Official Camera Stutter, Part 2 (Mac)

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i didn't test 4.2 long enough to assess it really but it seemed a little better. but i'd have to have client open for longer then 20-30 min to really tell cause i'd need a fully stuffed cache that goes into endless recycling mode of purging/stuffing instead of just stuffing and not out of room yet.
Wow i never posted here? i thought i did. Anyway, this problem is fixed by 10.7. Like you won't ever see another stutter again, unless you just set your graphics options too high. But if you got a capable machine like me and diap, will finally be able to use the settings we were meant to all along on 10.7 :)
I'm surprised 10.7 fixes it. Does it even fix it for the 4.2.x client? Does that mean our speculation that it was a texture cache issue was wrong?

I REALLY hope the fix comes out for 10.6.x as well, as I don't expect to be updating to Lion anytime soon. I have a few deal-breaker PPC apps that I can't give up. Quicken 2007, and a couple for work. :(
well, texture c ache was never the issue, just improved upon it. Me and tiap have always said that with a bigger cache, it has to load less often, however that is/was NOT the issue,the issue is the fact that loading them craps on performance so much to begin with. that i suspect was a bug in apples end i have no doubt. But that doesn't mean wait for apple to fix it, when the client could at very least make it a lot less worse by having access to more texture memory.

that said, i think 10.7 did fix the bug. i'm sure blizz guys have been experimenting with various work arounds but in reality i'm pretty sure the issue has always been an opengl issue, signifcantly enhanced by a tiny cache (that ultimately results in wow needing to reload textures a lot)
The only downside is, Lion prohibits the user from interacting with their /users/accountname/Library folder, at least in the DPs. If that makes it live, I will not update to Lion. Ever. EVER.
although annoying, that's easy to work around.
06/21/2011 09:14 AMPosted by Omegal
although annoying, that's easy to work around.


That folder is just hidden. You can still interact with it by using Terminal. You can even unhide it if you want to:
http://www.se7ensins.com/forums/topic/428277-unhide-library-folder-in-mac-os-x-107-lion/

Just out of curiosity, what change in 10.7 got rid of it. I remember in the other thread some discussion of PAE, but I thought that was something the application had to change.

What makes the difference?
06/21/2011 09:14 AMPosted by Omegal
although annoying, that's easy to work around.


I shouldn't have to work around it... ;)

This better just be a "simple Finder" type setting in the OS somewhere or a whole crapton of users are gonna rage at Apple, and not in a good way.
What is this talk of "10.7" ^^^^ ... Seems like you guys have figured out how to fix the stutter issue with macs. Lemme know, would like to play WoW again...
buy lion, when it ships in about 2-4 weeks.
I'm not buying Lion until it ships via physical media. Recovery partition my ass. Been through enough Dells and even the old Performas that had those and they're worth jack.
I'm with Tia on this. There are too many negative changes in Lion to justify the few good changes/fixes.

Some of us CAN'T download 4GB of data.

Heck, I STILL buy and store DVD movies as opposed to streaming stuff. Sometimes, the physical media makes more sense.
unfortunately what apple says goes, one doesn't have a choice. if you refuse lion, you refuse apples support and end of live all driver and opengl support from apple. and eventually blizzard who has to follow apple's lead eventually. I honestly don't think blizz will ever fix stutter on 10.6, cause frankly OS X was majority of the problem. maybe in wow 5.0 when it's a 64 bit app and you can throw a giant texture cache at it to help with symptoms, but even that won't actually fix it. only 10.7 does.

as for phystical media, i'm on a 1M connection that DCs often. it takes me like 2 days to download lion. But you can make a boot disc with image so it's not like you can't create physical media. Burn it to a DVD or throw it on a USB thumb and it'll boot either way. just gotta download it once. Apple is retarded for forcing their app store this way though. i know mac users who are on dial up or have no internet AT ALL that get screwed by this. Apple is showing 0 consideration to anyone not living it up in a city with fast internet at their finger tips.

but without straying too far from topic at hand, if you want to fix the stutter, you'll need 10.7. I highly doubt anything blizzard does will truely fix it on 10.6.
It's not so much the time it takes as it is the fact I have a low monthly cap of 12GB. I did more on dial up than I do on satellite because of that cap.
After reading this thread, I think it might be useful to tell you guys how we load textures and cache them in memory.

WoW will load textures from disk as it needs them and deletes them when you leave a zone. Of course, this means that a massive amount of textures can be in memory. It could be over 750MB on ultra settings. All these textures are kept in system memory for that time.

Now the major problem is that most people only have 256MB of vram. So we need to make sure everything fits: textures, vertex/index buffers, shaders... If we go over, then the driver will waste a lot of time swapping memory. Another problem is that a lot of applications(including OSX) use OpenGL and vram, that's why closing other applications might help.

With 4.2.0, we currently aim to fill about 80% of the vram available on your system. We do not go higher because we need to account for fragmentation and other applications.
S4d1k,

Would you consider a power user CVAR that would let us specify how much we want to assign to VRAM for textures? There are a fair number of us with 1 GB cards out there that would likely benefit from the added padding.

Also, Omegal noted that Lion appears to have solved the stutter issue. Could you comment on what you think might have been the "fix" there (NDA restrictions apply if needed)?

Edit: And if netkas' findings are accurate and there really is generic "off the shelf" PC card driver support coming in Apple's builds, then the possibility of 4 GB cards begin to appear and that could really help things out.
yeah i can assure you there is 0 stutter on 10.7, in any zone that used to be very bad. lion handles itself way way better.
S4d1k,

Would you consider a power user CVAR that would let us specify how much we want to assign to VRAM for textures? There are a fair number of us with 1 GB cards out there that would likely benefit from the added padding.

Also, Omegal noted that Lion appears to have solved the stutter issue. Could you comment on what you think might have been the "fix" there (NDA restrictions apply if needed)?


I'd be interested in this type of ability too. I'm always eager to learn more about the inside process.

Edit: And if netkas' findings are accurate and there really is generic "off the shelf" PC card driver support coming in Apple's builds, then the possibility of 4 GB cards begin to appear and that could really help things out.


That would only go so far since only one Mac model HAS a swappable video card, and it's by far the least purchased Mac Apple sells. It'd be amazing for Mac Pro and Hackintosh users, but useless to the other 90% of Mac users.
06/23/2011 10:49 PMPosted by Stormtides
That would only go so far since only one Mac model HAS a swappable video card, and it's by far the least purchased Mac Apple sells. It'd be amazing for Mac Pro and Hackintosh users, but useless to the other 90% of Mac users.


Just as useless "to most" as would be my first suggestion, hence the "power user" part of it. iMacs are coming out with 1 GB VRAM configurations so we could really start using the ability to set the texture cache manually for optimization purposes.

Either way, even if all 4.2 does is allow 80% of VRAM for use, it's gonna hit that 2 GB wall a lot if any of that VRAM has to be reloaded.

I keep hoping beyond hope that a solution lies in 10.6, because Lion is just so god awful to deal with that I may just "live with it" and stay in 10.6.8 (once I nuke the App Store from its miserable existence). Yes, Lion is that bad. I honestly would prefer Windows Vista's launch version and its endless "do you really want to do this?" dialogue box spam to Lion. Seriously.
lol i remember vista. I had to go through 3 popups to delete a shortcut. It was a frigging shortcut! it was like :o

i dunno i'd say vista's hand holding was worse then lions.

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