The Alliance... Human Nations... Etc.

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06/28/2011 03:54 PMPosted by Ainhin
The problem with that is that the re-establishment of Humanities kingdoms in the EK is the driving force behind the human storyline besides Arthas and The Scourge (which are now a non-factor) and Blizzard hasn't let humanity make any progress in that regard.
I've not actually seen any evidence that that's "the driving force behind the human storyline." It's what the fans want, sure, but I think that's mostly a symptom of there not being any other storyline; in absence of any other goal, they default to "take back what's ours."
I've not actually seen any evidence that that's "the driving force behind the human storyline." It's what the fans want, sure, but I think that's mostly a symptom of there not being any other storyline; in absence of any other goal, they default to "take back what's ours."


The Human "history" blurb on the character creation screen says that Humanity "seeks to rekindle it's former glory and forge a shining new future."

And the official race page on the website, it says that one of the hallmarks of humanity is its ability to rebuild.

I'd say that these are the closest thing that Humanity has to a racial goal, and that they mean "take back what they've lost."
Well damn, I actually put effort into a post that ended the first page that will never be read :(
I can't stand to be on the Alliance lately, it's all Night Elves, Draenei and Worgen... And it makes no sense.

Giant purple elves. Tentacle faced space goats. Wolf people. This isn't the Alliance we knew and loved. This is an unbelievable mix up of races who do not fit together.

Dark Age of Camelot, Everquest Online Adventures, two of many games that had multiple factions of humans that they managed to make different from eachother.

The Gilneans would have been an -awesome- addition to the Alliance WITHOUT the whole werewolf curse thing. Or maybe the curse could have been in their past, and before becoming playable they found a cure that removed the physical and most of the mental side effects. So they're these humans with an entirely different culture from Stormwind, who suffer occasionally from bouts of feral tendencies.

Gilneas would be a MILLION times more amazing if it wasn't zoned, and if it was just like Elwynn Forest / Stormwind.

As for the draenei? Did they have to be -SOO- different from the humans? Weren't they originally said to look very similar to them? Giving them lizard tails, refrigerator bodies, squid faces and hooves just seemed like too much... I really just feel like the designers got carried away and made this alien race that, in all honesty, would stick out like crazy in the streets of Stormwind.

People used to comment on how the Undead and the Blood Elves don't fit with the Horde... But I'm a hell of a lot more concerned with how cartoonish and unrealistic the new races of the Alliance are painting this game to be.

I look back at Dark Age of Camelot's factions... Hibernia, Midgard and Albion and I just think how much more realistic the races were. Even the non-human races seemed well presented and subtle, rather than distract you from the reality of this epic world, they added to it. I don't get that feeling at all in the Alliance.


On Draenei, they didn't that was all in Archenmonde who's concept art enspired the race.
So we should just have Humans, Humans and more Humans? At least the Fanged purple Elves with a Celtic culture with an amazonian twist are interesting. Fantasy doesn't just have to have only Humans. If I wanted Humans I would play the games you listed, if thats what you want then go to it.
Now I'll be the first to say that I adore the Forsaken, and love the direction their story has gone, but Gilneas and Stromgarde were both depicted as the strongest nations militarily during the second war.

I just don't see why Blizzard can't display a bit more of their military might as human nations without messing with the current direction of the story in those regions.

I understand that reasons have been given in game for the fall of Stromgarde, although I think that they deserved more credit than they were given, but Gilneas should have been portrayed as stronger than they were. How quickly did their military fall to the Worgen threat? Why did they have to rely on militia and citizens rather than an army that was said to rival that of Lordaeron and Stormwind in the WCII manual?

How many people now feel any pride for their faction playing Humans in WoW? Gilneas and Stromgarde are perfect nations for showing the strength and resilience of humanity. Humans in Warcraft used to seem as awesome as humanity in Warhammer. Now though, they just seem weak, despite the fact that lore gives them room to explore the strength of nations like Gilneas and Stromgarde.

It's the primary reason that I'm sympathetic to Alliance frustrations despite being a die hard Forsaken fan since the day WoW released.


This is correct, and I agree with everything you've posted. There's no such thing as Human pride in this expansion, since the Humans have been getting owned left right and centre. Warcraft Humans used to be badass, but ever since the Fall of Lordaeron, they've been a bunch of weaklings barely holding onto their last remaining kingdom far in the south.

And that's one of the main reasons that Humanity needs to start re-establishing its kingdoms, but even if/when that starts happening, there's still going to be a problem in the form of the Forsaken. Even if every other human kingdom is re-established and rebuilt, it's going to feel incomplete without Lordaeron, and in the lifespan of WoW, humanity is unlikely to get Lordaeron back.

At this point in time, it feels like the Scourge still won, even though it was defeated, and that the undead is a foe that humanity doesn't have any hope of overcoming.

And of course, there's the whole problem with the Forsaken consuming a large chunk of the Human storyline.
On Draenei, they didn't that was all in Archenmonde who's concept art enspired the race.
So we should just have Humans, Humans and more Humans? At least the Fanged purple Elves with a Celtic culture with an amazonian twist are interesting. Fantasy doesn't just have to have only Humans. If I wanted Humans I would play the games you listed, if thats what you want then go to it.


I think the primary reason people disagree is that they want to see the Alliance have some sort of unifying theme. The Horde, aside from the Eastern Kingdoms seems to be held together by shamanism, and overall the entirety of the Horde has had a distinctly underdog feel since vanilla.

Nothing like that seems to hold the Alliance together. The Night Elves even feel downright out of place. I don't think people are really looking to see the Alliance dominated by Human's so much as they want to see a unifying theme throughout the Alliance, and the best starting point seems to be the Alliance of WCII which is heavily Human in thematics.

Humanity doesn't necessarily have to be a boring theme. If you'd looked at all into Warhammer lore you'd see a depiction of Humanity that is every bit as strong, ruthless, and uncompromising as its enemies, and yet holds on to the nobility of Humanity. In fact, it is only the nobility of its goals that sets Humanity apart in Warhammer, in tactics, and shear brutality it is only that nobility that keeps them seperate.

I'd like to see similar themes unifying the Alliance; essentially a storyline elaborating on Uther's quote about becoming as vile as the Orcs. That's what people want to see unifying the Alliance, and that's why people look to Humanity as a starting point.
I think the Alliance already has a unifying theme...
06/28/2011 05:26 PMPosted by Aeluron
I think the Alliance already has a unifying theme...


What is it exactly? Don't get me wrong I'd love to see one. I just really see the Night Elves in their WCIII incarnation as being very different from the rest of the Alliance. I really don't see anything that bonds the Alliance as tightly as the Kalimdor Horde, and I really don't see anything that should give the Alliance player pride in their faction.
I think the Alliance is too much Human This, Human That, Humans That Way and Humans This Way. Its stale, dull and repetitive.
06/28/2011 05:34 PMPosted by Konk
I think the Alliance is too much Human This, Human That, Humans That Way and Humans This Way. Its stale, dull and repetitive.


See, I disagree. In Cataclysm especially, the Night Elves have gotten more attention than the Humans.

What's the biggest thing that the Humans have done in Cataclysm? They were thrown the villain-ball at Lost Isles and cow tipping in the Barrens.
06/28/2011 05:34 PMPosted by Konk
I think the Alliance is too much Human This, Human That, Humans That Way and Humans This Way. Its stale, dull and repetitive.



You must be playing a different game.
What's worse is I can't think of a way that the Alliance can even make a dent in the Forsaken's hold on the Northern Eastern Kingdoms thanks to gameplay mechanics.

Can't take zones away from the Horde or allow the Alliance to contest them because it'll mean that the Horde "has fewer zones."

The lore is suffering because of gameplay mechanics.
What's worse is I can't think of a way that the Alliance can even make a dent in the Forsaken's hold on the Northern Eastern Kingdoms thanks to gameplay mechanics.

Can't take zones away from the Horde or allow the Alliance to contest them because it'll mean that the Horde "has fewer zones."

The lore is suffering because of gameplay mechanics.


It always has.
What's worse is I can't think of a way that the Alliance can even make a dent in the Forsaken's hold on the Northern Eastern Kingdoms thanks to gameplay mechanics.

Can't take zones away from the Horde or allow the Alliance to contest them because it'll mean that the Horde "has fewer zones."

The lore is suffering because of gameplay mechanics.


If nothing else, I think it would feel better to have significant Human resistance from Gilneas in Silverpine. Even if it presented no change in the story of the region, I would still like to see some show of strength from these old school human nations that were so commended for their military prowess.

It just seems silly that we saw maybe 4 members of the actual Gilneas military in the Worgen starting zone. They were one of the most powerful nations on the planet, surely they didn't lose their entire army to a few Worgen.

Give me some armed resistance from Gilnean Footmen and Knights in Silverpine. Show that Gilneas isn't completely empty besides the Worgen

I'll admit I'm really just pissed because during WCII my two favorite nations were Stromgarde and Gilneas. Neither has amounted to anything. Gilneas was my last hope for Humanity in Warcraft seeming like something worthwhile.

Every one of my favorite factions in lore has been gutted besides the Forsaken :( If I'm supportive of them its because its all I've got left!
EPL and Arathin in my opinion should have gone in completley different directions.

Arathi is obvious the rebuilding of Stromgarde and return of Danath and the Eastern Kingdoms S-Barrens.

EPL should have been about the demise of the Argents strength. The plot should have been Alliance attempting to get the Argents to go Alliance while the Forsaken attempt to make them stay neutral and get some of them Horde(Because getting ther Argents to go Horde and them thinking they could do it would just be lololololololololololololololol). Both sides could use dirty tactics like framing the other side and what not, in the end the Brotherhood of the Light and many Argent members would go Alliance, some Argents would go Horde but not as many that went Alliance, and the neutral would be extremley weakoned, such as only holding onto a few areas.

The Alliance would also start the zone in an Alliance controled Try's Hand and the Forsaken would have a built up Marris Stead.
I'll admit I'm really just pissed because during WCII my two favorite nations were Stromgarde and Gilneas. Neither has amounted to anything. Gilneas was my last hope for Humanity in Warcraft seeming like something worthwhile.

Every one of my favorite factions in lore has been gutted besides the Forsaken :( If I'm supportive of them its because its all I've got left!


My favorite nation was Lordaeron, so you should be able to get a vibe of what I think of the whole situation.

I still maintain that even if Gilneas and Stromgarde are retaken, it's going to feel hollow without Lordaeron. Too much of the Alliances history is centred in Lordaeron for it to just be ignored.

It doesn't help that the tragedy of losing Lordaeron is cheapened by the Forsaken's conduct. I don't rage much, but Sylvanas' new Hallows End speech makes me rage.
My order goes like this: Stromgarde, Kul Tiras, Stormwind, Lordaeron, Gilneas, Dalaran, Alterac.

It doesn't help that the tragedy of losing Lordaeron is cheapened by the Forsaken's conduct. I don't rage much, but Sylvanas' new Hallows End speech makes me rage.
Link?
Sorry, but how can humanity forge a bright new future if they focus so heavily on a relic of the past like Lordaeron?

It's this clinging to the past and refusing to move forward that could do the most harm to them in the end. I say that this emphases on Lordaeron Lordaeron Lordaeron is what's hurting the human storyline more than anything else.

Stormwind humans, the ones we play as, barely have their own identity. I want focus on THAT.
Link?


I can't provide a link, but it's basically Sylvanas going "We suffered in life, we had our homes invaded, our families killed, and in the end, we were even denied the peace of death!" she says some Hallows End stuff and then says "Let this be a lesson to our new enemies that we will never surrender" or something along those lines.

If I find a link I'll post it.

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