Leveling needs more thought.

General Discussion
Post Limit:
Prev 1 13 14 15 17 Next
I really really really loved Hyjal questing area the best of the entire game.. It made me feel some what important to my WoW and not just mindless kill X and return to Y or talk to X so you can go talk to another X. If the entire games questing would be like hyjals.. id be really happy but gotta keep alot of people happy and its hard to do so.. really looking forward to improved questing areas.
For truly new players, that don't have access to anybody to give them guidance on where to look for specific advice, the pure basics offer enough challenge to learn without adding a layer of complexity that might frighten away lots of people.

Can you truly imagine a level 30 dungeon that offered the challenge of the Corla encounter (since you mentioned it) in a 5 man group of brand new players that had never encountered that mechanic?

The reason it was fun for you is likely because somebody described the exact mechanics to you (stand in beam til 80 stacks, then move out and let it drop, repeat) and you learned them and succeeded. A group of level appropriate brand new players with no outside resources to explain the mechanics to them would likely wipe 100 times wondering how to defeat those big bastards that spawned, before it dawned on any of them to stand in the beam, then another 100 times of wiping til somebody figured out that you had to move out at 80 then come back in, it would be so frustrating that nobody would do it.

I'm guessing you had the luxury of leveling with groups that already knew enough about the encounters from previous forays that what to you seems like trivial child's play, would have actually been a nightmare if several of them didn't know the mechanics already.

Blizzard has rightfully lowered the bar to make the leveling experience easy enough that I can introduce friends to this truly wonderful game, and let them level with a few key pieces of advice along the way, and I don't have to explain difficult mechanics to them until they are sufficiently comfortable to handle it.

How many rogues have you seen wearing spirit/intellect gear at level 40? A lot, and to expect a group full of people that are wearing the wrong gear for the wrong reasons have to also learn that fire is likely a bad thing to stand in..... well.... the 5 levels where you actually have the bulk of your abilities and have shown sufficient patience to grind through the process should be enough to teach you the in's and outs of your chosen class.

I will say that it is interesting to hear this perspective from a new player, typically it is the old school elitists that cry "the game is too easy now, back in MY day..."
60-68 is terrible (my two cents). I started during Wrath so go ahead and hate but leveling in Burning Crusade in my opinion is just plain god awful. Yet the thing is that I can't put my finger on it. Is it the environment? The mood of the story\settings? The enemies? The COLORS!? Either way, any character I've leveled after this one I usually just BG\Dungeon grind and bet level capped friends to power level me through dungeons.

One of the reasons that I really like question in the Dragonblight is because of how many group quests there are. There's like 10 different ones there. They're group quests because they require you to kill an elite boss mob. I like them because I like to solo them instead of getting a group for them.

Sure some classes have an easier time than others (like I was actually able to solo that 5 man frost dragon and some of the Amphitheater of Anguish quests on my Demo lock), but most of the time for most of the quests I'm able to figure out a way to use my class' mechanics to solo the quest.

It's not the fastest way to level, but it's a lot more personally rewarding than mowing down 1,000s of faceless mobs. I just wish there were more opportunities like that.


Boom, boom, boom, entangle, back up, repeat...
This is a cool discussion. Thanks for starting it. :)


I don't mean that 1-79 was absolutely awful, and that I didn't have fun and wanted to quit the game. That is hardly the case. However, the grind from 1-79 lacks any mechanics to make dungeons fun, and the questing itself isn't all that great.


While I wouldn't say that leveling from 1-79 is totally "grindy" (I actually had and continue to have a lot of fun running through those zones), I can definitely see your argument. I mean, a lot of current dungeon mechanics are fun, right? They make you analyze the world around you and adapt changing scenarios, sort of like a puzzle. At first glance, having that kind of gameplay accompany you all the way from lower level quest zones to end-game dungeon content seems like it'd be amazing. But that's just at first glance. There's a lot to be said for keeping the leveling process as seamless and straightforward as possible.

