Tier 11 Valor Point Hotfix

Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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I don't get what people QQ about this for. The fact remains that running heroic ZA/ZG is easier than raiding, however nerfed, and you can get valor capped from that already.

This is a nice quality of life change, and provides more incentive to go back to the old dungeons and help newer players, while not making it mandatory we run 12/12 every week.
Yes. Thank you, Blizzard. Now when running the T11 raids if I don't happen to get one of the drops I need at least I got a few VP toward an upgrade. Thank you!
This is all sorts of good news, thank you Blizz!
ok seriously, i dont normally post but on this topic i am going to. yea call it nerd rage or w/e floats your trolls boats how ever i am pretty sure a high population of the wow community will agree with me on this statement.I think it is complete bull#*!* that wow 95% of the time always answers the huge crys from the little kids who always make the excuse of "im only a semi hardcore raiding guild so we dont down bosses as fast" or "i only have a limited time that i can spend playing and i should be able to also get my vp caps and obtain the best gear in the game just as much as anyone else"

now for my "nerd rage" no sir, you do not deserve to have stuff handed to you over the people who accually put time and effort into doing it. If your a "semi-hardcore" raider and you cant VP cap by the end of the week then you sir are a pathetic gamer and dont deserve to call yourself one. I am a semi hardcore raider, we only raid 2 nights a week sometimes 1 night a week for only 3 hours each raid night. we dont have problems working on our bosses, plus BH give you depending how good your guild is, anywhere from needing 2-4 troll runs max, and you are telling me that you cant get that within a 7 day period?"

i dont have the time to spend many hours raiding i should have just as much right to get the high end gear as anyone else" no sir, you do not. if your playing a MMO and you want to do raiding and you cant put time into it, then guess what, you shouldnt be entitled to anything, go PvP, go run 5 mans, or set at least 1 day that you can spend in a raid each week. if you cant do it then maybe you should really play a different game, go play runescape or something.complaining that you cant vp cap each week is seriously a joke. when they first introduced the valor and justice point system it use to be the only way to get it is the fact that you got it from raids only and your 1 daily heroic each day.

they have now given you the option to troll random or heroic random 7 times for VP repeatedly in 1 day, you can litterally VP cap in 1 day of game play, they have already given you this and you still complain? and blizzard really? you give in that crying? and here you guys sit on your offices and you cant understand why you have lost over 65,000 subscribers that one month? i mean really? honestly in my personal opinion which again is mine alone and if anyone feels they agree with me hey more power to you if you dont agree with me im sure i will see your trolls cause thats what your best at,

but put your god damn foot down blizzard, go back to how this buisness use to be ran when you first released this game, and make it challanging to people again. If they cant handle it then they need to learn the game more properly cause nothing is more annoying then when you get a pug group together on an alt, and you get a member in your raid who has the achievment and has more then enough gear needed and your sitting there wondering how hes dpsing just as much as most classes god damn auto attack for!!

stop handing out free gear already. thats all i have to say on this topic, to all the trollers, kiss my ass, to all the people who agree with me, piss off also, grow a pair and start voiceing your opinions rather then sitting in your guild vents complaining to your guild members about it and stop letting these little whine asses ruin our game that we have come to love and enjoy


Fixed so that it could be read w/o making my eyes bleed.

Also to expose the unbelievable degree of elitist snobbery within. it hurts you that much that someone has what you have? I FEED ON YOUR HARDCORE TEARS.

Either give the majority of your players ( casuals, not snobs like you) what they want, or lose them. I cant begin to tell you how many friends I made ingame who quit because of the difficulty of Cata at launch. Blizz is correcting course, but it may be to little too late.

To hardcores: WE OUTNUMBER YOU, THEREFORE OUR MONEY OUTNUMBERS YOURS.

YOU LOSE.



Hahaha...I totally agree with you, well put:)
I believe the best change of how this could be done is the same way they are trying to push people into RBGs.

Put a VP cap of X and then top it off by a percentage of X by doing the current content.

For example, you could get 700 VPs [By the way of doing T11 raids, Troll heroics and random heroics combined], but to cap it to 980/[Insert random amount], you would either have to do Firelands, or Occu'thar.

This would mean that the casual players WILL still get their 378s, but at the cost of them being slower in comparison to what the Hardcore raiders are getting. This will keep the raiders interested, because they will get something EXTRA for the effort they are putting into the raid.

