I saw quite a few people do the 80-85 content in less than 24 hours at the start. I was pretty shocked seeing this, as it took 4-5 days in WoTLK for the hardcore players to get to 80. It was shocking because I had read beforehand that 80-85 would be the "same" as 70-80 because each cata level would really be like two WoTLK levels. It didn't work out that way.


Good point. A lot of people on my server blew through 80-85, too. I think the first 85 dinged at 6 hours after launch. The average for the hardcore people seemed to be about 12 hours. I think some of that had to do with 80-82 or so was just Blackrock Caverns and all the mobs that Raz would smash would give full XP. Speed running BRC was a really fast way to level up.
I really miss the mass CC coordination from ZG in vanilla for trash and panther boss. That was sooo fun.

I know this came out of no where but I was just reminiscing. :)
I really miss the mass CC coordination from ZG in vanilla for trash and panther boss. That was sooo fun.

I know this came out of no where but I was just reminiscing. :)


Green Whelp Armor on the panther boss was pretty funny. Sleeping panthers everywhere. Good times.
Naxx kinda fit with the whole Northrend/Lich King thing so I could see why they would put it in during WotLK. I can honestly say I don't know why they changed Onyxia...at least I got all the Onyxia backpacks I could need from her before hand. As far as ZA and ZG goes, well, they say that it's fitting for the story progression involving the trolls so the jury is still out on those.
03/11/2011 2:03 AMPosted by Livestock
Naxx kinda fit with the whole Northrend/Lich King thing so I could see why they would put it in during WotLK. I can honestly say I don't know why they changed Onyxia...at least I got all the Onyxia backpacks I could need from her before hand. As far as ZA and ZG goes, well, they say that it's fitting for the story progression involving the trolls so the jury is still out on those.


The idea of Naxx fit in well with Northrend, but the actual instance itself was pretty bad, especially compared to lvl 60 Naxx. I know it was supposed to serve as an entry point for raiding, but it missed the mark and encouraged poor play via mindless AoE tanking and DPS (which was kinda the theme of gameplay in WotLK). It was the first time Blizz tried to do something like that, though, so it was trial and error I suppose.

All this revamping on content (Naxx, Onyxia, ZG, ZA, Deadmines, SFK) and a few people asking for an updated Karazhan kinda makes me wonder if Blizz might not be better off doing a "Best of WoW" sort of expansion. Return all the best instances to exactly how they were, re-tune the numbers for whatever the max level is at the time but leave the mechanics the same, return to whatever the original raid limit was (40 mans, 20 mans, etc.) and let players have at it.

On second thought, that's too similar to a "classic" WoW server, and Blizz is pretty clear they're not going to do that. Still, nostalgia can be fun.
03/10/2011 1:28 PMPosted by Armageddøn
There definitely is not a hard and fast rule about updating existing content. If we feel revamping existing content makes sense in the current state of the game and lore -- and we think it will be fun -- sure, it's a possibility. You definitely shouldn't expect this every patch though. In the grand scheme of World of Warcraft's history, we've reintroduced very little existing content per patch and expansion.


So may I question what exactly was the reasoning to not put something involving our cute little Raptor pet from the questline in STV into Zul'Gurub? I miss that guy!


Yes!! I would like to know this as well! It was heart tearing to not be able to get her back!
03/11/2011 2:30 AMPosted by Mangea
Naxx kinda fit with the whole Northrend/Lich King thing so I could see why they would put it in during WotLK. I can honestly say I don't know why they changed Onyxia...at least I got all the Onyxia backpacks I could need from her before hand. As far as ZA and ZG goes, well, they say that it's fitting for the story progression involving the trolls so the jury is still out on those.


The idea of Naxx fit in well with Northrend, but the actual instance itself was pretty bad, especially compared to lvl 60 Naxx. I know it was supposed to serve as an entry point for raiding, but it missed the mark and encouraged poor play via mindless AoE tanking and DPS (which was kinda the theme of gameplay in WotLK). It was the first time Blizz tried to do something like that, though, so it was trial and error I suppose.

All this revamping on content (Naxx, Onyxia, ZG, ZA, Deadmines, SFK) and a few people asking for an updated Karazhan kinda makes me wonder if Blizz might not be better off doing a "Best of WoW" sort of expansion. Return all the best instances to exactly how they were, re-tune the numbers for whatever the max level is at the time but leave the mechanics the same, return to whatever the original raid limit was (40 mans, 20 mans, etc.) and let players have at it.

On second thought, that's too similar to a "classic" WoW server, and Blizz is pretty clear they're not going to do that. Still, nostalgia can be fun.


I would like to see something done with inverse Karazhan perhaps. I would not like to see Karazhan just beefed up to level 85 raid content. That place remains one of my favorite raids.

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