New Raid system...no

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I hope it doesn't last that long either, but it seems something has changed about their plans for quicker content releases if these two patches are any indication.


I hope that plan isn't set in motion until after 4.2 (and thus 4.3 would be the first fast patch we'd see). That is likely a bit optimistic, and I don't have anything solid to base it on.

This is a poor analogy; ashes of al'ar is a < 1% drop that one person gets. The dark phoenix mount is handed to anyone who is in the guild of a group that has killed normal raid bosses.



It's really pretty ugly, and not worth having. Even the icc drakes look better (although I understand that's not the case in 4.2 -- I haven't copied my character to ptr since I had the guild rep for the phoenix).
Outgearing the current raid content with T11 is more than enough to clear them. There is no need to add additional nerfs.


Yes real life works the way I presented it. You aren't gift wrapped success. Success is earned and different levels of success are adequate for different people. This would be analogous to different difficulties. I have already said it's doubtful that I will progress much more into hm, but I'm ok with that and don't think blizz should nerf them just so I can see the content.

I'm not ok with cheapening the game as it produces poor players. As a massively multilayer game we all have to play together. Making the player base better makes the game better. As for other games blizz is only out to make money and I understand that, however, I think that this mentality hurts the quality of the game.


Yet you miss the point as many do

It is a game, if it stops being a game and starts requiring an obsessional deviotion then ti stops being fun a people quit. Like the 600,000 who quit in the first 4 months of Cata.

If they walk away then what do you do, as Blizzard there losing over a 100,000,000 $ a year to cater to elitists? I dont think so


Please don't imply the 600,000 people who quit are bad players who can't even handle a little challenge. You don't even require obsessional devotion to do the current normal raid content. Heroic raids are the ones that require hardcore devotion.

And what if despite the nerfs, you all still can't clear the current raid content? Are you gonna keep asking for more nerfs, instead of doing the right thing and actualy IMPROVE?
05/24/2011 09:25 PMPosted by Ologhai
Back when I was in high school , I played baseball and was far from the best. I had fun and never demanded that I be the starting short stop and bat number 3 just to experience the content. If I wanted those things I had to earn them. Challenge in fun. Competition is fun. Learning and improving is fun.


There are also different teams to play on. There are intermural and community teams where you can be pretty much terrible and still get to play, there are semi-professional teams, and there are Pro teams where if you're not the best of the best, you get cut.

Sounds a lot like having easy/old/nerfed raid content (where you can pretty much suck and still get a spot in the raid), normal raid content (where you need to be competent but not the best of the best), and heroic raid content (where if you're not absolutely on top of your game, you're out).


Olog, perhaps you can explain your position a bit better. See, right now, the progression is: Leveling > Dungeons > Heroics > (Optionally Zandalari Heroics >) Normal T11 > Heroic T11. The design of the JP/VP system is that when the new raid tier comes out, the old VP gear becomes JP gear. As such, the following will be a perfectly acceptable progression path in 4.2: Leveling > Dungeons > Heroics > (Optionally Zandalri Heroics + T11 >) Normal T12 > Heroic T12

In both paths, after heroics you have an optional higher level of content that is harder than normal heroics but not at the level of the top end content, and then you have top end content that demands skill in order to complete.

So what I want you to explain is this: Given that the progression path is designed to allow you to progress from heroics to the top-end raid if you so desire, and given that you will be able to do so in 4.2, how does a change to content that will be optional and not an explicit part of the progression path translate to coddling players?



Also, you are of course stating your subjective opinions at blatant fact. I agree that challenge is fun, as are competition and improvement. Not everyone does. They don't get to do the top-end content, and they never will. The catch is, since top-end content changes with each new tier, there's no harm in modifying older content so that more people can get into it (even if they're not quite as skilled). Raids aren't the LFD; you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to play with.
Anyone in here complaining about the nerfs is NOT a raider of any distinction, those GOOD raiders will be in the new content and not worrying about the old.
the people that dont want "bads" or "casuals" getting into the raids are actually people that use the titles, raids etc as status symbols, those that raid and do so regulary dont care if the raids they USED to raid get nerfed.
Don't assume that the 600k people who 'quit' left because content was too difficult for them. It's far more likely that those people did not re-sub because they had consumed the content that was relevant to them(that they were interested in) and chose to wait until more content was released.
What's missing out of the two tier model that Blizzard has haphazardly slapped together prior to 4.2, is a sensible loot progression.

As soon as 4.2 launches, with JP awarding ilvl359 gear and VP awarding ilvl378 gear, the incentive to run BWD/BoT/Tot4W is significantly diminished or eliminated altogether.

