Regarding Aptitude's Faction Change

Stormreaver
1 2 3 7 Next
*** PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT ***

Cheating will not be tolerated. Faction transferring with the stated intention of 'farming reputation' while also getting additional Valor Points, Loot, Achievements and Experience with the encounters is considered to be a form of cheating. While it is not in my power to strip a guild from other progression threads on other websites, I have an obligation to inform them of what has happened and take action on my own by removing the offenders. For those of you who are curious as to whom I am talking about, the following screen shots should illustrate my point quite nicely:

    Completion of Firelands (Killing Ragnaros, 6/28):
    http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/BrandonDS/WoWScrnShot_070111_031027.jpg

    Share the Pain (Baleroc, 6/30):
    http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y127/BrandonDS/WoWScrnShot_070111_031022.jpg

Since it is obviously impossible to 'resurrect' a previously killed boss and kill him again on the same week to get the achievement, and we are currently being entertained by a new group of 'Horde' players prancing around in Orgrimmar bragging about the deed, we can logically assume that a certain guilds raid lockout was 'reset' by their players electing to faction transfer. Obviously such tactics are unacceptable and have already been hot-fixed by Blizzard. Remember, wasted money can also buy you unwanted attention.


I'm sorry you feel this way. Fortunately for us a sticky on our realm forum is much less of concern than our World/US rankins on wowprogress, as is true for any Hardcore raiding guild; however, I'm not going to sit by while you single our guild out and bash us.

I'm confused at where you get that we were "cheating." Did you just make up these rules by yourself and dub them 'Law of Stormreaver?'

Valor Points: Capped on Faction Change. No benefit.
Reputation: Can be farmed from the Trash mobs that re-spawn, even after clearing the instance. No benefit from Faction Change.
Achievements: Since when is progression ranking based on Meta achievements for vanity items? No benefit.
Experience: What does it matter that we get experience on normal mode bosses that we've already killed? No benefit.
Loot: This is the only advantage that we can really obtain from a Faction Change.

In regards to the loot: It is true part of the reason we decided to Faction Change 10 our raiders was to get additional gear for our progression push. We preferred to not spout this for all to hear, but I feel this is important that we clear things up.

Blizzard has been quite clear about what guilds SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be doing with this Faction Change option. They've made it obvious they do not want guilds to take advantage of the Faction Change to skip the "pacing mechanic" of delaying Heroic attempts. This can be shown via the example of STARS getting removed from their Heroic instance and a hotfix being implemented to prevent Faction Changed players to change the raid difficulty to Heroic on the first week.

So answer me this: If they hotfixed the ability to do Heroic attempts on Faction Changed characters, why have they not implemented a hotfix to prevent them from repeating those same instances on the normal difficulty? It's a rhetorical question because the answer is trivial: They don't care.

Through this conclusion we can induce that, by Blizzards own implications, what we did was fair and not conducive to "cheating" at all. Not to mention, this feature is available to any and everyone. If you choose to not utilize it, that's your choice, your money.

Now we can look at wowprogress's rules (this is from when guilds were getting extra attempts on gated bosses in ICC/ToGC):

*See next post

There is now possibility exists to get additional attempts via faction change and Blizzard is a bit slow fixing it.
Just wanted to note that those guilds who will use it to buy advantage in heroic progression will be banned on WoWProgress.com.
So don't use the faction change service!

It will be allowed here in only one case: if Blizzard officially approves this path of buying additional attempts for real money (which I hope will never happen).


There are two things to note here. In particular, wowprogress (and I can assure you, the rest of the community) are concerned with "heroic progression," not normal modes. Second, we've already cleared up that Blizzard does not care about Faction Changed characters repeating normal mode instances, so even by wowprogress's rules, we've done nothing wrong.

Again, I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not we are on your progression forum. You've done a fine job maintaining it and I'm sure there are several individuals who appreciate your work. However, it does bother me that you down-right call my guild cheaters. You have no authority to make such claims against us and you certainly don't have the right to consider yourself more prestigious than anyone in my guild. Quite frankly, I think you're worried about the prospects of Aptitude beating Out of Line in this progression cycle. You now have something to fall back on if we beat you in the race for Heroic Ragnaros, gratz! As I stated from the beginning, we will be looking for our names on wowprogress, not your server progression thread. I just hope you realize your mistake in thinking you were somehow responsible for keeping 'tabs' on us.
I'm so excited to wake up tomorrow.
owned.
/sigh @ OoL, or any other guild who complains about normal mode progression. It simply means <expletive for "junk">.
As i stated in the thread before i dont see it as blatant cheating, but your mini-tirade and dismantlement of Hothgor was not necessary.