For a lot of players, the goal of World of Warcraft is to meet some benchmark, things like leveling up, getting gear, increasing their character's potency, and/or defeating end-game raid content. While questing may be enjoyable activity in its own right for some (like you!), there's definitely a portion of the population where it's really more of a means to end -- a way of achieving those other goals more quickly or with greater efficiency -- and that's an important fact for us to keep in mind.

It's not that quests aren't important; on the contrary, they're a critical part of the game, and we'll continue to work towards making them even more epic and fun. It's just that if we make quests too challenging or too complicated, especially during the leveling process, we run the risk of creating situations where players might become frustrated and feel like they're being forced into a style of gameplay that isn't exactly their cup of PvE.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't some sort of balance that can be struck, where we're able to create quests that evoke the fun of dungeon encounters, but never really reach that point where they become tedious or difficult (we totally hear your feedback on that). It's a matter of appealing to as many players as possible and making sure that they're engaged, but not overwhelmed with over-the-top challenge as they level up -- which can be tricky, especially when you have such a wide variety of playstyles and opinions to consider.

Even so, incorporating more dynamic mechanics into questing and using quests as a teaching method is something we'd like to do for future content. Whether or not we should invest the time and resources into revamping existing content, though...well, that's something that we'd have to weigh very carefully, as it would require us to focus our attention away from creating new things.


Only thing I dont like about dungeons is there is no real "easing" your way up into difficulty.

It seems to go like this:

RFC to WOTLK 80 instances- Mass slaughterfest. Boss mechanics are generally irrelevant and the only way you'll notice anything is if you are the healer or tank.

Cata dungeons have mechanics you have to pay attention to.

Other then that it feels as the difficulty bar does not go up until your near the end of the leveling spectrum in dungeons. Quests are much like the same simply because of how character growth is like between 80-85.
honestly i miss raiding enemy faction cities. no one does it anymore and i dont know why? And they could have more pvp things. And i dont mean new Battle Grounds. I mean like having a goal wher you raid a city but not just kill the king, but kill half the people in the city? idk
It's just that if we make quests too challenging or too complicated, especially during the leveling process, we run the risk of creating situations where players might become frustrated and feel like they're being forced into a style of gameplay that isn't exactly their cup of PvE.


I'm reading that as you want quests to be interesting but easy and fast to get people to endgame.


Yes and no. When designing quests, it's important for us to keep in mind all the different kinds of players that'll play through them and what their interests might be. For example, some World of Warcraft players just want to get to max level as quickly as they can. That's a totally valid style of play, so we try to make sure that quests don't arbitrarily complicate or impede the leveling process.

That's just one thing we consider, though. We know that there are a lot of players who absolutely love questing -- quest chains, daily quests, low level quests, all of it. (Loremasters, represent! \o/) And we absolutely want to appeal to that group of players, too. With respect to the OP's suggestions, our concern is that, if we implement quests that are too challenging or too similar to dungeon content, then we risk forcing players into roles and types of gameplay that they may not appreciate. Not everyone likes running dungeons or feeling pressured by having to learn encounter mechanics, so overloading quest content with those kind of scenarios may not be the best course of action.

Could we do more to vary up the kinds of quests you play through, though? Sure. We feel that we can still provide a streamlined, straightforward questing experience without always relying on the simple "collect this," "kill that," "okay, now kill that again, and then be a good sport and collect a variety of gross things from their corpses" objectives that everyone has come to love. Those kinds of quests certainly have their place and will likely remain a staple in World of Warcraft, but we're trying some new things with the 4.2 daily areas that we hope players will enjoy, and want to continue that trend with future content, as well.
As sort of a side note, if any of you missed our last Dev Watercooler, "Content for the Casual 85," I'd definitely recommend checking it out. In it, lead quest designer Dave "Fargo" Kosak" delves into the goals and hurdles of quest creation at end-game: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2913878#blog

While the topic of this discussion is slightly different, it still addresses a lot of the challenges and intentions behind quests in World of Warcraft, and how our designers are looking to improve the experience going forward.
I love the new questing, but as a player who's been around a few years, my greatest sadness, and disappointment, was the removal of the truly epic quest chains. What we got in return was the current incarnation of the class specific quests and nothing more. The rewards are nice, but the quests are simply no replacement for what they used to be: a true challenge in using all your classes skills to best overcome what was tossed your way.

