[PvE] Frost Mage Guide - 4.1

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Why is this not stickied? D:
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Guess we just have to keep bumping. Great guide
After having sat on the dummy in UC on the PTR with my mage decked out in full T12, I just wanted to let you guys know how frost was doing.

So the premade I have has 12.39% haste, 17.02% hit, 25.01% crit (with Molten Armor up) and 6.96 mastery. These stats will probably be changing as I was mostly reforging (out of habit) for Crit and Hit. Of course I'd be dropping crit if I were raiding, and heck, I got to hit cap using two +int trinkets (So looking forward to that on live). Anyways, just want to report about how the rotation is "changing" with the 4P.

Brain Freeze is up. A lot. It procs more often than Finger of Frost. I found myself rarely using Ice Lance to consume FoF charges. Ice Lance ended up being 5.8% of my damage done. FFB, however, ended up being 20.4% of my damage done, half the time I'd be holding the charge waiting for a FoF proc (because I used my last FoF proc on BF) and I would get another BF proc, wasting it. It was proccing that much. Deep Freeze was 12.3% of my damage. Frostbolt was still #1 with 38.5%. The 2p Mirror Image proc was 2.8% of my damage.

Now it may just be that I'm not getting the crit raid buffs, but when I reforged to a stat set of 10.96% haste, 17.03% hit, 23.11% crit (with Molten Armor), and 10.22 Mastery, I did about 2k less DPS. After looking at the first set of numbers, I thought, "Hey! Mastery is probably really good with all those BF FFBs I'm getting!" Those FFB were only critting for about 3k more, but I was getting less procs (not much less, but less) and firing off less Frostbolts in the same time.

My best DPS seemed to be when I had a healthy balance between haste on mastery (my first set of stats). I was averaging 19.5k dps on the dummies with that setup. I was making a lot of mistakes too, just not being used to that many BF procs, plus not having my addons that help with CD management. I'm really liking where Frost is headed for 4.2!
this won't get stickied because it's not 100% correct.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/813785-Kuni-s-Frost-Mage-PVE-Guide
this won't get stickied because it's not 100% correct.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/813785-Kuni-s-Frost-Mage-PVE-Guide


Mind elaborating a bit so we don't have to bring up both guides side-by-side and compare them section by section to try to find the differences?

Edit: To Steehl: That sounds like with 4p T12 burning FFB as soon as you get it to avoid overwriting it will be the best choice. Did you attempt a rotation where you did that, by chance?
After having sat on the dummy in UC on the PTR with my mage decked out in full T12, I just wanted to let you guys know how frost was doing.

So the premade I have has 12.39% haste, 17.02% hit, 25.01% crit (with Molten Armor up) and 6.96 mastery. These stats will probably be changing as I was mostly reforging (out of habit) for Crit and Hit. Of course I'd be dropping crit if I were raiding, and heck, I got to hit cap using two +int trinkets (So looking forward to that on live). Anyways, just want to report about how the rotation is "changing" with the 4P.

Brain Freeze is up. A lot. It procs more often than Finger of Frost. I found myself rarely using Ice Lance to consume FoF charges. Ice Lance ended up being 5.8% of my damage done. FFB, however, ended up being 20.4% of my damage done, half the time I'd be holding the charge waiting for a FoF proc (because I used my last FoF proc on BF) and I would get another BF proc, wasting it. It was proccing that much. Deep Freeze was 12.3% of my damage. Frostbolt was still #1 with 38.5%. The 2p Mirror Image proc was 2.8% of my damage.

Now it may just be that I'm not getting the crit raid buffs, but when I reforged to a stat set of 10.96% haste, 17.03% hit, 23.11% crit (with Molten Armor), and 10.22 Mastery, I did about 2k less DPS. After looking at the first set of numbers, I thought, "Hey! Mastery is probably really good with all those BF FFBs I'm getting!" Those FFB were only critting for about 3k more, but I was getting less procs (not much less, but less) and firing off less Frostbolts in the same time.

My best DPS seemed to be when I had a healthy balance between haste on mastery (my first set of stats). I was averaging 19.5k dps on the dummies with that setup. I was making a lot of mistakes too, just not being used to that many BF procs, plus not having my addons that help with CD management. I'm really liking where Frost is headed for 4.2!