I dont care for pve, but its just a good use of game mechanics, like that fiasco involving rogues using certain types of bombs in ICC. I dont remember it well but i remember it.

2 Stormreaver guilds in the top 15 US (until heroic) on wowprogress, something to be proud of as a realm, i dont recall that happening ever. Last time Stormreaver got something as low as 6th was like Impervious getting world 3rd in BC?

Quite frankly, I think you're worried about the prospects of Aptitude beating Out of Line in this progression cycle.

They were used to being second fiddle to Impervious for a long time, if you do surpass them i think they'll get over it... or realm change again.

EDIT: Silly grammar is silly.
I'm sorry you feel this way. Fortunately for us a sticky on our realm forum is much less of concern than our World/US rankins on wowprogress, as is true for any Hardcore raiding guild; however, I'm not going to sit by while you single our guild out and bash us.


Your statement belies its own implied laissez-faire ethos. If you were truly ambivalent about the ramifications of your guild’s misuse of game mechanics vis-à-vis your perceived status on realm then you would have never deigned to descend from your ivory tower long enough to reply to “a sticky on our realm forum.”

Only your actions single your guild out. Name any other guilds on Stormreaver who have exploited in the same manner and I’m certain Hothgor will promptly remove them from the realm rankings. As he stated, if it was within the ambit of his authority as de facto administrator of our realm rankings to punish other guilds such as STARS then it would have already occurred.

And please do not mistake Hothgor’s post for as “bashing” your guild. That post was merely informing the denizens of the realm of the reason behind your being excluded from the rankings, in case they were unaware of the specifics of your situation. A bash would be something along the lines of “Aptitude is a guild composed exclusively of low-talent poseurs who routinely talk a big game but shut right up after failing to attain realm first at the end of any tier.” In that example, low-talent would be a slight hyperbole and, being not strictly factual, would amount to “bashing.” Exposing your cheating for all the realm to read would not qualify, however.

I'm confused at where you get that we were "cheating." Did you just make up these rules by yourself and dub them 'Law of Stormreaver?'

Valor Points: Capped on Faction Change. No benefit.
Reputation: Can be farmed from the Trash mobs that re-spawn, even after clearing the instance. No benefit from Faction Change.
Achievements: Since when is progression ranking based on Meta achievements for vanity items? No benefit.
Experience: What does it matter that we get experience on normal mode bosses that we've already killed? No benefit.
Loot: This is the only advantage that we can really obtain from a Faction Change.

In regards to the loot: It is true part of the reason we decided to Faction Change 10 our raiders was to get additional gear for our progression push. We preferred to not spout this for all to hear, but I feel this is important that we clear things up.


Since we have no way of checking I suppose we’ll have to take your word that your members were Valor point capped rather than using a second raid lockout to supplement your points in ways that were not intended like running heroics or other old content.

However, the same benefit of the doubt cannot be given for reputation farming from bosses as opposed to trash mobs. Using a second raid lockout provides you with an advantage here because farming rep off normal mode bosses is noticeably faster than killing the precious few mobs which provide rep past Honored. This allows members of your guild to vastly surpass the maximum rep per hour attainable by using the conventional method of farming trash pulls and resetting the instance. This unintended surfeit of reputation exacerbates the already serious loot inequality which stems from the second raid lockout exploit because of the ilvl 378 rewards your guild will get sooner now, as well as the ilvl 391 rewards you will get before the rest of the world later when you hit exalted earlier than intended. I suspect Blizzard will soon hotfix this just as they hotfixed people using guild battle standards to raise Avengers of Hyjal rep faster than intended.

Many websites have based progression ranking on achievements either to supplement distinctions between traditional progression order – such as in the vast majority of WotLK with Sartharion and Yogg-Saron being particularly noteworthy examples – or as their own system of ranking guild progression. Websites such as guildox.com maintain Achievement rankings, while the more popular mmo-champion.com will almost certainly announce world and US firsts for Glory of the Firelands Raider completion. Aptitude now has a proven and admitted advantage over the rest of the world in these categories.