Raiders that have cleared T11 content and have ilvl359/372 gear will now simply proceed into Firelands.

Raiders that have not cleared any or all T11 content and have ilvl346/353/359 gear (from entry level heroics, ZA/ZG, and bits of previously VP gear) will now simply farm JP from entry level heroics to get most of their remaining ilvl359 gear. And then they will simply proceed into Firelands.

Nerfed or not nerfed, T11 raids will still take too much time given the rewards. In particular, raiders that have not cleared any or all T11 content are likely time/group/skill constrained. They have no motivation to waste time and/or energy on T11 raids, when they can start working on the first few Firelands bosses, as well as Firelands trash that will likely yield BoE epics/recipes etc.

In short, Blizzard has failed at creating two tiers of raiding because of a flawed loot system.

What was really needed at the launch of Cataclysm, was two tiers of raiding, plus three progressive tiers of points - VP/xP/JP.

JP would award ilvl346 gear, commensurate with heroic gear. xP would award ilvl359 gear, commensurate with T11. VP would award ilvl372 gear, commensurate with T12. And, Blizzard should have introduced a blue ilvl346 tier set.

If you want to go back and run The Eye for Ashes of Al'ar you're welcome to do so, and I don't think you'll need a 20% nerf to help.


It is a bit insulting when you see people running around with some of these titles like "the immortal", when you busted your butt back in 213 gear to get it , when tanks had 25k health, and dps did 4.5k, and yet they can still get it with 130k hp dps, that do 24k dps.

Yet you miss the point as many do

It is a game, if it stops being a game and starts requiring an obsessional deviotion then ti stops being fun a people quit. Like the 600,000 who quit in the first 4 months of Cata.

If they walk away then what do you do, as Blizzard there losing over a 100,000,000 $ a year to cater to elitists? I dont think so


I see and understand your point. I enjoy the challenge the game presents. This is a personal opinion. I understand and have stated that blizz thinks that they will make more money by making the content easier.

My argument is that people will enjoy the game more if they are properly lead along and feel a sense of accomplishment. In my opinion, more people would enjoy struggling and finally succeeding then facerolling.

Many games require dedication to do well (see my sports analogy) and this does in no way make the experience less enjoyable. Its the if I can't be the best I'll quit mentality which blizz rightly need to counter if they want to be sucessful as a company. So how do you do that? Make the players better. Success through adversity is always enjoyable.

Multiply difficulties would encourage that feeling of accomplishment and train player for the next task without cheapening others accomplishments.

There are also different teams to play on. There are intermural and community teams where you can be pretty much terrible and still get to play, there are semi-professional teams, and there are Pro teams where if you're not the best of the best, you get cut.

Sounds a lot like having easy/old/nerfed raid content (where you can pretty much suck and still get a spot in the raid), normal raid content (where you need to be competent but not the best of the best), and heroic raid content (where if you're not absolutely on top of your game, you're out).


Olog, perhaps you can explain your position a bit better. See, right now, the progression is: Leveling > Dungeons > Heroics > (Optionally Zandalari Heroics >) Normal T11 > Heroic T11. The design of the JP/VP system is that when the new raid tier comes out, the old VP gear becomes JP gear. As such, the following will be a perfectly acceptable progression path in 4.2: Leveling > Dungeons > Heroics > (Optionally Zandalri Heroics + T11 >) Normal T12 > Heroic T12

In both paths, after heroics you have an optional higher level of content that is harder than normal heroics but not at the level of the top end content, and then you have top end content that demands skill in order to complete.

So what I want you to explain is this: Given that the progression path is designed to allow you to progress from heroics to the top-end raid if you so desire, and given that you will be able to do so in 4.2, how does a change to content that will be optional and not an explicit part of the progression path translate to coddling players?



Also, you are of course stating your subjective opinions at blatant fact. I agree that challenge is fun, as are competition and improvement. Not everyone does. They don't get to do the top-end content, and they never will. The catch is, since top-end content changes with each new tier, there's no harm in modifying older content so that more people can get into it (even if they're not quite as skilled). Raids aren't the LFD; you don't have to play with anyone you don't want to play with.


