Arms PvP Guide - Info and Tactics (4.3)

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06/09/2011 11:05 AMPosted by Squirrelnut
So my question is, since MY crit is low, would it just be better to move those talents to DoW or perhaps stance mastery? I can constantly rely on DoW or SM but I cannot ever rely on Wrecking Crew to proc.

I find both DoW and Tactical Mastery to be very mediocre talents from an Arms PvP perspective. DoW isn't terrible but reduced rage cost on a few abilities just isn't as important as 10% damage increase even if the proc rate isn't that great. If you aren't spamming Heroic Strike when you shouldn't be then rage generation as Arms is decent especially with Charge, Deadly Calm and Bladestorm so DoW just doesn't seem as good to me (keeping in mind the changes to the ability from Wrath days making it much less useful since 4.0.1). As for Tactical Mastery Bliz is clearly taking stance dancing out of the equation with loss of intercept, spell reflect nerf & upcoming recklessness not requiring zerg stance.

Also, I was practicing the macros and they're really helpful. Just wanted to thank you for the guide again lol. Just as an FYI, I was experimenting and I created my own macro that combines the use of Deadly Calm with Inner rage. I figured that the speed bonus to HS from Inner Rage is only useful when you have lots of rage, and you don't generate that much rage from regular strikes. So popping up both is probably something to add, what do you think?

Deadly Calm can not be used at the same time as Inner Rage, I forget when that was implemented but it has been that way for a while now; your macro is pointless =)
Deadly Calm Tooltip
2 min cooldown
For the next 10 sec, none of your abilities cost rage, but you continue to generate rage. Cannot be used during Inner Rage.

Well I'll be lol, I thought I was clever too. Well, thanks for correcting me haha. Is there really any point to Inner Rage then?

And one more question. How useful is execute? When you have your enemy down to low health, where does the priority for execute fit in? Should I use it at all? I was also going to ask if I should switch to Berserker Stance during that period of time when execute is up for that extra damage. What are your thoughts?
06/06/2011 03:47 PMPosted by Squirrelnut
CS (if plate wearer)

not sure about this, CS still does 150% weapon damage so forgoing that initial damage and the increase to other abilities against any target is questionable.
@ Moveover: You can either use a macro with "/equipslot 16 yourweapon" or you can use a macro with "/equipset yoursetname" that has the weapons you want equipped in it. Either way works fine.

well cause right now i have:
#showtooltip Spell Reflection
/equipslot 17 (shield)
/equipslot 16 (one hander)
/cast Spell Relfection

my issue is when i press it to get out my shield and one hander i have to press my bind 2 times, and then to cast sr i have to press it 3 times, just wondering if im doing anything wrong..
06/09/2011 11:29 AMPosted by Bodybaggins
Is there really any point to Inner Rage then?

Not really in current Arms PvP, I have it on my bar but I never use it; it is simply way too easy to get rage deprived

06/09/2011 11:29 AMPosted by Bodybaggins
And one more question. How useful is execute?

As with almost everything in PvP it is fairly situational. Basically if you have someone low enough for Execute to become active I will generally use it for a nice burst if you have any excess rage. However, it really depends on what you are trying to kill (rogue for example will try to avoid as much as possible before dying so Overpower can be very useful). Basically I tend to Execute when I have a lot of rage and if it doesn't kill them I will continue to MS/OP but will use Execute instead of Slam.

With regard to Spell Reflect macro question

my issue is when i press it to get out my shield and one hander i have to press my bind 2 times, and then to cast sr i have to press it 3 times, just wondering if im doing anything wrong..

Sounds like the easiest approach for your particular situation would be to have 2 gear sets:
Arms PvP w 2hander equipped
Arms PvP w shield & 1 hander equipped

You would then use a spell reflect macro:
#showtooltip Spell Reflection
/cast [stance:1/2,equipped:Shields] Spell Reflection; [stance:3] Defensive Stance
/stopmacro [equipped: Shields]
equipset pvpswordshieldsetname

And after you finish reflecting use your re-equip macro:
#showtooltip Battle Stance
/cast Battle Stance
/equipset twohandsetname
06/09/2011 11:43 AMPosted by Abrâhms
CS (if plate wearer)

not sure about this, CS still does 150% weapon damage so forgoing that initial damage and the increase to other abilities against any target is questionable.

In response to your question I thought I would quote some numbers I saw in another thread:

Let's look at a lvl 85 target with 33k armor (basically BiS plate tank with shield) and another with 10k Armor (roughly cloth iirc) and see how 50% Armor Ignore CS would effect them. 33k Armor is 55.86% physical reduction with half being 38.76% physical reduction. 10k armor is good for 27.72% physical reduction with half giving 16.09% physical reduction. Let's use a 35k raw damage attack and see how each plays out with 50% CS.