That's exactly what i expected to happen. Based on that steehl, i have two questions for you:

  • Would you say that they should increase the maximum amount of charges on BF to 2?


  • I know it's only the 4 piece, but if it's proccing more than FoF, there's a lot of wasted charges there.

  • What are your thoughts on Ice Lance?


  • Again, exclusive to the 4 piece but it sounds like Ice Lance is going to be pretty useless with the 4 piece (compared to pre-4 piece)

    I would say that those two questions above aren't an issue if the 4 piece is as hard to get as it was this tier. (just my experience, but i still don't have it) But if they are easy to get, it would pose as an interesting topic. Of course this is assuming the rotation priorities are different with the 4 piece.

    And yeah, overall i'd say that the dummy is relatively inconclusive because it will be extremely easy to get crit capped in raid buffs which will change a lot of those stats, but i am curious to see if haste is better than mastery or vice versa in firelands.

    this won't get stickied because it's not 100% correct.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/813785-Kuni-s-Frost-Mage-PVE-Guide


    I'm already seeing an issue in the beginning of the post. A PvE build should never have permafrost up. He makes the point that it will help heal your water elemental. I say this with complete seriousness and no exaggeration; My water elemental has never died from AoE effects in raids, and it is never targeted by single target ones (that's not RNG either, it just isn't targeted because it's a pet). Permafrost is literally a pointless talent to put up (unless you are the one kiting all the adds in every fight and are having issues)
    I've been leveling my mage as frost and she's almost 85. I'm really liking the playstyle and the control. So what I'm wondering is how big a disparity is there in DPS between specs? I realize that stateofdps and WoL and such aren't exactly great barometers since the number of samples is so low.

    So on a personal experience issue, how close/far apart is the DPS?

    Thanks
    I've been leveling my mage as frost and she's almost 85. I'm really liking the playstyle and the control. So what I'm wondering is how big a disparity is there in DPS between specs? I realize that stateofdps and WoL and such aren't exactly great barometers since the number of samples is so low.

    So on a personal experience issue, how close/far apart is the DPS?

    Thanks


    From my personal experience, the disparity isn't that big at all. Maybe 8% at worst (between frost and arcane). Single target between fire and frost, frost should win if you are doing the rotation/timing correctly. In terms of AoE, frost is definitely the loser by a mile though. AE with 4 stack is actually really good.

    It might also be kind of skewed (with my personal experience) because i have been playing frost since launch and know it almost perfectly, whereas the other two i am good at, but no where near my level with frost.

    [b]Crit until soft cap (33%)


    Although, once you get the tier 11 4 piece (which reduces the cast time of frostbolt by 10%), Mastery seems to pass haste on most occasions. Haste is mainly only good for frost mages because of frostbolt. It's decent damage and procs the rest of our spells. So the faster it is cast, the more procs you get. Once this 10% haste is added to it, the value of it decreases considerably.


    This is what is wrong.

    getting 33% ice lance cap'd with 2pc tier 11 and then going haste/mastery is a dps increase versus getting a flat 33% crit for DF/FFB.

    Mastery is never better than haste. Ever. You should easily have 200+ or more haste before mastery starts to become better than haste, even with 4pct11. Frostbolt is by far your most damaging spell in raids; haste increases that.

    And there's nothing wrong with putting one point in permafrost; I've had my elemental die sometimes. It is rare, but it's not a "problem" with his guide. It's personal preference.

    Fix your guide and get stickied......
    This is what is wrong.

    getting 33% ice lance cap'd with 2pc tier 11 and then going haste/mastery is a dps increase versus getting a flat 33% crit for DF/FFB.

    Mastery is never better than haste. Ever. You should easily have 200+ or more haste before mastery starts to become better than haste, even with 4pct11. Frostbolt is by far your most damaging spell in raids; haste increases that.

    And there's nothing wrong with putting one point in permafrost; I've had my elemental die sometimes. It is rare, but it's not a "problem" with his guide. It's personal preference.

    Fix your guide and get stickied......


    I'll have to run the numbers regarding that because it doesn't make sense.

    DF and FFB are more damage combined than Ice Lance is, so why would crit be worse than haste/mastery after t11 2piece? (DF should be like 15-16%, and FFB 13%. Ice lance is usually 20%)

    If that is true, I'll add something to the guide regarding it also, but it's pretty obvious that it even if it is, it would be so little of a dps increase it might not even be worth noting, especially considering that firelands is the 21st. And there's a difference, he put 3/3 into permafrost into his final build (and i know he mentioned that you could put them where you want, but viewers will follow the build put).

    Although many people have called it personal preference, i disagree. The amount of times you are hit below 50% and given the chance of a free ice barrier to drop is much better of a point than the 1-2 times in an entire tier of content your elemental dies.


    I'll have to run the numbers regarding that because it doesn't make sense.

    DF and FFB are more damage combined than Ice Lance is, so why would crit be worse than haste/mastery after t11 2piece? (DF should be like 15-16%, and FFB 13%. Ice lance is usually 20%)

    If that is true, I'll add something to the guide regarding it also, but it's pretty obvious that it even if it is, it would be so little of a dps increase it might not even be worth noting, especially considering that firelands is the 21st. And there's a difference, he put 3/3 into permafrost into his final build (and i know he mentioned that you could put them where you want, but viewers will follow the build put).



    There's a reason why blizzard gave the mage t11 2pc a 5% crit to IL.

    Frostbolt and IL are by far your most damaging spells in raids. So, by getting 28.34% crit in raids, you cap out your IL with the t11 2pc. This allows you to get 100% IL finger of frost crits. Now when that's cap'd out, this allows you to stack haste which increases procs via frostbolt spam, and let's you stack more mastery which increases your fingers of frost IL damage which is critting 100% of the time. This is an dps increase over getting another 5% crit to cap out your lower damaging spells like DF/FFB. I mean read your 2pc bonus, brah. That 5% IL crit isn't there for looks....

    Kuni's ran the numbers and it's a DPS increase.

    WTB Lhivera to confirm so switch will blindly agree, and change his guide accordingly.
    There's a reason why blizzard gave the mage t11 2pc a 5% crit to IL.

    Frostbolt and IL are by far your most damaging spells in raids. So, by getting 28.34% crit in raids, you cap out your IL with the t11 2pc. This allows you to get 100% IL finger of frost crits. Now when that's cap'd out, this allows you to stack haste which increases procs via frostbolt spam, and let's you stack more mastery which increases your fingers of frost IL damage which is critting 100% of the time. This is an dps increase over getting another 5% crit to cap out your lower damaging spells like DF/FFB. I mean read your 2pc bonus, brah. That 5% IL crit isn't there for looks....

    Kuni's ran the numbers and it's a DPS increase.

    WTB Lhivera to confirm so switch will blindly agree, and change his guide accordingly.


    IMO the entire t11 set was mainly geared towards fire. But i guess what i'm getting at is, DF and FFB are still ore damage total than IL is,m and Frostbolt benefits just as much from the crit as it does the haste (the difference may be small, but it's probably evened out by the increased overall damage from crits by DF and FFB.)

    I actually think it is there for looks, because even if it is a dps increase and you gear that way, the dps difference from not gearing that way is so minute that it might as well just be there for looks.

    I'm not arguing that you may not be correct, i'm simply saying that the added complication, on top of the fact that firelands is a week away, AND that it is so small a dps increase makes it not even worth mentioning.
    The value of crit does drop sharply once Ice Lance is capped. At release, it barely dropped below Haste and Mastery at that point, but I haven't rerun sims lately to see if that's still the case (and may not be able to make the time, it's a bit of a PITA).

    Haste and Mastery are fairly close, and can easily switch places depending on how much of each you have.

  • Would you say that they should increase the maximum amount of charges on BF to 2?



  • I don't think it's entirely necessary to increase the number of charges to 2. Sure, it'd be helpful, but the rotation would become more about BF procs than using Frostbolt.


  • What are your thoughts on Ice Lance?


  • I found myself only using Ice Lance out of habit (Bleeding off extra charges during FFO when I should have been saving them for the mass amount of BF Procs) and have since almost stopped using it entirely. The only times I do are when I'm at two FoF charges, no BF proc and Deep Freeze is more than 10 seconds till the CD is up. So really, Ice Lance's only place will be for moving when BF isn't procced and the occasional excess charge moments.

    I'll be running more tests today just to see how everything is working out. I'll try a few different reforging sets to see where my DPS is taking me.