It will push people into doing FL by giving them the incentive to actually step foot into the raid and kill the relevant bosses.

The downside, would be simply the fact that this would increase the PUG activity AND may lead to multiple FAIL groups, which will lead to players ragequitting. However, to counter that, it will cause the same players to seek a stable group, which would lead to new guilds being formed rather than random strangers going into FL to wipe again and again at Shannox/Beth.

This model would be easily upgradable once 4.3 hits, and will have only the most incompetent buffoons quitting WoW, or simply pushed to be content with the lesser amounts of VPs per week.

Also, inb4 "Stop your QQ you elitist snob". I play casually, and I have simply no problem learning the mechanics of new bosses, and am decently geared with 4/7 normal bosses down. If I have to put 3-4 hours per week to get a number of bosses down and get my share of good gear, I would love to do it, because that way I can be up to date with the current content.

Just my 2 cents.
07/19/2011 11:16 AMPosted by Cana
Part of the appeal to raiding is getting the exclusive rewards. These changes as of late make detract from that. Raiding rewards are no longer exclusive to raiders. The current environment would be the equivalent of if Molten Core items dropped from UBRS and Stratholme.


1st off, as a raider of Molten Core on a warrior tank and at the time a novelty Shadow priest, I actually wore more blue items from Dire Maul, Molten Core, Strat and Scholo than I did from Molten Core itself. Additionally, as a reminder UBRS was actually a 15-man dungeon and many, many early Strat and Scholo runs were actually run as a "Raid" instead of 5-man...

In regards to "exclussive to raiders"...there was a point cap instituted at 980 points with 4.2. Even if you were able to kill all 7 Fireland bosses -and- the BH boss, you would not cap at 980 points in a 10-man raid. You would still fall short of the 980 cap.

Why do you care "how" someone gets to 980 if 980 is the cap and it can not be attained simply from Firelands? Let me repeat for emphasis, you can not cap 980 points from killing 7 Firelands bosses and the BH boss. Now that blizzard has moved from an "emblem" model to a raw "points" model and on top of that capped the points on a weekly basis, why would anyone care where the points came from.

Prior to this change a player could get 490 points from running 5-man non-troll heroics. Are you telling me you find it perfectly acceptable for a player to queue up for non-troll dungeons (7 dungeons) for 3-4 bosses per run? Yet you object to the idea of 10-players assembling to actually raid something for a maximum of 420 points? That makes no sense at all.

If it's impossible to obtain the cap (980) from the most current content and requires you to run some form of old content to achieve your weekly cap, how anyone object to Valor being rewarded for actually raiding over performing 5-man non-troll dungeons?


Your points are very valid, I don't think the main issue is T11 boss kills rewarding VP. Its the fact that there is no VP benefit to running T12 content. The VP awarded for defeating T12 bosses should be increased to facilitate this, or the cap should be raised for players obtaining VP from T12. A recommendation would be to have a combined VP cap for T11 raid content and Zulian Heroics, and a slightly higher overall cap -- something like 980 for T11/Heroics and 1200 overall.
Due to some recent player feedback we’ve made the decision to implement a hotfix that will put Valor Points back on the bosses in Blackwing Descent, Bastion of Twilight, and Throne of the Four Winds (except Argoloth).

We agreed that players should have some additional options for earning Valor Points beyond Firelands, Zandalari dungeons, and tier 11 Heroic difficulty raids. We don’t want raiding guilds to feel like they have to raid Firelands AND the old raids every week, but we do want players to feel like they have some options besides running ZA/ZG over and over.

Bosses in these raids will award 35 VP on 10-player normal difficulty, and 45 VP on 25-player normal difficulty, to match the rewards currently offered for the Heroic versions of those encounters.

This change should be live within the next few hours. You can stay informed about the latest hotfixes by checking the Patch 4.2 Hotfixes article for updates: [url]http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/3019413[/url]


Why not Argoloth? Couldnt you make him drop the same 35/45 that the other tier 11 bosses drop? Hell I would be happy if it was just 20 valor. Either that or could you please change Occuthar to drop a full 140 instead of leaving us 20 short of the cap unless we run a random for just 20 valor? Please fix this.
Overgear the content with a few valor items? Come on now.

No matter what anyone wants to think about ilvl or what a few set pieces can offer, people aren't going to equip some valor boots and suddenly start rolling over bosses.