33k Armor:
35000 * (1 - .5586) = 15449
35000 * (1 - .3876) = 21434

10k Armor:
35000 * (1 - .2772) = 25298
35000 * (1 - .1609) = 29368

What this means is that going from 33k armor down to 16.5k armor increases damage against the heavily geared plate tank by 38.74%. Going from 10k armor down to 5k armor increases the damage the clothie takes by 16.09%.

As you can see CS will still be worth using against heavily armor targets. It will in fact increase damage more against a heavily geared target than it would against a clothie.

So with that being said, you are deciding whether it is worth a GCD which could be used on MS/OP/Slam to instead use CS which doesn't hit all that hard and only reduces a clothie's mitigation by around 16%. I am sure someone along the lines has created a graph of the reduction to damage mitigation based on player's armor but I generally just go with the simple approach:
    - Is it a plate wearer? Use CS
    - Is it a mail wearer? Can use CS or not, minor difference either way
    - Is it less then mail wearer? Ignore CS for higher damage abilities since the reduction to their armor isn't worth the GCD

Whether my simplified approach is optimal or not hopefully someone will take the time to grab some math to see =)
Sounds like the easiest approach for your particular situation would be to have 2 gear sets:
Arms PvP w 2hander equipped
Arms PvP w shield & 1 hander equipped

You would then use a spell reflect macro:

#showtooltip Spell Reflection/cast [stance:1/2,equipped:Shields] Spell Reflection; [stance:3] Defensive Stance/stopmacro [equipped: Shields]/stopcastingequipset pvpswordshieldsetname

And after you finish reflecting use your re-equip macro:

#showtooltip Battle Stance/cast Battle Stance/equipset twohandsetname

so where it says "shields" i put the shield name there? because i tried it and it didnt work
No, if you are using the "equipset" version of the macro all you need to do is replace the set name in the macro. So it would be:
#showtooltip Spell Reflection
/cast [stance:1/2,equipped:Shields] Spell Reflection; [stance:3] Defensive Stance
/stopmacro [equipped: Shields]

Leave exactly as it is shown here, all you replace is the bold set name with yours. The set should have your 1 hander and shield equipped in it already so you don't need to use those item names anywhere in the macro.
k thanks ill try again
works great thanks!
Glad to hear it
VERY nice guide. Good work.
Keep the questions / suggestions coming and I will update the original topic to help others that might be looking for the same info
Great guide so far. Covers the basics and then some, it'll definitely help future and current warriors. I know I learned something.

This is a more advanced question, though. I see you ran WLS, which is a team I wanted to run, but has been hard due to conflicting schedules between the warlock and shaman. I'm curious on some basic strategies for the team, since the warlock seems to not be pulling sufficient damage. Should I be looking for another warlock or am I doing something wrong? I feel he dies far too quickly and is shut down far too easily.
Bookmarking great thread for future read.
First of all, thank you for the guild.. It'll help me a lot.

I just have a couple of question:

Is Battle Trance not that good or is Arms have so much excess rage it's worthless?

You mention Slam having low crit chance. Is its crit chance different from the one in the character sheet?
06/10/2011 05:56 PMPosted by Han
the warlock seems to not be pulling sufficient damage. Should I be looking for another warlock or am I doing something wrong? I feel he dies far too quickly and is shut down far too easily.

That is a tough one to answer since it can REALLY vary depending on map and the comp you face. Lock can do a TON of damage on some comps but if they face something like lock/mage/shammy they won't be able to do hardly anything because they will get focus sheared, spell-locked and dispelled constantly. As for survivability that is also very map reliant as long as he isn't being stupid, need to coordinate good port positions for each map. Usually it is just a matter of practice and team synergy more then anything else.

I see you ran WLS
I'm curious on some basic strategies for the team

That is definitely a separate question. WLS is a very viable comp, you don't see it as much as TSG because it isn't as faceroll to play and requires some decent team coordination. It is hard to describe 'basic strategies' because our approach is different for basically every comp we face.

With that being said I'll try to give you some tips on a few common comps: TSG, RMP & KFC
WLS - Warrior, Lock, Shammy
Continued ...

    vs TSG (Warrior/FDK/HPally)
      - The opener is HUGE on this encounter or to be more exact, the prevention of their opener.
      - Until 4.2 (incoming F DK nerfs) this is one of the most over-powered, easy to play and hardest to stop comps there is simply due to the fact that they put out un-healable damage combined with excellent burst CC (DG, Strangulate, HC, Throwdown, Intimidating Shout, etc) along with being very difficult to peel
      - Basically as WLS we have to survive the first 30 seconds and keep in mind that 95% of the time they will be trying to zerg our healer. They may open on someone else to prevent LoS kiting and tempt wasted cooldowns but you have a safe bet they will likely hot swap to your healer especially if you all group up enough for 1 hungering cold to catch all 3 of you.
      - If you can survive the first 30 seconds without burning virtually all of your team's CDs and can start getting dots rolling and CC training the Holy Pally you will likely win
      - The opener prevention is a combination of map luck plus your Warrior knowing what he is doing. Once they start their unhealable burst on your healer they can basically lock him down and kill him so it is vital for your warrior to rush out and meet them, spam Piercing Howl to slow them both and then start alternating peels between the two. Basically if both the Warrior and the FrostDK reach your healer at the same time and pop CDs they do insane damage and can make themselves almost unpeelable and combined with Strang your healer will probably get roffled.
      - The goal against TSG is to keep at LEAST 1 of their DPS slowed at all times, the Pally can only throw freedom on one of them. If you can keep the two mostly separated their chances diminish very quickly as they rely on both DPS zerging a healer. At some point they will both be on your healer but your lock should rotate fears (once AMS is gone) and the Warrior should be using a combination of imp hamstring/intervene/disarm/throwdown/demo shout/thunderclap/charge on cd.
      - Also keep in mind one of the best peels you can do is force them to pay attention to someone besides your healer. Have your Warrior pop recklessness, sweeping strikes, bladestorm and either the Warrior is forced to go defensive for a disarm or they will both be low/near death when it ends.
      - As long as you can prevent them from tunneling a kill during their initial burst, cds & pally bubble then you should be able to win.
      - If they go after your Lock they are stupid and you should be fine as long as he utilized a decent port location and coordinates with your healer (make sure you can't be LoS death gripped as soon as you port)
      - If they go after your Warrior they are also stupid because your healer should be able to heal through most of it, if he gets in trouble he can always go sword/board defensive and shield wall if need be. They shouldn't be able to burst through his defensive CDs before you can start swapping peels from your lock once AMS/Bladestorm/etc are used up
      - They depend on killing you quickly because although a Holy Pally is great for freedom and huge burst heals they are the single most CCable healer and will quickly fall behind after their initial rush
      - Keep dots rolling on everyone, call out CC's and target switches and rely on your Warrior doing his job. Defeating TSG is largely up to your Warrior with slows, stuns, disarms, etc because they can ignore the lock until further in the fight when their CDs have been used.
      Interesting Tidbits:
        - Disarming the DK is a great choice, they rarely have a weapon chain on so it lasts a while and if you are focusing him down it prevents Death Strike spam
        - Be sure to have a buff tracker so you can easily see when the DK has IBF up, it is really important not to waste your throwdown or charge stun when he is stun-immune

WLS - Warrior, Lock, Shammy
Continued ...

    vs RMP (Rogue/FMage/Priest)
      - This is usually an interesting fight and can be very close if they coordinate well. The amount of CC from this team is REALLY annoying after a while but we have had fairly good experience at beating it.
      - Who they focus usually determines how this fight goes but most of the time they will be going after your Warrior, it is way too easy to peel & put pressure on them if they go after anyone else.
      - Similar to TSG, preventing their opener is HUGE against this comp because they can either kill you or have you playing defensive catch-up most of the match if you let them get it off how they want.
      - From the Warrior perspective it is helpful to be aggressive at the start, go out and get in combat rushing someone if you can and just be prepared to intervene back as fast as possible to try to get your healer in combat. If they open on you and try to start a fat burst try to break the initial stun with Bladestorm (it is bugged and lets you break a stun if you have enough rage to use it within the first half a second of the stun on you), if you can't get it off then it may be worthwhile to trinket early if they have you in a full stunlock + cloud + mage burst. Be sure to Heroic Leap out of the cloud if you can't intervene or just as useful charge anyone you can to get out and then intervene back to your healer.
      - Basically our most common approach to this fight is to play cat and mouse with your Warrior constantly chasing the mage and cutting him in half if he reaches him. This prevents a lot of what the mage can do since he has to keep running for his life and when combined with Shammy focus shears & warlock counterspell you make the mage's life miserable if your Shammy is quick with dispels on your Warrior being rooted.
      - Keep in mind chasing a mage with your back to a rogue is BAAAAD, always strafe run and be DPSing the rogue on the way to the mage, it greatly increases the pressure the priest has to heal through, reduces the damage you take and still keeps you after the mage / allows switches.
      - If we can force some cooldowns to be used we will hot-swap onto someone and go for a kill, most frequently that person will be the priest because Warriors simply flat out destroy priests and he should be below half health from your lock dots rolling while you guys DPS the mage & rogue. Priests have very few ways to get away and once the mage/rogue peels have been used or they are CCed then all the priest can do is use inner focus (white glow and prevents them from being interrupted) and pray you don't have Throwdown up (Stun him and waste his inner focus).
      - Make sure the lock is rotating fears on all 3 combined with your Shammy's hex and allow your Warrior to use most of his CDs defensively (spell reflect, shield wall, charge & throwdown) until you are ready to switch for a kill. They shouldn't be able to do enough damage to get a kill unless they are both on a target so as long as the Warrior can charge to interupt mage casts & throwdown/disarm the rogue to prevent bursts when his healer is CCed he should be ok.
      - Biggest thing to watch out for is their combo of a Deepfreeze into a Ring on your Shammy, this is usually a good time to use defensive CDs / trinket because Frost Mage can not only put out amazing CC for control (follow the ring with sheeps) but they do INSANE burst when they are able to free-cast when your Warrior is rooted and your Shammy is CCed.
      Interesting Tidbits:
        - When fighting RMP your Bladestorm is basically like a defensive cooldown if the rogue doesn't have his disarm available because it allows you to slap the mage around and he will run for his life instead of casting whether he is attacking you or someone else
        - When chasing the mage around your lock will likely get in trouble from time to time, make sure to make good use of your charge stun (should be talented to stun 2 people if someone else is close) it should be enough to help your lock kite the rogue fairly well

