Raid Updates for 4.2

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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What will happen to the old JP gear? Will there be a new vendor with reduced prices (like 1/2 or 1/3 of the current prices?

I still think it's too soon for these kind of nerfs to go into play. Given that people will be able to buy t11 from JP and so on through the expac will naturally make the raids easier as people use gear from heroic VP and rep vendors in the future to take down those bosses.

We saw it in wrath well enough. People who couldn't clear ulduar HMs were stomping it flat in ICC gear for instance, without the need for massive amounts of nerfbats at the time.

Natural gear progression through the JP and VP vendors and rep vendors will eventually self nerf the content. I don't feel that nerfing the boss mechanics this hard will help other than to reinforce the 'I want it easymode' players opinions.

Sure not everyone can raid this current tier, but if they get the gear after the patch it will make normal mode t11 easier.

What we're going to see instead is all these people now zooming through the nerfed normal t11 content will slam up against t12 and the crying will be immense. There will be no reason for these players to get better and just give them more incentive to try and get current mode raids nerfed.
While I am saddened to see the challenge go, I do at least take solace in the fact my alts might get some gear.
With the addition of a new tier of armor and weapons, we want to make the previous tier more accessible in ways other than just a shift of currency type, so we are making item level 359 gear purchasable for Justice points in the upcoming content patch.


There really won't be much incentive to go back and do the old raids then... the only reasons I can think of is achievements (because of how nerfed the normal modes are), and to fill a few item gaps that you can't fill with JP. I'm assuming that t11 content will drop JP now instead of VP? It's nice to see normal modes nerfed but I think it should have been done in 4.1 before this content becomes obsolete, it will be like Ulduar in 3.3 soon enough, a forgotten raid tier.

Thanfully, heroic modes are being untouched, so the changes don't bother me. It's just that the quoted section had me a bit confused, because an upgrade in gear (JP = 359s) is already indirectly nerfing the content, so why was the overkill necessary for further nerfs?
With the upcoming content patch, 10- and 25-person Normal mode raid encounters will be receiving a comprehensive set of tuning adjustments to decrease their difficulty.

These changes will allow players, groups, and guilds who have yet to experience the content in Blackwing Descent, Bastion of Twilight, and Throne of the the Four Winds an opportunity to do so.

With the addition of a new tier of armor and weapons, we want to make the previous tier more accessible in ways other than just a shift of currency type, so we are making item level 359 gear purchasable for Justice points in the upcoming content patch.

Read the updated patch notes here http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2723732#dungeons to see the current list of changes. Please note that all adjustments are subject to change based on the current 4.2 testing on the PTR.


Really? What this looks like to me is "We wanted to make it so guilds that haven't cleared current content yet will not be able to, but instead will clear a cheaper less significant copy of that content. This will make them happy because they don't care about challenge, just achievements and loot."

Oh well, at least you didn't nerf heroic mode too.
05/24/2011 11:22 AMPosted by Quindo
Why not just make another difficulty called easy mode and put the nerfed fights in that tier? I want to be able to play the content at as close to original difficulty as possible.


This is dumb to say.

Is the intended difficulty of BWD a raid full of people wearing 346 blues, or 359 purps?

In the original ghostcrawler post regarding difficulty, he pointed out that content nerfs itself due to continual gear improvement.

If you want a challenge, don't overgear content.
Doesn't matter to me, really. It'll let people who were struggling to finish tier 11 the opportunity to finish it in tier 12 (when it's old news anyways). And I'll also be satisfied in knowing I killed Cho'gall and the other bosses before they got nerfed heavily, as well. Here's looking forward to the Firelands.
I Have a question, In the initial statement on this page is said that this was a nerf to normal mode of the current raids, however, the new patch notes for the ptr say nothing about this being the case except for a few ability that have changed entirely in relation to heroic mode. So my question is, which is the case, are the changes only going to be applied to normal mode as you say, or did the patch notes fail to mention if the changes were only for normal mode.
05/24/2011 11:30 AMPosted by Solder
IMO, this should have been done in 4.1. My guild didn't really have a tough time working through Nefarion, but we still continue to wipe on Cho'gall. The design of that fight was just idiotic for 10-man groups. It managed to make me HATE this expansion and HATE raiding after almost 5 years of play.

...

Are you nuts? Cho'gall's way easier than Nefarian.