Part of the appeal to raiding is getting the exclusive rewards. These changes as of late make detract from that. Raiding rewards are no longer exclusive to raiders. The current environment would be the equivalent of if Molten Core items dropped from UBRS and Stratholme.

Or if people thought that getting ilvl 346 gear was too hard, you would allow them to get the items through fishing.

Sure, just getting the gear alone isn't going to make the bosses fall over at your feet. But the gear represents more than just the ability to kill bosses. It represents an achievement in the game. Now that every person of every class walks around looking identical, you hardly have any idea who has accomplished what.


And this hotfix changes absolutely nothing about someone's ability to get valor rewards.

The change is that instead of chain-running troll dungeons to cap VP they have an additional option. Adding that additional option doesn't suddenly make the valor rewards more accessible. Especially because the option that's being added is entirely less accessible than what's been available this entire time.

You can make an argument that current tier shouldn't be available for purchase with Valor at all, that's a valid opinion to state. But that's a different topic.

What you're saying is that by us adding additional but less accessible ways (raids) to obtain VP that it somehow makes the rewards less meaningful than they were when people could 'only use Dungeon Finder' to get them. Sorry but that just doesn't make any sense.



Part of the appeal to raiding is getting the exclusive rewards. These changes as of late make detract from that. Raiding rewards are no longer exclusive to raiders. The current environment would be the equivalent of if Molten Core items dropped from UBRS and Stratholme.

Or if people thought that getting ilvl 346 gear was too hard, you would allow them to get the items through fishing.

Sure, just getting the gear alone isn't going to make the bosses fall over at your feet. But the gear represents more than just the ability to kill bosses. It represents an achievement in the game. Now that every person of every class walks around looking identical, you hardly have any idea who has accomplished what.


And this hotfix changes absolutely nothing about someone's ability to get valor rewards.

The change is that instead of chain-running troll dungeons to cap VP they have an additional option. Adding that additional option doesn't suddenly make the valor rewards more accessible. Especially because the option that's being added is entirely less accessible than what's been available this entire time.

You can make an argument that current tier shouldn't be available for purchase with Valor at all, that's a valid opinion to state. But that's a different topic.

What you're saying is that by us adding additional but less accessible ways (raids) to obtain VP that it somehow makes the rewards less meaningful than they were when people could 'only use Dungeon Finder' to get them. Sorry but that just doesn't make any sense.


and this is a step in the wrong direction....It does not making Raiding CURRENT content the most efficient way to gather VP. It makes Raiding OLD content and doing 5 mans the most efficient way. It Cheapens the value of Valor Points. I don't mind old raids getting VP...I do mind them and 5mans being the best way to aquire VP. If you're going to do this, the Troll Heroics need to be brought down to the level of regular heroics...much like ICC Heroics were in Wrath.



EDIT: Also, First first!

EDIT2: As a semi-Hardcore Raider who is only 2/7 right now (check my Druid Darmack), I hate feeling compelled to do this old content. I dont want to do it over and over and over like I have to now. If VP was nerfed from 5 mans, I would feel better about it....Even 5 mans were capped at 440 and 5 mans at 540, to give us 980, I would be okay with this because then at least 5 mans could not cap you ALONE...That is the big problem.
07/19/2011 11:39 AMPosted by Oda
A recommendation would be to have a combined VP cap for T11 raid content and Zulian Heroics, and a slightly higher overall cap -- something like 980 for T11/Heroics and 1200 overall.


Many people actually support this idea, if you again read the other thread.

There were even suggestions of rewarding VP for only T11 end boss kills, so as to give even greater incentive to those that were helping newer / less skilled players to finish the raid instead of possibly just quitting because they got "enough" VP.

I believe my own idea (ammended after suggestions) in that thread was 140 per Nefarian and Cho'gall kill, then 70 for each Al'akir kill since Throne is such a small instance and Al'akir is arguably the easiest of the three after nerfs. This was also paired with VP cap from heroics nerf.

My opinion as to why something like that wasn't implemented was to give people that liked to strictly run 5 mans a way to continue doing so without seeming left out and the same of people that didn't have time to full-clear all of the T11 content. Or it could be something like what was stated earlier. People would use alts to keep a raidID for the end-bosses and then simply farm them for even quicker and easier VP.
07/19/2011 02:04 AMPosted by Bashiok
Overgear the content with a few valor items? Come on now.

