Cloak & Dagger Compendium: Rogue Omnibus 4.3

Rogue
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So really there is an even exchange of stats. OK, this makes a lot more sense now. Thanks.
I do have to questions myself. Firstly, just curious as to why Formula: Enchant Boots - Assassin's Step is valued higher than +35 agility for both combat and sub?

Also, since i currently can't log in to change to my sub spec, just curious as if 2 pieces of the regular t12 set is going to be beneficial rather than just rolling with t13?
10agi is in my Sub gear worth 4.00EP=4AP, 10*4=40AP/14=2.9DPS in current gear levels we have avg DPS numbers ranging from 45-55k. 2.9DPS over a six minute encounter is 10440 more damage. 1 second of lost up-time from moving to, from, and/or, back to a target can cost you anywhere from 30-40K more damage than that 10agi can provide you the entire encounter. That's just 1 lost second. Every time you move, there's potential for more, or greater loss.

Having said that, Zon'ozz and Yor'sahj both have native speed boosts in there areas, and Ultraxion is not a fight with any movement. For the most part this particular tier movement doesn't play huge roles in the encounters in such a way that you're as at risk or up-time loss as in past tiers of content. But the potential still exists.

I personally went with Major Agi and use Sprint/ShS to guard myself against potential loss, but there's no guarantee of having either always available, so the risk is still present - if mitigated some. And Combat has Sprint on Restless Blades. So you can mitigate the potential for loss, if you're aware of it. But as a general rule, for any spec that doesn't naturally have a speed boost (Assassination and Quickening) I always recommend using a boot enchant with a speed boost on it. Then changing it up from that situationally.
Thank you kindly, CM(s).
04/15/2011 11:49 PMPosted by Caera
Revealing Strike only at 4CP, if Glyph of Sinister Strike procs you to 5CP, skip RvS and use your highest priority finisher
I don't understand why you would wait to use RvS last instead of first. I always use RvS first, as I used to do it last. I feel like it works more with the SS proc as you would always have RvS there and you wont be wasting CP. Anyone care to explain why you would use RvS first? Thanks in advance, always open to ideas.
Using RvS at 4CP is the only time it won't waste CP.

Ex.

RvS (1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(?CP) > Eviscerate

RvS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(?CP) > Eviscerate

SS(1CP) > RvS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(?CP) > Eviscerate

SS(2CP) > SS(1CP) > RvS(1CP) > SS(?CP) > Eviscerate

SS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > Eviscerate

SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(1CP) > RvS(1CP) > Eviscerate

SS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > RvS(1CP) > Eviscerate

Using RvS any time before 4CP means that you could put yourself in a position where SS Glyph procs make the last SS potentially waste a CP. The reason it is used at expressly 4CP is that it is guaranteed to produce only 1CP. If SS Glyph makes you skip 4PC and go straight to 5, you also skip RvS. But if it lands you on 4CP, you can RvS safely knowing you cannot waste any CP.

I'm somewhat confused how you think using RvS first wastes less CP.
Using RvS at 4CP is the only time it won't waste CP

Maybe I was trying to talk about time instead of combo points. Its just if you RvS first, you would have the buff and you would just get 4 CP after that - then finisher. Lets say this happens
SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(2CP) > = 5 CP with no RvS but with RvS at the start would equal.
RvS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(2CP) = 5 CP (One extra/wasted) but you would have the RvS up. I understand your point of wasting CP but the fact that a RvS first will give you the buff + a CP is wroth it because you would be wasting a CP with the RVS at the end or a chance to get the buff. My theroy is that I would rather waste a CP and get RvS, then to waste a CP and not have RvS.
05/14/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Panzerstein
My theroy is that I would rather waste a CP and get RvS, then to waste a CP and not have RvS.
But your theory is wrong. RvS does less base damage than a SS. So part of that buff is going just simply into making up for its innate weakness. That coupled with the wasted time and/or CP makes it cost more than you're gaining. The time and CP are what's important. Not the RvS buff. Every 5CP Eviscerate is 10 more seconds off your cooldowns. Every time you use RvS first you waste potential GCDs you didn't have to spend and CP you can't generate.

SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(2CP) is much better than RvS(1CP) > SS(1CP) > SS(2CP) > SS(?CP) you can push out a full 5CP Eviscerate after only 3 GCDs, instead of 4. Leaving RvS to the end allows you to account for SS Glyph procs, using it first puts you at their mercy.

RvS is something you get extra when procs allow it (which is really a good chunk of the time). That's how you need to think of it. Not something that absolutely must be active for every finisher.
Oh ok that makes a lot more sense, thanks a bundle. I'll compare my dps with this in my next DS raid just to see the improvement :) Sorry about being a little stubborn with all this xD
Sorry to butt in, buuuut...