The additional fight experience garnered from an excessive raid lockout allows Aptitude to refine strategy and master mechanics faster than guilds that follow the rules are able to. It’s incorrect to dismiss the importance of this experience when your guild still wipes on Shannox and Beth’tilac, not to mention multiple wipes on Ragnaros and Alysrazor. Multiple kills make failure to heroic mode encounters less likely because your raiders obtained a disproportionate amount of time experiencing the encounter.

cont'd
You freely admit that loot was only part of the reason members of Aptitude decided to faction change; I can only assume the other reasons were additional means of exploiting the faction changing process to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the playing field.

Blizzard has been quite clear about what guilds SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be doing with this Faction Change option. They've made it obvious they do not want guilds to take advantage of the Faction Change to skip the "pacing mechanic" of delaying Heroic attempts. This can be shown via the example of STARS getting removed from their Heroic instance and a hotfix being implemented to prevent Faction Changed players to change the raid difficulty to Heroic on the first week.

So answer me this: If they hotfixed the ability to do Heroic attempts on Faction Changed characters, why have they not implemented a hotfix to prevent them from repeating those same instances on the normal difficulty? It's a rhetorical question because the answer is trivial: They don't care.

Through this conclusion we can induce that, by Blizzards own implications, what we did was fair and not conducive to "cheating" at all. Not to mention, this feature is available to any and everyone. If you choose to not utilize it, that's your choice, your money.


Rachenlol , this is not ‘Nam. This is raiding. There are rules.

The entirety of your reasoning for why “Blizzard has been quite clear about what guilds SHOULD” be doing essentially amounts to “our accounts haven’t been actioned yet.” This is woefully inadequate logic, and quite frankly impossible as the lack of exactly analogous examples is not in and of itself an example of Blizzard validating your methodology. Unlike courts of law such as the ICC, Blizzard is not above setting rules and actioning accounts for retroactive infringement. The rules of what is and is not acceptable for raid guilds to do are ever evolving, and there are numerous examples of many of the best guilds in the world having their accounts temporarily banned or their boss kills revoked for using a game mechanic that Blizzard had not yet prohibited.

In point of fact, Blizzard has never stated in any official capacity that it is acceptable for guilds to exploit faction changing to gain an advantage over other guilds. If anything, the STARS example is far more applicable to your situation than to any other. The system STARS used to unlock heroic bosses was also available for everyone to use or not use as they saw fit, however, that did not stop Blizzard from putting a quick end to it.

I’ll pose you a rhetorical in response to your own: if Blizzard intended for people to be able to farm normal modes multiple times per week, why have they not removed or foreshortened the weekly instance lock? The answer’s clarity is matched only by its significance: because limiting access to loot is a vital aspect of Blizzard’s attempt to gate raid content. Bosses which require coordination and skill at the beginning of an expansion are often trivialized by the end, and the primary reason is gear. Attempting to circumvent this is a blatant attempt at exploiting the intent behind the entire methodology of Blizzard’s raid lockout system. If there was nothing wrong with your exploit, then why don’t more guilds faction change heroic modes every week for additional boss loot? As long as the encounter isn’t gated or limited it should be acceptable, right?

cont'd
.
Perhaps a closer look at Blizzard’s EULA will elucidate my point:

C. Rules Related to Game Play. Game play is what World of Warcraft is all about, and Blizzard strictly enforces the rules that govern game play. Blizzard considers most conduct to be part of the Game, and not harassment, so player-killing the enemies of your race and/or alliance, including gravestone and/or corpse camping, is considered a part of the Game. Because the Game is a "player vs. player" game, you should always remember to protect yourself in areas where the members of hostile races can attack you, rather than contacting Blizzard's in-game customer service representatives for help when you have been killed by an enemy of your race. Nonetheless, certain acts go beyond what is "fair" and are considered serious violations of these Terms of Use. Those acts include, but are not necessarily limited to, the following:

(i) Using or exploiting errors in design, features which have not been documented, and/or "program bugs"
to gain access that is otherwise not available, or to obtain a competitive advantage over other players;

(ii) Conduct prohibited by the EULA or elsewhere in these Terms of Use; and

(iii) Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Game.


Aptitude’s only real hope to avoid punishment is that they are not successful enough for Blizzard to take notice or care what they accomplish.

Now we can look at wowprogress's rules (this is from when guilds were getting extra attempts on gated bosses in ICC/ToGC):

There is now possibility exists to get additional attempts via faction change and Blizzard is a bit slow fixing it.
Just wanted to note that those guilds who will use it to buy advantage in heroic progression will be banned on WoWProgress.com.
So don't use the faction change service!