Thats what I did with most of the bosses t11 pre-nerf.
07/19/2011 11:55 AMPosted by Bashiok
The change is that instead of chain-running troll dungeons to cap VP they have an additional option.

Main reason I like this, so I get to jump in a raid and not worry how am I going to make up on lost time by not running a heroic. I still feel that the cap from running five mans is too high and that the nerf to the raid cap looks completely unwarranted.
07/19/2011 11:59 AMPosted by Attilian
and this is a step in the wrong direction....It does not making Raiding CURRENT content the most efficient way to gather VP. It makes Raiding OLD content and doing 5 mans the most efficient way. It Cheapens the value of Valor Points. I don't mind old raids getting VP...I do mind them and 5mans being the best way to aquire VP. If you're going to do this, the Troll Heroics need to be brought down to the level of regular heroics...much like ICC Heroics were in Wrath.


Bashiok stated that that's another topic in the quote you posted. If you feel it needs to change, why not make a constructive discussion thread about it instead of trying to argue the point here?

I, myself, might even come and lend my support on the issue.

EDIT: Bashiok, I continually thank you for your posting in this thread to enlighten the people about how it affects them. Our children shall be little bear-demons. Or demon-bears. Whatever.
and this is a step in the wrong direction....It does not making Raiding CURRENT content the most efficient way to gather VP. It makes Raiding OLD content and doing 5 mans the most efficient way. It Cheapens the value of Valor Points. I don't mind old raids getting VP...I do mind them and 5mans being the best way to aquire VP. If you're going to do this, the Troll Heroics need to be brought down to the level of regular heroics...much like ICC Heroics were in Wrath.



EDIT: Also, First first!

EDIT2: As a semi-Hardcore Raider who is only 2/7 right now (check my Druid Darmack), I hate feeling compelled to do this old content. I dont want to do it over and over and over like I have to now. If VP was nerfed from 5 mans, I would feel better about it....Even 5 mans were capped at 440 and 5 mans at 540, to give us 980, I would be okay with this because then at least 5 mans could not cap you ALONE...That is the big problem.


You can't "devalue" VP anymore than it already has been by being attainable by running random heroics (be it the standard variety or troll ones). Now you and I both agree that the VP rewards for actually RUNNING the current top tier raids are woefully inadequate, but that's an entirely different point. Top tier raids should be awarding substantially more VP than they currently do (and I think that it should also have a slightly higher cap).

VP is already and has been all along, easily acquired by running content that you can quickly out-gear and steamroll (mostly if you don't factor in the average level of bad in the RDF). The value of VP isn't going to change until they remove it from random heroics (or reduce it). I don't think anyone has suggested "giving vp" for doing daily quests or whatnot (and I'd never be okay with that), so for the time being, the value of VP is still exactly has it has been all along.
Blizzard thank you so much for listening to us. I and many others, were so sick of running Za and zg almost exclusively.
I believe the best change of how this could be done is the same way they are trying to push people into RBGs.

Put a VP cap of X and then top it off by a percentage of X by doing the current content.

For example, you could get 700 VPs [By the way of doing T11 raids, Troll heroics and random heroics combined], but to cap it to 980/[Insert random amount], you would either have to do Firelands, or Occu'thar.

This would mean that the casual players WILL still get their 378s, but at the cost of them being slower in comparison to what the Hardcore raiders are getting. This will keep the raiders interested, because they will get something EXTRA for the effort they are putting into the raid.

It will push people into doing FL by giving them the incentive to actually step foot into the raid and kill the relevant bosses.

The downside, would be simply the fact that this would increase the PUG activity AND may lead to multiple FAIL groups, which will lead to players ragequitting. However, to counter that, it will cause the same players to seek a stable group, which would lead to new guilds being formed rather than random strangers going into FL to wipe again and again at Shannox/Beth.

This model would be easily upgradable once 4.3 hits, and will have only the most incompetent buffoons quitting WoW, or simply pushed to be content with the lesser amounts of VPs per week.

Also, inb4 "Stop your QQ you elitist snob". I play casually, and I have simply no problem learning the mechanics of new bosses, and am decently geared with 4/7 normal bosses down. If I have to put 3-4 hours per week to get a number of bosses down and get my share of good gear, I would love to do it, because that way I can be up to date with the current content.

Just my 2 cents.


This. There should be an incentive (for VP) to running the current content. I think this is the way to go. I also am a casual player (limited by time and by people showing up to raid).

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