05/14/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Panzerstein
I'll compare my dps with this in my next DS raid just to see the improvement

It's really unlikely you'll notice a difference, Panzer. Everything Caera has said is correct (psh! as if it could ever be otherwise), but using RvS only at 4CPs as opposed to using it earlier will net you, at best, a DPS gain of ~200. That's far too small a difference for you to be able to notice it by checking your WoL parse or Recount/Skada numbers, since it's well within the amount of DPS that you can gain or lose through gear changes, simple mistakes in your rotation, dumb luck and so forth.

The RvS-at-4 recommendation was reached almost entirely through theorycrafting, not through analyzing logs or beating on target dummies. I just wanna guard against the possibility that you might see a drop in DPS on your next Ultraxion fight and point your Accusatory Finger of Doom at the change in your RvS approach.
05/14/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Rfeann
That's far too small a difference for you to be able to notice it by checking your WoL parse or Recount/Skada numbers, since it's well within the amount of DPS that you can gain or lose through gear changes, simple mistakes in your rotation, dumb luck and so forth.
Yeah honestly, I was thinking the same thing but I just wanted to put in my 2 cents but hell why not, spice it up a little bit so raid isn't a snore fest for me. (Dragon soul if very bland despite how many times you've ran it.
Great Info. Thanks Caera <3
I have a question about reforge. How do you feel about Mr.robot and other websites that "Optimize" your gear. I don't agree with most of them and I feel like my reforge has all the stats I need. I might just be saying this just because I spent all the time in reforge and now a website is telling me its all wrong. So much would you rate Mr.robot and such as good sources for reforge?
Mr. Robot? Well, my feelings on that one are pretty in-depth and have been documented a few times around here as such. My personal feeling toward that, without going into too much re-tread detail, is that it is one of the worst resources to come around in the raiding community in recent memory. Worse than Noxxic, if only for how wide-spread it is.

As a rogue there's no question you should be using http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ it's tuned specifically for us, it uses dynamic EP values tailored to us, and it was created by the best of the rogue theory-crafting community. Which, I may be biased, is one of if not the best among such collectives.

As a backup, or when I'm working with non-rogue characters I use wowreforge.com it's not bad even with the default stat weights, although I usually simulationcraft out better ones.

I've said before, and it bears repeating. No such program is infallible. It is absolutely critical that you know why it's doing what it's doing. You don't need to know how. But understanding the relation of the stats and why it's prioritizing what it is will give you a foundation to identify those times when it is doing something a little dodgy.

I honestly wouldn't recommend doing reforges by hand, if only for the amount of time it requires to get it right. In T11 I certainly did do it myself. Once Shadowcraft became more finalized I started doing both. Working by hand and then seeing the optimized setup SC suggested. Both as a fun mathematical exercise, and because I wasn't yet ready to fully commit to the fledgling SC. Usually I was within 50DPS of SC, if not dead on. But it took vastly considerable more time.

It's also the most precise way to go, using Shadowcraft. I am confident in saying I have a good handle on how to work out the reforges on my own, and I may have had good accuracy, but SC had better precision (reaching an accurate result with highest consistency). Couple that with efficiency, there's no real argument for not using it.

Especially when you pair it with reforgerade: http://www.curse.com/addons/wow/reforgerade copy your reforge summary in SC, paste into reforgerade's window in game, click one button and you're fully reforged and there's no chance for human error. Best system, hands down.
Oh wow! I never knew about the reforge add-on! That makes my life so much easier! I use shadowcraft for about everything but I never knew about the copy and paste + the add-on. My reforge wasn't too bad I guess, off by 493 dps which isn't something to party over but no doubt this will help me in the future! Thanks a bundle! :D Edit: However, shadowcraft did make me spell capped which is odd for combat but oh well
07/05/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Panzerstein
However, shadowcraft did make me spell capped which is odd for combat but oh well

Not really. As you can see in this table Combat doesn't have a single cap value for Hit Rating like the other two specs. Instead it has a minimum value and a maximum value that you're going to float between getting closer to the ceiling as you get better gear. Eventually, around T13 gear levels, you just become spell capped as you just have more Hit Rating than can feasibly be reforged into Haste.

0-----------------------8----------------------------17--------------------27
[------yellow hit-------]
[-------------------spell hit-------------------------]
[------------------------------------white hit------------------------------]
------------------------[ Ideal range for Combat ]
----------------------------------------------------[](Assassination Hit Cap)
------------------------[](Subtlety Hit Cap)
Oh ok, thanks for all the help! :D Your guide + you explaining things has made things a lot clearer for getting the most dps out of my rogue. This guide is in my favorites, its my go-to guide when ever I'm confused lol
Thank you kindly. Always glad to help out.

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