You said it yourself there are different leagues. Different difficulties would prevent them from having to nerf the content they create. Everyone finds a niche and everyone has fun.
The point of the game is to provide enjoyment for their customers. And, because this game requires a monthly subscription, content that is too hard or unaccessible will cause a loss of subscribers. Blizzard clearly has the statistics that show people are not enamored with the current model and thus are going to change it accordingly. This is sound business. The whims of a few insecure people who wish to show status because of a title are not worth the loss of tens of millions of dollars in revenue.
Anyone in here complaining about the nerfs is NOT a raider of any distinction, those GOOD raiders will be in the new content and not worrying about the old.
the people that dont want "bads" or "casuals" getting into the raids are actually people that use the titles, raids etc as status symbols, those that raid and do so regulary dont care if the raids they USED to raid get nerfed.


What an arrogant statement by someone who hasn't cleared even Argaloth. I'm actually a raider because I try my best instead of asking for nerfs, and I have cleared some bosses. To imply that only heroic mode raiders are raiders is a very self-serving behaviour, trying to support your case to nerf normal raids.

It makes more sense that people like you are the ones who are not raiders, and you should stay out of raids if you can't handle the heat, instead of asking for them to be watered down to suit your speed.

Don't give your 2 cents about raiding when you don't know anything about it. And please don't try to put words in raiders mouth about what they care and don't care because you are not one.
Anyone in here complaining about the nerfs is NOT a raider of any distinction, those GOOD raiders will be in the new content and not worrying about the old.
the people that dont want "bads" or "casuals" getting into the raids are actually people that use the titles, raids etc as status symbols, those that raid and do so regulary dont care if the raids they USED to raid get nerfed.


I want all players to be better. The hardcore crowd will always need to fill the ranks. Do you want players who stand in fire taking the spot of those who have to stop playing for some reason or another? Do you want to wipe over and over b/c someone doesn't now their class, but got a spot b/c they have gear they didn't earn?

Better players = better runs = more fun for all simple as that.
"I think if they plan to do this, they need to make a higher gap between the gear quality of each tier."

And the reason for that would be what again? What does it matter if the gap is only 5 or 6 levels? Hell, for that matter why does it matter if someone can get comparable gear outside of a raid (which they can through the badge system, albeit at a snails pace). I have never understood people who place such a high value on their gear as if that means anything to anyone else.

"Or I think the best idea is to just have a third difficulty level under normal, that gives blues or 353 epics to allow people to see content or get raid experience, without nerfing normal mode."

I would be all for that on a condition. The condition being that gear is tied to raids and are ONLY useable in the raids they come from and the next tier up. I mean, isnt the whole purpose of the gear to progress in the raid, so why does someone need 367 level raid gear to run a heroic instance?

"....as long as heroics aren't turned into what late ICC was (heroics being an absolute joke outside of LK)."


Not sure if you mean heroics or hard modes but either way, you don't think that once people wear T12 and T13 that running a hard mode BWD isnt going to be a joke? And the funniest part is that while you say you would rather see "a higher gap between gear" that also means substantially higher stats which means substantially higher dps, mana pools and survivability. You simply cannot have it both ways.

People seriously need to get over themselves and get a feeling of reward simply from knowing that hey, I was able to complete BWD or any other raid before most people. I always laugh at people that feel some need to stay "special" above other players who are paying the same monthly fees to play a game. In some ways I kinda miss having class specific gear drop in raids. I always loved being able to sub out players on raid bosses for people who needed gear like we did in MC and BWL. Sure did piss off those elitist folks in the guild who @!#@%ed that "hey, they don't raid, they shouldnt get an epic".
05/24/2011 09:54 PMPosted by Razormaid
The point of the game is to provide enjoyment for their customers. And, because this game requires a monthly subscription, content that is too hard or unaccessible will cause a loss of subscribers. Blizzard clearly has the statistics that show people are not enamored with the current model and thus are going to change it accordingly. This is sound business. The whims of a few insecure people who wish to show status because of a title are not worth the loss of tens of millions of dollars in revenue.


You mean insecure like you who don't even have the guts to post on your main because you are afraid of the backlash, as opposed to someone like me who posts on his main and will willingly accept consequences for speaking his mind?

Makes sense.

And we are not few. You are. If you bad players like to use that 600k subs as people who quit because they can't handle even a tiny challenge, then there are still 11 million of us who can.

11million > 600k

You're bad at this game, but surely you are not bad at maths right?
05/24/2011 09:56 PMPosted by Deadums
This is an attitude that gets under my skin even though it doesnt apply to me as self improvement is a personal choice. When you start demanding that people improve rather than making things easier then you had better be prepared to start paying them to improve.


Wow does pay you. You get shiny rewards for killing bosses. That's the whole idea.
If a 20% nerf is needed for there to not be a wellfare 5 man every new tier I'm all for it.

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