It will be allowed here in only one case: if Blizzard officially approves this path of buying additional attempts for real money (which I hope will never happen).



There are two things to note here. In particular, wowprogress (and I can assure you, the rest of the community) are concerned with "heroic progression," not normal modes. Second, we've already cleared up that Blizzard does not care about Faction Changed characters repeating normal mode instances, so even by wowprogress's rules, we've done nothing wrong.


I think you may have missed the most important word in that wowprogress quote, which was not “heroic”, but “buy”. As in, wowprogress.com and the rest of the World of Warcraft community are wholehearted opposed to people who use money to gain a competitive advantage over the rest of the raiding world.

cont'd
Again, I'm not particularly concerned with whether or not we are on your progression forum. You've done a fine job maintaining it and I'm sure there are several individuals who appreciate your work. However, it does bother me that you down-right call my guild cheaters. You have no authority to make such claims against us and you certainly don't have the right to consider yourself more prestigious than anyone in my guild. Quite frankly, I think you're worried about the prospects of Aptitude beating Out of Line in this progression cycle. You now have something to fall back on if we beat you in the race for Heroic Ragnaros, gratz! As I stated from the beginning, we will be looking for our names on wowprogress, not your server progression thread. I just hope you realize your mistake in thinking you were somehow responsible for keeping 'tabs' on us.


I find your hypocrisy completely galling. Not only do you continue to feign disinterest in the thread even though you posted a multi-post response to Hothgor, but you cite his lack of authority to claim what is and is not justifiable while simultaneously declaring that Blizzard must find your guild’s cheating ways to be acceptable based on circumstantial and incomplete evidence. As a part of the WoW community Hothgor has every right to voice his opinion on matters of acceptable raiding practice, whereas you have absolutely no right to claim what Blizzard can and cannot do on their own video game.

And don’t misconstrue Hothgor’s post as a sign of that Out of Line Is “worried” about Aptitude beating them. I would say the worried ones are Aptitude who apparently did not feel they would be able to compete with Out of Line – much less the rest of the world – with an equivalent amount of gear.

Besides, as you can see, I am not in OoL and I believe your exploit is a heinous miscarriage of justice. True competition is done fairly and honorably on an equivalent basis. Since Aptitude apparently believes itself to be above the rules, those of us still playing by them wouldn’t want to include Aptitude on our lowly and unimportant ranking page.

I’m in full agreement with Hothgor regarding Aptitude’s progression on normal mode rankings thus far: Mark it zero.
Impervious and OOL have never done anything of the sort. You know who has? Duality.

Didnt Impervious use a cheat in Hyjal?
+What did Duality do?
.
Hi all:

I'm not in a guild, so you'll have to correct me if I am wrong, but is this the same thing? ....

http://www.wowheadnews.com/

... "Daily quests aside, there are some even bigger exploits rumored to be happening right now that's got the PvE scene in a tizzy. The well-known guild STARS decided to kill Ragnaros like many of us did--his death is required before you can begin heroic modes, much like how ICC had the LK as a gating mechanic for heroics. Unlike the rest of us, however, they took it a step farther when right after their kill the entire guild faction transferred to reset their raid lock, forming a new guild. They've already killed some heroic bosses as supposed world firsts. Of course, the "raiding community" as a whole will not take this too seriously and the world firsts they net will most likely not be tracked, but it's a lot of money and dedication...for apparently nothing."

... or is that something different?
similar, but they got a headstart on heroic whereas Aptitude members (not whole guild) changed for extra attempts? I believe.
Hothrgor has always treated the progression thread with 100% integrity.

..like when Out of Line streamed their Sinestra kill, mysteriously being led by Riggnaros.

..Or when Out of Line lost the race to Al'Akir by almots 2 weeks and put themselves ahead of Aptitude on the page regardless.

Hothrgor has always treated the progression thread with 100% integrity.

..like when Out of Line streamed their Sinestra kill, mysteriously being led by Riggnaros.

..Or when Out of Line lost the race to Al'Akir by almots 2 weeks and put themselves ahead of Aptitude on the page regardless.


A guild can't be carried by 1 person, and according to wowprogress OOL was number 1 for tier 11 so Hothgor was correct on placing them above Aptitude. They killed the other bosses faster, so even with the slow Al'Akir kill they were fine.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum