dungeon journal: down the spiral we go

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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I really don't understand why this is making people upset. The information is already out there, they've just put it in game now. There will still be multiple ways to solve the challenges of a raid encounter. Hard Core Raiders will still do their own thing. All that its changing is the fact that you no long have to minimize and go to wowhead, wowwiki, tankspot, thottbot, youtube, etc. etc. etc. to find out that you need to do X for raid boss Y while he's casting Z.

This changes nothing. It's a tool of convenience that you can choose whether to use or not.
the people who are against this need to stop and think why this is being added

it's because the vast majority of raiders do not want to go outside the game and study up on a fight, watch videos or any other such nonsense, so blizzard is giving the vast majority of raiders the information that they would normally have to get outside the game

how this hinders the ones complaining about it i just don't understand

the main "complaint" is that it takes away the "mystery" ... but the same people complaining are on the PTR doing the fights before they are live and completed, sure there is mystery on the PTR, but when it comes to live and the "race" to the top (which is what the complainers REALLY are complaining about) there is no mystery

which is the 2nd main complaint, that this is somehow going to change the "race" to world firsts ... how ? ... all the top guilds are doing this stuff on the PTR and know all the fights long before a live release so it's another moot point

so the complainers really have no ground to stand on with their arguments, which leads me to believe they are really upset over something else which i think most of us have figured out - driving hits on their videos/guides/websites - this is the only thing that the dungeon journal hurts, and i suppose if you are a world class guild that relies on income from web ads and such then this is really something you would like to stop

but you won't, DJ is happening and it is a very nice addition
No one is taking anything away from you. You personally do not need to (nor does your guild) actually look at the information in the Dungeon Journal at any point in time. If you want to go into it blind, you can.

As for your last two sentences, I highly advise that if you wish to hold a constructive discussion, that you refrain from statements such as those. They are not constructive or productive to this discussion. All the reasons for which we want to add this feature are in my post. If you don't agree, that's OK. But making demands of "Take it out" are not constructive or productive.


Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.
Having never seen the Dungeon Journal, I do not know if I am entirely qualified to add onto this, however, I think one of the main issues a lot of players are dealing with right now is Information Overload.

Since the patch I was having trouble with the combat log lag issue. In order to continue raiding I disabled all my Addons (Not that I had a lot) and unchecked everything in my combat log thus fixing the problem.
The outcome is... I have no issues...

Sure there is a few instances where a Boss Mod could tell me exactly when the next spell is being cast would be helpful. And to be honest I really do find it annoying not to be able to check recount and see who is not pulling their weight, what killed them, dispels, ect. However all of the fights so far give plenty of warning when you know what you are expecting and most of the deaths it is very obvious who messed up and how (Talking Heroic fights here).

However that being said I do not think Immediately giving all the players all the information is the best option. My approach would be to have Bosses be "Unknown" or only very basic information "Chimaeron is Nefarian's very strong beast pet" or some other Lore type thing. And only by actually experiencing the mechanics do they become unlocked into your Dungeon Journal.

I do not know how challenging this would be to implement but I feel this keeps some of the "Mystery" of WoW to newer players. Especially to those who do not really care about reading up boss fights they have no Intention of doing. If they really want to learn about it they will look it up anyway. Very few bosses are one shotted and those that are you most likely learned the fight mechanics quickly. Thus after experiencing all the mechanics you then learn how to kill the boss and your journal is updated so when you go back again you can say, "Oh yea I have to watch out for his charge". Seems like a reasonable path in my mind.

That being said, you say but its my first time and everyone in the group already has the information that is not fair! Fear not. Because when you have entered an instance with someone who has already done some of the fights(or all) your Journal would automaticly be updated for that instance. (Like sharing notes, you are welcome RP'ers)

Sure, people are could pay someone to unlock all the Dungeon Journal entries, but honestly are you really going to gripe about someone for wanting to learn? Its no diffrent from them going onto a website and reading a fourm post.

That will be all I am beginning to lose my train of thought and starting to babble.
Thx
Why are people getting so upset? All this information is already available. However you need to go to 3rd party websites to get the information. This just makes it easier / safer to obtain that information.

They even clearly said for the harder heroic bosses it will not show some abilities.

If you think this journal is suddenly going to make all pug raids and raids that were failing before instantly able to beat them, your sadly mistaken.
Like many people are saying, the Info is already out there from datamining then put into kill videos so whats the difference if its put in-game so you dont have to tab out for the info? There isnt one, quit being whiners and be happy you dont have to rely on other people to down content first so that you know what to do.
The thing is, that this is *already* a matter of simple convenience in that we don't have to tab out to check a strat. The top guilds *don't want* to already know a single thing. By the time the rest of us do get that far, the strats are *already out.* As a result, like I keep saying, this DJ is absolutely nothing but anti-tabout convenience, which gives us *nothing,* while *taking away from the fun* of the top-end guilds, and those of us who spectate as the best of the best figure this stuff out *on their own,* which is *what they want.* Blizz and the rest of the DJ supporters should really see this, and realize that it's only something that takes away from the top-end guilds' enjoyment, to add something that's simply an anti-tab-out convencience. That's the *only* thing this gives non-top-end raiders. I don't agree that those people should lose their fun, others should lose the fun of spectating that, simply to let people look up a strat without tabbing out, because that's all this gives us.


Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Omg is it really that hard to get things down after a few times? This is not counting DBM and all the other add ons out there that already trivialize things.

I run with a whole variety of people for raids. When I run with the competent group is when I got my heroic chimaeron achievement. We took 4 tries and we downed him. When I got Al Akir down. Same damn thing. We learned, we adapted and made it work. Obviously I'm not a true heroic raider but I ran with those who are over 10/13 Heroic modes.

You wouldn't be that far ahead if you weren't competent. They pick it up quickly and all I seen don't spend more than a few hours on progression before things are down. If that.


Who do you think writes the DBM modules and videos everyone watches? I'm not sure if the rest of this post is a troll or not, but the higher you get on the progression ladder, you can expect to spend a LOT of time working out mechanics on the most complex of fights. Sure, players will quickly adapt to the actual skill requirements of executing a fight, but learning HOW to execute the fight is the fun part for a lot of people. And that takes a lot of time.

Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Except you already have to make that choice to go read the information and watch the videos on an external location to compete.

The informational available elsewhere also provides far more information than we are providing in the Dungeon Journal. Again, all we're doing is giving you information to get started. What you choose to do what that information is up to you.

Reading the Dungeon Journal will not make you suddenly become Keanu Reeves in the Matrix (or Chuck Bartowski) and say, "I know Kung Fu."

Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Except you already have to make that choice to go read the information and watch the videos on an external location to compete.

The informational available elsewhere also provides far more information than we are providing in the Dungeon Journal. Again, all we're doing is giving you information to get started. What you choose to do what that information is up to you.

Reading the Dungeon Journal will not make you suddenly become Keanu Reeves in the Matrix (or Chuck Bartowski) and say, "I know Kung Fu."


Not to pick on you specifically, but this is an argument a lot of people seem to make, and to put it bluntly: not everyone has videos to watch in the first place, or especially laid out strats like that. None of us have EVER seen a Rag video, yet anyone who has read the dungeon journal probably has a fairly good idea of what to expect from the fight, with only strategic tweaks to be made to down the boss, rather than going in with absolutely nothing besides some tooltips that you ASSUME are from Rag. It's a big difference.

Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Except you already have to make that choice to go read the information and watch the videos on an external location to compete.

The informational available elsewhere also provides far more information than we are providing in the Dungeon Journal. Again, all we're doing is giving you information to get started. What you choose to do what that information is up to you.

Reading the Dungeon Journal will not make you suddenly become Keanu Reeves in the Matrix (or Chuck Bartowski) and say, "I know Kung Fu."


It's a no-brainer. "X ability: Creates a patch of fire at X % of health/time" Okay, at that point, don't stand in the fire. The strats are indirectly being explained already. This arguement is flawed as a result.

Yes, many of us do make the choice to tab out and watch a vid or read a strat, or both. But the top-end guilds do NOT, so that arguement is also flawed. They don't have it and they don't want it. You're simply adding an anti-tab-out convencience to players at the cost of the top-end guilds and those who spectate the races. It isn't good and it isn't wanted, except by those who don't understand this.

Simply not true. We shouldn't have to choose between the excitement of figuring things our for ourselves and staying competitive with other guilds who WILL use the journal.


Except you already have to make that choice to go read the information and watch the videos on an external location to compete.

The informational available elsewhere also provides far more information than we are providing in the Dungeon Journal. Again, all we're doing is giving you information to get started. What you choose to do what that information is up to you.

Reading the Dungeon Journal will not make you suddenly become Keanu Reeves in the Matrix (or Chuck Bartowski) and say, "I know Kung Fu."


No, we don't. Very early on that information is not widely available.

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