Ask The Devs #6: Guild Advancement (Answers)

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04/27/2011 10:20 AMPosted by Kaivax
But because of reputation, even brand new guilds may seem like a more serious option than they were before Cataclysm, since the founders of the guild know that anyone interested is likely looking for a long-term home and are not just hopping from guild to guild.


Only problem is that not that many people are into rep grinding. Especially not grinding a rep that is as long a grind, and I mean grind, as guild rep is. So for most people guild rep isn't going to be that big an incentive to stay.

I think a better way of working the perk system would be if they were better tied in with your reputation level. Like if, just for the sake of an example, Have Group, Will Travel required Guild Level 21 as well as guild standing of Revered. It would actually help to make the perks more meaningful, and result in less people looking for a guild that has the specific perks they want, rather than the sort of guild they need.

Also I want the five minutes I spent reading the roundabout "replies" to the questions asked back please.
Oh. I guess they're not answering follow-up questions on this. :P
04/28/2011 06:58 AMPosted by Reiterei
Oh. I guess they're not answering follow-up questions on this. :P


Why should they bother answering follow up questions if they didn't even answer the original questions. And the questions that they chose to "answer" are really some of the easiest questions to give round-about answers on.

Alot of people dislike aspects of guild advancement, rep, guild experience, perks, etc. But all the answers Blizz gave was simply "tough luck." Why let people ask questions at all if you're gonna just skip out on at least acknowledging that people are not satisfied and are getting taken advantage of by the current system.


Yes, I agree. The way they designed the system is very poor, no argument here.

Rewards should be based purely on "personal guild rep", which should come and go with you if you decide to change guilds. Earning "personal guild rep" should be based purely on doing things with guild members.

This leaves the rep purely with you, but gives you the incentive to work with your current guildmates.

I mean, it's not that complicated to design a proper system that isn't subject to such abuse, and kills off a bunch of niche guilds in favour of impersonal zerg guilds.

Oh well. :(
Everytime I would meet some people who are outside of my guild, and we have fun together, I would generally ask them if they would like to join my/our guild.

Every single one of them has asked what level guild we are, and upon hearing we are lvl 2 or 3, their responses are always "Sorry man, I'm in a lvl 8 guild and half-way through Honored"
"No thanks, this guild is lvl 10 lol"
"I would, but we are about to get <Insert High LVL Perk name> and you won't have it."

In short, every person who we want/asked in(to) our guild has politely declined due to
(a.) our low guild level/lack of perks,
(b.) their (much) higher guild level/amount of perks, or
(c.) a combination of both.

It was clearly conveyed that if these "barriers" did not exist, or were not as "needed", that these said guild invites would have succeeded. They are now all on my friends list, and we still get together on occasions. But I know if these invites had went through as they would have before the guild system, we would have a full raid group of steady individuals who enjoy the same things. Raid if we can, pvp for the most part, and do tons of old world content/achievements.

Anyone else who has joined left for larger guilds.

Just my experiences, take what you want from it.
Q: The guild perks system makes it unnaturally hard to start a new guild, since a guild without all perks is at an obvious disadvantage in recruitment. In addition, it rewards just recruiting random people (who might only care about the perks) to get guild XP. What are your thoughts on this? Will it be addressed? – Lolisa [Europe, English], Mith [North America]

A: We knew when we decided to add guild features for Cataclysm that this was one of the risks. If the guild perks and rewards aren't interesting, then there is no motivation to join a guild or work to improve your guild. On the other hand if they are too powerful, then you feel shackled to your old guild, even if it's not a healthy relationship for you. We were careful to only choose perks that didn't contribute to player power, and we let you keep any rewards you earn if you ever have to leave your guild. The perks are nice, no doubt, but you're going to have less fun in an established guild of jerks than you would starting your own guild with fewer perks.

We don't think recruiting random people is healthy for a guild. Rewards are never going to be a substitute for strong social ties. We really encourage as many people as possible to seek out guilds (and we hope the new Guild Finder will help with that), but joining a guild at random will likely end in tears.