Agreed. This sounds strange.
I honestly don't see an issue with this. It's not final endgame anymore, let people see it.
05/24/2011 11:37 AMPosted by Matick
so why was the overkill necessary for further nerfs?


the only thing I can figure, is that it was for getting the Defender title, or mount achieve, or possibly the 4pc...but even thats a bit of a stretch, I'm guessing its more mis-direction, like an illusionist, but hey...I might be way off since I haven't seen anyone else go the direction I am thinking about.

/shrug
05/24/2011 09:34 AMPosted by Fraudir
At least I got to experience the intended difficulty.


This. I really hope Blizz will do it ICC style, in that you can turn off the nerf if you don't want to make it easier by 20%

What we're going to see instead is all these people now zooming through the nerfed normal t11 content will slam up against t12 and the crying will be immense. There will be no reason for these players to get better and just give them more incentive to try and get current mode raids nerfed.


Indeed. Bad players will continue to be bad regardless of these changes, in fact it will probably make them worse, and reinforces their feelings of entitlement. I'm sorry but if you can't clear current content you shouldn't be able to move on to new content. Blizzard should set standards and not lower them every patch to accommodate the babies. T11 normals are not that hard, and it's not just a nerf to the end bosses which might make a little more sense, but instead every single boss gets nerfed? If you are that bad that you need these sweeping nerfs to beat the content just stop raiding.
Really? What this looks like to me is "We wanted to make it so guilds that haven't cleared current content yet will not be able to, but instead will clear a cheaper less significant copy of that content. This will make them happy because they don't care about challenge, just achievements and loot."

Oh well, at least you didn't nerf heroic mode too.


Believe it or not, there are guilds that put in a lot of effort for the current raiding, and for several reason just couldn't do it. These same people, however, were easily able to blow through heroics and every other piece of content in cataclysm. This left us with nothing to do. We couldn't do raiding because we hit a brick wall, unable to make progress. What we needed was something in between the difficulty of current raiding and 5-man heroics.

In the past, this was taken care of because raiding had a more gradual slope in difficulty. Look at BC raiding, which cata was more modeled after (except for missing the difficulty ramp up completely in cata). In BC, the first several bosses of Kara were easier than several of the heroic 5-mans (SH, slabs, etc). Nobody complained about those first several bosses being too easy because overall the difficulty in kara ramped up. The problem with the current raiding tier is it's binary nature for several guilds. My guild never felt we were making any progress. We just hit a brick wall and that was it. With something like kara, we could kill a few bosses, and slowly make progress as the difficulty from one boss to the next ramped up fairly slow. This is what keeps people interested.

I could easily make a game that is far to challenging for any of the current wow playerbase. I could make a game with 5 levels (somewhat like 5 bosses in a raid encounter), and set the difficulty so no current wow player could complete even the first one. But just in case, I could double the difficulty of the next level. How fun would this game be for those players? They would shrug it off as being impossible, and not fun...even if it was technically possible to beat all of those 5 levels I created.

The problem is that currently there's no middle ground. The jump from heroics to regular raiding is steep enough that it leaves a lot of people with nothing to do.

Heroics are too easy for us, and regular raiding is too difficult. This wasn't a problem in BC because they made the difficulty overlap. Some heroics were harder than the initial bosses of raiding, and then slowly raiding difficulty started to surpass heroics as you went farther along in the raid. The current designers tried to make a challenging game like BC, but they lacked the insight that the BC designers had into properly providing an entire spectrum of difficulty ranges. Cataclysm is too binary, and it is killing the subscription base.

BC had it right in difficulty between heroics and raiding, and between regular dungeons and heroics for that matter. There MUST be overlaps. There should be regular dungeons that are harder than the easiest heroics, but make sure even that easy heroic ramps up so that the last boss is more difficult than anything in that hardest normal dungeon.

Same thing for raiding. The difficulty should start off at least around the same difficulty as the hardest heroics, but slowly ramp up. This is how it worked in one of the best raids blizzard ever created...Karazhan. It starts off slightly easier than the hardest heroics, and gradually surpasses that.
Very disappointed to read about the massive list of nerfs..
Just.. generally very disappointed in Blizzard in how they've handled the Cataclysm content, which at one point showed great promise. This just isn't the game I fell in love with two years ago (almost to the day).

Thus, I unsubbed about 10 minutes ago. Thanks for the memories.
Cheers.
This won't make people stay. I know it just validates my departure.
If your soul purpose is to allow players who obviously can't achieve victory in current raids to "see" the content than just take away all raid style mechanics and put the boss health at a level = to heroic dungeons.

P.S. even if you do that there will still be people that complain that it is to difficult

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