WLS - Warrior, Lock, Shammy
Continued ...

    vs KFC (Warrior or Frost DK/Hunter/Healer)
      - This used to be a more dangerous comp pre-4.1 but the new version with a Frost DK or even still a good Warrior can be interesting
      - Your approach to fighting this comp will be greatly impacted by what map it is because Hunters are the single most important kite targets in the game in my opinion.
      - If there is any sort of box or pillar you generally just dot everything up and DPS the Warrior while cleaving the hunter pet and LoSing the hunter. If his pet ever gets behind the pillar or gets low in health you can Imp Hamstring root it and blow it up, a hunter with a dead pet is a dead hunter.
      - Biggest thing to watch out for against this comp is the insane amount of CC the hunter can put out on your healer. Most hunters you face will be Marksman in which case they can scatter -> trap and if they use their CD -> scatter -> trap again. That amount of time for your healer to be CCed while they blow one of your DPS up can be deadly so the #1 THING TO DO IS PREVENT TRAPS!!
      - You have a few ways of preventing their traps:
        - Shammy can instantly trinket the scatter and hope he doesn't happen to run into the trap through bad RNG (generally a bad choice)
        - Lock can instantly spell-lock the hunter, seems to prevent them from doing the trap
        - Lock can stay close to your healer so that as soon as he calls out 'scatter' the lock runs onto him to eat the trap
        - Warrior can keep decent LoS with the Shammy so that as soon as he calls out 'scatter' he can intervene and hopefully eat the trap

      - Much of what KFC tries to do is eliminated if you get good at wasting their traps. They can do some good burst but with rotating fears + disarm + throwdown you should be OK if your Shammy isn't eating full duration traps.
      - You will sometimes run into Beast Master hunters, if you do it is REALLY important to LoS and blow his stupid pet up. They rely on burst > CC so you don't have to worry about silencing shot and they usually won't have a pet that roots as well because they prefer to take the one that gives them a damage buff. What you DO have to worry about is some crazy spike damage from a BM KFC team.
      - Don't be afraid to reset agains KFC, every time you can force them to use a deterrence you are doing well and there is nothing wrong with going LoS for a bit to bring everyone back up to full. You have the advantage of dots ticking non-stop and once the hunters deterrences are gone or if their pet dies you can basically just train him till he dies
      Interesting Tidbits:
        - Don't forget, killing a hunter pet gives your Warrior Victory Rush. Nothing is funnier then having it get down to a 1v1 with your Warrior near death vs their hunter and have him kill the hunter pet, victory rush and laugh as the hunter says WTF and dies as you finish him off.

Basically everything in Arena is situational but as you duel/2v2/3v3 more and more you start to see a lot of similarities and you know who you want to go after as soon as you see what the other team's comp is. Practice makes perfect.
06/10/2011 06:25 PMPosted by Hotcell
Is Battle Trance not that good or is Arms have so much excess rage it's worthless?

No it is good, we simply need other talents more (self heals, damage increase, etc) so it generally doesn't go in an Arms PvP Warrior's spec like it would in an Arms PvE Warrior's spec

You mention Slam having low crit chance. Is its crit chance different from the one in the character sheet?

On a Target Dummy I did some WoL parse review testing with nothing but self buffs and no Recklessness and my Slams Crit SUBSTANTIALLY fewer times then MS or OP. Not entirely sure why that would be but I do take Glyph of Bladestorm > Glyph of Slam because I find it more useful so that hurts my Slam crit chance a bit.

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