Raid Updates for 4.2

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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05/24/2011 06:09 PMPosted by Svetas
If it bothers you so much that "I never got to see the normal modes as they currently are!" then get off your duff and go see them. This is a good change.


In case your mind can't go any more complex than finding one problem at a time with things, there are way more barriers to raid/end game progression than just difficulty, but again only the difficulty gets nerfed, not any of the other barriers to entry are ever looked at.

For example I just can log in, enter the instance, get thrown into a raid that is ready to complete this all tonight, willing to stick together, be nice, fair and progress everything all in that night.

Many people that can't do this stuff due to being a real "casual" will not even be affected in any positive manner, because difficulty is likely not their issue.

I just don't see that as a problem... they get a little cakewalk, farm it for a few weeks and stroll into Firelands with everyone else.

Odds are, they will perform much the same there... if they get better, they beat Firelands before it's nerfed... if not, they use the nerfs and move on to the next raid.

It lets the middle-skilled people get to move on as long as they are trying.


Those people will burn out even faster than those who raid 6 times a week because they will either be bored or jaded by the content. Bored because it's so damn easy or jaded because it's so damn hard.
I haven't even reached the raid content yet and I still don't like this. I don't want to have to say after doing it for the first time, "What the hell? I'm a crap player and even I thought this was far too easy! It shouldn't BE this easy!"

That being said, at least it's only affecting Normals and not Heroics. For now.
@Keepsayke: I think the problem is that you are assuming that beating the content is the point. You're assuming that, above all else, I want to be able to walk into Firelands as soon as possible and down as many bosses as I can, as quickly as I can. The thing is, that's not the reason I play. I don't play for purples, or even to be able to say I've downed so-and-so. I play, and raid, for the experience of getting a group of friends together to go up against something that challenges us.
I have some words for Blizzard...
Wow
I can't believe after your sub base went down you did this! Get a freaking clue! Do you know who posts on the forum, please that have no skill I downed all of these bosses and some on heroic. I got gear and got skill all these whiney people that post on the forums are about 5% of your sub base!
I think this is a huge mistake on Blizzards part and will only further your decline is subs. 6 years is a long time, I will admit that but I think Blizzard has lost the touch it had before cataclysm. Many people in my guild are un-subing and I think Blizzard is taking their company the wrong way.
Please Blizzard Fix this problem!! Make people rise to the challenge not whine until its fixed!
05/24/2011 06:21 PMPosted by Moros
Dont really dont see a big deal in this nerf as long as they dont nerf other raids....I can see why they nerfed these raids keep in mind that level 60-80 raids are pretty much done and these are the STARTER raids so it'll give the noobs some preparation for firelands and other raids that should be difficult, basically I think blizzard is trying to to "scale the skill" of WoW player if that makes sense


I do, the problem is people aren't willing to get better, they'll try a raid, wipe on the first boss, and than spam "Teh Raidz iz too hard1!!1" threads on the forums. By nerfing content they're actually making the problem worse because people will have no reason to improve, all they'll do is continue to be mediocre and cry on the forums until Blizz caves and nerfs the content.


I agree with you, however I view the nerfing of current normal content as unnecessary. On one side you have lazier players who won't even clear the content regardless, and on the other you have people who would like to learn to raid. One side doesn't even get what it wants from the nerf, and the other is done a disservice.


To be fair, there are still a good number of people in the middle of your examples. There are a fair number of guilds that try but fail... that take the 1st few bosses, but just can't move on. These guilds will get the extra push to make the grade.

I have been in a couple of casual-raid guilds exaclty like this... one could not down the LK until the full ICC buff was in effect. They try, but just aren't particularly good. These nerfs are for them.


But what you also don't get is that there are many people who want challenge, that want something to look forward to and feel deserved. They don't want content to just run through it, hit the end and say game over, they want ways to be kept busy, experience the same thing as their guildies or friends in the past had or experience the lore with the appropriate difficulty.


I didn't get to Kill LK till after like the 25% nerf, it sucked, Why? because my guilds first clear was on like 15% or 10%, they really didn't entirely favor it either, but I was gone for about a measly 3-4 weeks of raiding (compared to how long ICC was max tier).


ICC was the only content notable to do, so people quit playing at the end, going back on dungeons was pointless, not challenging or rewarding. People didn't quit because LK was too hard, he was pretty hard for organized groups even, but that was all the content, RS had 1 real boss, with a crappy loot table on 10, and just good trinkets on 25. It was just a big headache, and tanks getting killed in 3 seconds wasn't fun, I remember healing that fight, it was horrid experience. It was so much work for a tiny reward.
Foolish, foolish idea, the raid encounters aren't even hard. Such a wasteful nerf.
This is not just about making the prior content easier, being able to JP grind to buy T11 does that pretty decently for pretty much any guild that can take a few minutes to form a group and communicate somewhat effectively.

IMHO the most important aspect of the nerf itself is to feed and nourish the servers pug "ecosystem" (currently very weak and limited) made of unguilded players, alts and people that do heroics only because don't want/care to commit in time or effort to a raiding guild.

I don't think this is bad, this makes the whole player base more active and allows the content to be enjoyed by the whole spectrum of players and the new tier and the heroic modes still give the players looking for more of a challenge what they are looking for.

Whats the problem?
Dear Blizz,
Since you are taking your time on tuning the normal content for easier players to see the "content" , won't it just be better to just implement an "easy" mode that people can go to to see the content and leave the normal mode alone. The rewards will be fewer of course but this will allow the players to see the "content" as you guys really want :) .
At least it's not heroic modes I guess. I still hate sweeping content nerfs like this.
I'm SO sorry! I'll get right on it and have 12/12 by the end of the week. *Sarcasm*

I'm a casual player (no not someone who sucks just someone who cant play all the time) and I'm apart of my guilds Team 2 that doesn't have a real group formed yet. I'm sure you dont have any problems with pugging 4 to 6 people (at least 2 of them being healers) but we prefer to be 100% sure that everyone cooperates and works together and not get a bunch of random people who cant pull their own weight.

And before you say it I'm NOT leaving my guild. I like my guild, the people are fun, understanding and well coordinated. I am NOT going to wine to my guild that I want 12/12 before the next patch. Its childish and THEY should not pay for the fact that Blizz has chosen to cater to people who feel that they should be GIVEN the ability to walk through a raid even tho they probably wont even finish it.


I was actually being sarcastic with the "noob" statement... and I edited it out afterwards.

Anyway, read my post that is just above your last one as to why this nerf is fantastic for you (and i am not being sarcastic here).



*sigh* I understand your point, I really do, but I don't think your grasping my personality. I feel that all things should be WORKED for not GIVEN. Nerfing this content is GIVING it to the people who wine about it being TOO HARD. If you want more on my stance on this Total Biscuit shares my stance on this you can find his reasoning here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndcysuEIqus

As to you "Noob" comment I understand that it was "meant" to be a joke or something but you need to realize that being called a Noob on the internet can offend people who can not hear the sarcasm in your voice and it can offend them. I know how to play the game and I will admit if I'm a noob in a cretin aspect but I feel the term noob does NOT fit me.
Yay now we will have the wotlk retards back. people that are unwilling to learn and stepping into raids when they have no REAL raiding xp because Blizzard would rather support people who refuse to learn their damn classes and quite honestly SUCK. Way to Go Blizzard. Hello Rift!

I just don't see that as a problem... they get a little cakewalk, farm it for a few weeks and stroll into Firelands with everyone else.

Odds are, they will perform much the same there... if they get better, they beat Firelands before it's nerfed... if not, they use the nerfs and move on to the next raid.

It lets the middle-skilled people get to move on as long as they are trying.


Those people will burn out even faster than those who raid 6 times a week because they will either be bored or jaded by the content. Bored because it's so damn easy or jaded because it's so damn hard.


Possibly... but guilds that get stuck in a progression chain tend to fizzle out and lose players too (often people that don't leave the guild so much as they no longer log on)... so I am not sure it is worse.
Cause overgearing the content wasn't enough for the players to beat it? The content needed a 20% nerf? Really? I'm seriously considering Rift atm, despite it being a worse game than WoW. It's all about the direction WoW is taking. I quit during wrath because of the "ez mode" direction Blizz was taking. I came back during Cata because it was the direction of Vanilla/BC, where they were bringing back difficulty. Yes, Heroics are still the same, but that's not the point. The point is bad players (who are actually a very small, albeit vocal number of the subs) should not cause the game to lower itself to them. They should rise up to meet the game's challenges. If not, too bad for them.

Dear Blizz,
Since you are taking your time on tuning the normal content for easier players to see the "content" , won't it just be better to just implement an "easy" mode that people can go to to see the content and leave the normal mode alone. The rewards will be fewer of course but this will allow the players to see the "content" as you guys really want :) .


If said easy mode didn't reward valor or anything higher than 353 epics (personally I'd prefer it to award blues, maybe 352 blues). Why? The easy mode would be to SEE the content, not to get the gear. If they want the gear, they should step up and learn to play better.
05/24/2011 06:57 PMPosted by Scubasage
Cause overgearing the content wasn't enough for the players to beat it? The content needed a 20% nerf? Really? I'm seriously considering Rift atm, despite it being a worse game than WoW. It's all about the direct WoW is taking. I quit during wrath because of the "ez mode" direct Blizz was taking. I came back during Cata because it was the direction of Vanilla/BC, where they were bringing back difficulty. Yes, Heroics are still the same, but that's not the point. The point is bad players (who are actually a very small, albeit vocal number of the subs) should not cause the game to lower itself to them. They should rise up to meet the game's challenges. If not, too bad for them.


I've been saying that, good to know I'm not the only who sees things that way
Power creep should be enough to get people through the old content faster - 4.1 already gets new raiders better geared for Tier 11; I assume 4.2 will give as another set of 5 player dungeons to better gear up new players for Tier 12. If they don't want to or can't find a group to do Tier 11 content for them to gear up they shouldn't have to, and no amount of nerfs in the world is going to get more people to do old content they're tired of after waiting 6 months for new content.
This is pathetic! All this will do is produce is a bunch of entitles scrubs w/ 359 gear who will think they are better than they actually are. Then, when they jump into firelands with gear they did not earn, they will wipe continuously because they never learned to play and demand more nerfs until we get the snooze fest that was wotlk.

Thanks a lot blizz. This is the kind of stuff that makes me want to quit. The seven bosses in firelands better be awesome or this is one customer that will be going elsewhere.

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