The dungeon set 1 -> 2 quest chain was something I will never forget, nor getting my pally and lock mounts. And I can't forget the Ravenlord/Druid epic flight chain.

I really never understood their removal. They could have remained optional for those that adored questing and challenge, and there are a lot of us out there. Why not update those quests for Cat and give them back to us? As long as they're optional chains, no one is ever forced into doing them, but they're still there to enjoy. :)
06/15/2011 07:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
That's just one thing we consider, though. We know that there are a lot of players who absolutely love questing -- quest chains, daily quests, low level quests, all of it. (Loremasters, represent! \o/)


Yes. I'm among those that <3 doing quests and quest chains. I myself earned "The Loremaster" achievement long before Cataclysm being released. Once Cataclysm was out, It was very interesting going through every zone in-game once again questing.

I found the new quests enjoyable and fun to do. The new ones like in the Darkspear Troll's new starting area was very interesting to see on this character. However, The place where you start questing as a Goblin was fun to explore too!

I was surprised though that those who had "The Loremaster" achievement got to keep their titles and tabard reward. I thought we had it removed until I checked my achievement pages and my list of titles.

Not only did the new quests help me in my reputation grind for all of the Steamwheedle Cartel in-game to exalted status, but it also helped me understand the Lore within this game further. =)

06/15/2011 07:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
but we're trying some new things with the 4.2 daily areas that we hope players will enjoy, and want to continue that trend with future content, as well.


So I presume a new kind of way to do daily quests will be added in Patch 4.2? I understand there will be phasing for each player as they progress within this new daily quest hub, But if there is going to be a new style introduced in-game to quest, I'm up to try it out!

New ways to quest in this game would be awesome and make this game sound like changes are in the works! =) Hopefully if players like these changes at the new questing hub in Patch 4.2, We will see such changes in lower level areas too. =)
As no doubt many people have already said, the main problem I see at the moment with leveling is how little it teaches you of how to actually play. Besides that one quest at level 6 or something which makes you use a whole 1 ability of whatever class you are, there's literally nothing. It's just too easy to faceroll your way to 80-85 without learning anything besides press damage button x, and y if you're fortunate.

While I don't believe dungeons/quests while leveling should be unnecessarily tedious/difficult/annoying, I still think something desperately needs to be done to 'train' newer players how to play in some way.

For example, I was in Lost City today on my mage.. 130k hp paladin tank, didn't use HotR a single time on trash until the 5th pull, after I'd told him about 100x to kindly use it. Naturally, aggro was utterly woeful, and he was getting insulted left right and center by all members of the party bar me - I spent most of the run attempting to get them to give him a break.

What I'm trying to say is that I hardly blame him. Not everyone picks things up in a flash. Being (not forced) but... prodded towards having to learn to play to a slightly higher level would benefit all, in my opinion..
game is no longer fun. good job guys good job
06/15/2011 07:12 PMPosted by Lylirra
(Loremasters, represent! \o/)


Yes!

/dwarfbootydance
This is a cool discussion. Thanks for starting it. :)


I don't mean that 1-79 was absolutely awful, and that I didn't have fun and wanted to quit the game. That is hardly the case. However, the grind from 1-79 lacks any mechanics to make dungeons fun, and the questing itself isn't all that great.


While I wouldn't say that leveling from 1-79 is totally "grindy" (I actually had and continue to have a lot of fun running through those zones), I can definitely see your argument. I mean, a lot of current dungeon mechanics are fun, right? They make you analyze the world around you and adapt changing scenarios, sort of like a puzzle. At first glance, having that kind of gameplay accompany you all the way from lower level quest zones to end-game dungeon content seems like it'd be amazing. But that's just at first glance. There's a lot to be said for keeping the leveling process as seamless and straightforward as possible.