On the other hand, there may be some benefit to having less churn on starting guilds. Before Cataclysm, some guilds would get started halfheartedly and then crumble again after a few weeks or months. Maintaining an active guild asks a lot of the guild master and leading officers. If you join an established guild in Cataclysm, hopefully it will continue to be around for awhile. But because of reputation, even brand new guilds may seem like a more serious option than they were before Cataclysm, since the founders of the guild know that anyone interested is likely looking for a long-term home and are not just hopping from guild to guild.


I think that the answer here (of which there isn't really one) is not really thought out. Blizzard should know by now that when you give people advantages for doing X, a number of people will do X even if they don't necessarily like it. This also does not remotely address the problem of people trying to start new guilds and not getting people (good or bad) because they'd rather join a guild with more perks or stay in a guild that they don't necessarily like but still are okay with because of the perks rather than joining a newer guild with people they might like.

I can understand the intent with the guild perk system, and think that in general it's a good idea. I just think that the perks that affect characters on an individual level are powerful enough to convince people that they should stay in a guild where they might not be overly happy rather than try to find a place where they are happier. Ultimately it will reach the point where the person doesn't think the perks are worth staying and they'll leave anyway, that would be true no matter how good or bad they were. I just think that the threshold is a bit to high with the current ones. And by doing it the way they did, I think Blizzard has written themselves into a hole because any thought of removing or changing those would make people really unhappy.
In response to a lot of people: I have this to say. A small guild can level just fine. My guild has less than 30 members, and we are level 17--we just happened to have been around just before Cata. The thing is this though, having been even smaller than we are now, you have to keep in mind that EVERYONE has to work towards guild cap if you want to level a small guild. If people contribute towards your guild EXP, your guild will level eventually. Just be a cool guild, and cherish the few very good dedicated and solid members that you get. You still have plenty of time before Cata ends to reach cap, and even then, cap isn't going to make a bad guild good, only a good guild better. Just enjoy your guild and the people in it, as people have done (the main reason we have guilds) since vanilla. Levels will come if people are dedicated to making your guild more awesome.

Just some thoughts from the GM of a small guild.


Sounds good when your 70+. However you have to consider the extreme opposite... my guild is a small guild were no one is over level 50 because higher levelers quit to join larger and higher ranked guilds. We have less then 25 member. It is difficult to recruit new players to help guild grow because were dwadling at level 2. Most of the guild member are casual players so as a result Guild Challenges are a joke especially when its hard to even have three guildies online at the same time or who are in the same level range to run together. Then with questing...our low level efforts do nothing in advancing guild...So why stay in a small guild esp if you dont have a level 70+ to boost you up??? Thats the real pains of a small guild.
Current system favors higher leveled players. Ideally in a guild i believe the xp should be even so that everyone whether 70+ or not feel like the are actively contributing to guilds growth. Thats my gripe with this system and its not being addressed. Guild Challenges my a**.

My perspective from the GM of a small guild...soon to be renamed "DOOMED FROM THE START"

*on one of my alts*
What I got out of this.

Big mass recruit guilds will continue to reap the perks.

Small family/friends guilds will still reach level cap shortly before the next xpac.
Q: Are you planning to address the issue of Guild Leaders mass kicking members, once the guild reaches level 25? – Bloodbliss [North America], Юхани [Europe, Russian]

    A: We don't really have any interest in controlling who a guild leader chooses to kick, or when. Guilds are fairly transparent and simple player-run groups, and we have to be extremely careful about what systems we implement that impact how people can operate their guilds. We could absolutely make it more difficult for guild leaders to kick their members, and that might help very slightly with these situations, but the result would actually be that guild leaders would just be much less likely to invite new members. We want people to be in guilds, as opposed to making guild masters afraid that if they invite someone they may never be able to kick them if they don't work out.

    Allowing players to keep some level of guild reputation is an option we can look into to help with this situation, though.



This is not a problem that I have to deal with - I'm in a "casual" guild with a decent number of members, and though we're not even close to being a big guild, we are at level 15. Personally, I can't understand people joining guilds just for the perks, since I'd rather be in a guild with people that I enjoy spending time with, but whatever.

Nevertheless, as far as this "problem" goes, I had these thoughts:

If a guild member is removed from the guild by the GM or Officer (or whomever has kicking authority) all guild XP contributed by that member is removed from the guild, perhaps even causing the guild to lose levels. Is a guild member voluntarily leaves a guild by using /gquit, then any guild XP that member contributed remains intact.