    I ended up race changing (for FREE) to Draenei for the free 1% hit just so I could reforge more things around. It looked like reforging to haste was giving me more consistent DPS which was really nice. I also saw a fairly large DPS increase with Crit, but that's obviously because I wasn't getting my crit raid buffs. I saw a general decrease every time reforging for mastery (only about 1k-700 dps loss), a constant flux in my dps with a balance between mastery and haste reforging (may be due to a lack of crit for the Mastery-benefiting spells not critting, who knows?), and a general gain with Haste reforging.

    I imagine Mastery will be more of value once we're in a raid setting with the crit cap reached as Deep Freeze/Ice Lance(lol)/BF will always be critting instead of the occasional hit I'm getting now (which seems more than occasional :P)


    Side note: I made a shadow priest in full T12 and let me say this: I couldn't break 14k dps on the dummy and I already know the rotation/priority for Shadow. It's rather sad. Hopefully raid buffs fix them a lot? D:
    I ended up race changing (for FREE) to Draenei for the free 1% hit just so I could reforge more things around. It looked like reforging to haste was giving me more consistent DPS which was really nice. I also saw a fairly large DPS increase with Crit, but that's obviously because I wasn't getting my crit raid buffs. I saw a general decrease every time reforging for mastery (only about 1k-700 dps loss), a constant flux in my dps with a balance between mastery and haste reforging (may be due to a lack of crit for the Mastery-benefiting spells not critting, who knows?), and a general gain with Haste reforging.

    I imagine Mastery will be more of value once we're in a raid setting with the crit cap reached as Deep Freeze/Ice Lance(lol)/BF will always be critting instead of the occasional hit I'm getting now (which seems more than occasional :P)


    Side note: I made a shadow priest in full T12 and let me say this: I couldn't break 14k dps on the dummy and I already know the rotation/priority for Shadow. It's rather sad. Hopefully raid buffs fix them a lot? D:



    I hope mastery is of more value. IMO, frost's damage should be centered around giant bursts of damage, with of course virtually no dots. Haste and crit are mainly dominated by arcane and fire, i feel that frost's niche should be with mastery (especially considering crit gets capped and haste is only good for frostbolt).

    We'll see how it turns out though, it's hard to make any substantial predictions with dummy data.
    06/14/2011 11:50 PMPosted by Steehl
    I imagine Mastery will be more of value once we're in a raid setting with the crit cap reached as Deep Freeze/Ice Lance(lol)/BF will always be critting instead of the occasional hit I'm getting now (which seems more than occasional :P)


    Hopefully it's value will surpass haste's eventually
    I ended up race changing (for FREE) to Draenei for the free 1% hit just so I could reforge more things around. It looked like reforging to haste was giving me more consistent DPS which was really nice. I also saw a fairly large DPS increase with Crit, but that's obviously because I wasn't getting my crit raid buffs. I saw a general decrease every time reforging for mastery (only about 1k-700 dps loss), a constant flux in my dps with a balance between mastery and haste reforging (may be due to a lack of crit for the Mastery-benefiting spells not critting, who knows?), and a general gain with Haste reforging.

    I imagine Mastery will be more of value once we're in a raid setting with the crit cap reached as Deep Freeze/Ice Lance(lol)/BF will always be critting instead of the occasional hit I'm getting now (which seems more than occasional :P)


    Side note: I made a shadow priest in full T12 and let me say this: I couldn't break 14k dps on the dummy and I already know the rotation/priority for Shadow. It's rather sad. Hopefully raid buffs fix them a lot? D:



    I hope mastery is of more value. IMO, frost's damage should be centered around giant bursts of damage, with of course virtually no dots. Haste and crit are mainly dominated by arcane and fire, i feel that frost's niche should be with mastery (especially considering crit gets capped and haste is only good for frostbolt).

    We'll see how it turns out though, it's hard to make any substantial predictions with dummy data.


    But Arcane is all about mastery already.

    I feel like Frost is the "balance" spec. We do decent AoE and Single Target, and we benefit rather evenly from stats. I kinda like it that way.
    But Arcane is all about mastery already.

    I feel like Frost is the "balance" spec. We do decent AoE and Single Target, and we benefit rather evenly from stats. I kinda like it that way.


    I agree, i like how frost is kind of in the middle. But the AoE is definitely not decent haha.Blizzard is easily one of the worst AoE's. I look at things like Rain of Fire and Mind Sear which it should be equal with, but isn't.

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