For a lot of players, the goal of World of Warcraft is to meet some benchmark, things like leveling up, getting gear, increasing their character's potency, and/or defeating end-game raid content. While questing may be enjoyable activity in its own right for some (like you!), there's definitely a portion of the population where it's really more of a means to end -- a way of achieving those other goals more quickly or with greater efficiency -- and that's an important fact for us to keep in mind.

It's not that quests aren't important; on the contrary, they're a critical part of the game, and we'll continue to work towards making them even more epic and fun. It's just that if we make quests too challenging or too complicated, especially during the leveling process, we run the risk of creating situations where players might become frustrated and feel like they're being forced into a style of gameplay that isn't exactly their cup of PvE.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't some sort of balance that can be struck, where we're able to create quests that evoke the fun of dungeon encounters, but never really reach that point where they become tedious or difficult (we totally hear your feedback on that). It's a matter of appealing to as many players as possible and making sure that they're engaged, but not overwhelmed with over-the-top challenge as they level up -- which can be tricky, especially when you have such a wide variety of playstyles and opinions to consider.

Even so, incorporating more dynamic mechanics into questing and using quests as a teaching method is something we'd like to do for future content. Whether or not we should invest the time and resources into revamping existing content, though...well, that's something that we'd have to weigh very carefully, as it would require us to focus our attention away from creating new things.


The OP was talking about 1-79 dungeons and the fact that you can clear them with your monitor off, using /follow and continuously pressing 1.



06/09/2011 07:14 PMPosted by Lylirra
For a lot of players, the goal of World of Warcraft is to meet some benchmark, things like leveling up, getting gear, increasing their character's potency, and/or defeating end-game raid content. While questing may be enjoyable activity in its own right for some (like you!), there's definitely a portion of the population where it's really more of a means to end


I'd say it's safe to assume the goal of the majority of players is to have fun.. This type of thinking is the reason Cata has flopped so incredibly hard. Which, I believe, is the OPs point.

"Let's just get everyone to 85. Leave out any clever mechanics, challenges, etc. Just let them get there as easy as possible and the real game begins at 85." This makes leveling pretty pointless to begin with and this line of thinking may as well remove levels all together.

It's also very bad for Cata because once you've allowed players to quickly reach level cap (and yes, its extremely fast - Even without BoA), without any challenges along the way this new player is met with currently 1 tier of content to play, which is going to be 100x more challenging than anything they've experienced and they will face the wrath of other players when they are no longer allowed to completely ignore mechanics.

Loads of super, insanely easy content followed by a single tier of immensely more difficult content is going to be a massive turnoff for new players and is a likely result of low customer retention on new clients.

I think the staff at blizzard as a whole has truly lost sight of what genre they are even in with WoW. Many players, new and veteran alike, are drawn to this genre, not to "beat the game" (because most know these games never end), but to have fun and enjoy the JOURNEY.
This is a cool discussion. Thanks for starting it. :)




While I wouldn't say that leveling from 1-79 is totally "grindy" (I actually had and continue to have a lot of fun running through those zones), I can definitely see your argument. I mean, a lot of current dungeon mechanics are fun, right? They make you analyze the world around you and adapt changing scenarios, sort of like a puzzle. At first glance, having that kind of gameplay accompany you all the way from lower level quest zones to end-game dungeon content seems like it'd be amazing. But that's just at first glance. There's a lot to be said for keeping the leveling process as seamless and straightforward as possible.

For a lot of players, the goal of World of Warcraft is to meet some benchmark, things like leveling up, getting gear, increasing their character's potency, and/or defeating end-game raid content. While questing may be enjoyable activity in its own right for some (like you!), there's definitely a portion of the population where it's really more of a means to end -- a way of achieving those other goals more quickly or with greater efficiency -- and that's an important fact for us to keep in mind.

It's not that quests aren't important; on the contrary, they're a critical part of the game, and we'll continue to work towards making them even more epic and fun. It's just that if we make quests too challenging or too complicated, especially during the leveling process, we run the risk of creating situations where players might become frustrated and feel like they're being forced into a style of gameplay that isn't exactly their cup of PvE.

Now, that doesn't mean there isn't some sort of balance that can be struck, where we're able to create quests that evoke the fun of dungeon encounters, but never really reach that point where they become tedious or difficult (we totally hear your feedback on that). It's a matter of appealing to as many players as possible and making sure that they're engaged, but not overwhelmed with over-the-top challenge as they level up -- which can be tricky, especially when you have such a wide variety of playstyles and opinions to consider.

Even so, incorporating more dynamic mechanics into questing and using quests as a teaching method is something we'd like to do for future content. Whether or not we should invest the time and resources into revamping existing content, though...well, that's something that we'd have to weigh very carefully, as it would require us to focus our attention away from creating new things.


The OP was talking about 1-79 dungeons and the fact that you can clear them with your monitor off, using /follow and continuously pressing 1.



06/09/2011 07:14 PMPosted by Lylirra
For a lot of players, the goal of World of Warcraft is to meet some benchmark, things like leveling up, getting gear, increasing their character's potency, and/or defeating end-game raid content. While questing may be enjoyable activity in its own right for some (like you!), there's definitely a portion of the population where it's really more of a means to end


I'd say it's safe to assume the goal of the majority of players is to have fun.. This type of thinking is the reason Cata has flopped so incredibly hard. Which, I believe, is the OPs point.

"Let's just get everyone to 85. Leave out any clever mechanics, challenges, etc. Just let them get there as easy as possible and the real game begins at 85." This makes leveling pretty pointless to begin with and this line of thinking may as well remove levels all together.

It's also very bad for Cata because once you've allowed players to quickly reach level cap (and yes, its extremely fast - Even without BoA), without any challenges along the way this new player is met with currently 1 tier of content to play, which is going to be 100x more challenging than anything they've experienced and they will face the wrath of other players when they are no longer allowed to completely ignore mechanics.

Loads of super, insanely easy content followed by a single tier of immensely more difficult content is going to be a massive turnoff for new players and is a likely result of low customer retention on new clients.

I think the staff at blizzard as a whole has truly lost sight of what genre they are even in with WoW. Many players, new and veteran alike, are drawn to this genre, not to "beat the game" (because most know these games never end), but to have fun and enjoy the JOURNEY.


I think you have a great point here. I like the idea of longer, maybe more complex quests in place of short repetitive quests just for the sake of feeling like you're moving through your levels quickly. One of the great things about WoW as it is, is that you can level any way you prefer, be it PvP, dungeons, or questing. So in that sense, why not make it so that those who just want to power level through everything can do so efficiently by spamming the LFD tool (I'm just getting into the new 1-60 experience, so forgive me if it is this way already), and then really flesh out questing.

By fleshing out questing, I'm talking make it almost like a single player RPG experience. The best example I can point to is what I'm seeing with the new legendary quest line. How cool is it to run through a phased version of The Nexus with Tarecgosa? Such an awesomely designed and thought out quest line with rich lore and only a certain percentage of people can do it? Why not expand those ideas to ALL questing. That particular part of the quest can help teach these certain aspects of end game skill, such as having to sneak around the sentries with Tarecgosa (don't body pull trash?), fighting multiple enemies at once with different abilities (learn how to read into what enemies do and prioritize, also learning how to use all your abilities and cooldowns in tight spots).

I think we're okay with the difficulty being hard enough to where we may die every now and then. If I play through a single player RPG without dying at all, it's too easy IMO. Not to mention people who are having trouble have the WoW community to get help from.

It's just a win-win situation in my mind. We get richer story telling, more engaging and innovative quests that actually involve aspects like dungeon crawling and really taking part in the story (again, think single player RPG experience) instead of just collecting things, and on top of that, newer players can be slowly and carefully led into the mechanics of the end game and their classes.

Just my two cents.

Join the Conversation