This would pretty much do away with the "kick abuse" that apparently goes on currently, as it would result in a large loss of guild XP, however, would not be particularly detrimental to a guild who doesn't kick its members routinely, since the occasional loss of guild XP due to kicking a member every once in a great while would not really have a significant effect.

And certainly something should be done for the kicked member as far as what sort of rep the individual gets to carry to their next guild, but I'm not sure what that should be.

I can't really think of a downside to this type of implementation, unless it's extremely difficult to program it.
I joined what resulted in my current guild in response to a guild spam. We had a policy of player spotting (watch questers interact with others and handle themselves) to see if they had the qualities of competence, fairness, and generosity of spirit that we were looking for and this led to a solid backbone of guild members.

Guilds are like clothing. You may have to find a tailor. You may be satisfied with something off the rack. You may go nude. Do not be afraid to shuffle about, but leave the bank alone if you are browsing.
Its interesting to listen to the people whining about "fairness" for smaller guilds competing with larger guilds. But what about guilds that put in the hard work to get to lvl 25? Its not fair for them that some lame upstart guild gets an advantage even though they never put in the effort.
Honestly, I dont really care THAT much for guild perks. They're nice, but not totally needed. What I care about is if the members are active, if we can actually pull off a raid, and if I like the people in a guild. I would rather join a lvl 5 guild that had good raid progression, solid members, and a nice community than a lvl 25 guild that has no progression and filled with jerks.
lol so many people here crack me up, I had my "bank" guild that was myself and 2 friends, with 2 low lvl toons each. I personally have had no issue getting that guild up to level 5, yes its been months since cata, but they are just alts that I play here and there, I went from lvl 8-85 on em, and the 3 of us run instances etc, rep isn't hard to get the daily cap is huge, but sorry sitting in cities and trolling trade doesn't get you rep, doing quests and achievements does.

and I don't know what guilds you guys have been part of, but if you joined a guild and were kicked out at lvl 25, you had to have some sort of sign that was going to happen. That or you are just very naive and I have no pity on you.
If a guild member is removed from the guild by the GM or Officer (or whomever has kicking authority) all guild XP contributed by that member is removed from the guild, perhaps even causing the guild to lose levels. Is a guild member voluntarily leaves a guild by using /gquit, then any guild XP that member contributed remains intact.


You may be right that this would solve some of the kick abuse, but imagine this. What if your the guild leader and theres a guy who's a total jerk and putting down all your members, but the guy is still doing his dailies and runs and gaining a lot of XP for your guild. Now, would you want to possibly lose a guild level just because you did the right thing and kicked a jerk from your guild? I don't think so.
Everytime I would meet some people who are outside of my guild, and we have fun together, I would generally ask them if they would like to join my/our guild.

Every single one of them has asked what level guild we are, and upon hearing we are lvl 2 or 3, their responses are always "Sorry man, I'm in a lvl 8 guild and half-way through Honored"
"No thanks, this guild is lvl 10 lol"
"I would, but we are about to get <Insert High LVL Perk name> and you won't have it."

In short, every person who we want/asked in(to) our guild has politely declined due to
(a.) our low guild level/lack of perks,
(b.) their (much) higher guild level/amount of perks, or
(c.) a combination of both.

It was clearly conveyed that if these "barriers" did not exist, or were not as "needed", that these said guild invites would have succeeded. They are now all on my friends list, and we still get together on occasions. But I know if these invites had went through as they would have before the guild system, we would have a full raid group of steady individuals who enjoy the same things. Raid if we can, pvp for the most part, and do tons of old world content/achievements.

Anyone else who has joined left for larger guilds.

Just my experiences, take what you want from it.


if people you are looking to recruit are only interested in perks, those are the people you don't want! they aren't going to work on progression with your guild, they just want stuff handed to them.

the people that join because you have a good core of people are the ones you want to keep, the ones who will put forth effort to help the guild.

I don't understand why people don't acknowledge this, plenty of lvl 25 raiding guilds have the issue of "beggers" people who apply and fluff up apps, just to join the guild and demand hand outs, or avoid raids that aren't on farm. the guild perks help and hurt all guilds so in other words its a balanced system.

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