Great PvE, Now Give PvP Some Lovin'!

General Discussion
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yes
Just played an AV game, reminded me of how much we need this.
resigning to emphasize that i wish for this to happen

/signed
Where is the blue post blizzard? YOUR community seems to be fairly interested in this idea.

It is about time this topic has been brought to the forefront and has had some light shed on it. Lets see now if Blizzard will keep ignoring it.

07/23/2011 03:12 PMPosted by Andysux
A huge long drawn out battle with the rp going off in your chat window. The idea is soo coool it gives me chills.


THIS
you must repost this to suggestions, PvP, and all server forums :D this is a great post and i Agree with it.

/sign
Anyway, we've got the usual people spamming /agree, now we might want to take some time to consider other concerns.

We've mentioned that honor is the "universal" PvP currency right now, but I didn't notice any mention of conquest points, which are actually the "real" PvP currency. Where do these fit in?

Would conquest be a reward for accomplishing certain objectives in the BG?

Is it just a reward for winning the match?

If so, how is it disbursed? Only to the players currently participating? To anybody who participated? Would that entail an "AV lock" sort of like the PvE raid lock, where if you enter you're locked to that AV until the battle ends?

Or are there no rewards at all? Keep in mind that people keep reminiscing about how great World PvP (tm) was, but despite that, people are loath to engage in it when there are better rewards elsewhere, unless it's a place like the Molten Front when there are already other things to focus on. How do we know AV isn't one of those things that has people lining up to say "oh yeah, THOSE were the days", yet sees zero participation when it's implemented?

What's to stop people from jumping out again and re-queueing the moment that they don't like how things are going?

On that note, how would votekicking be handled on a potentially 40v40 team?
Anyway, we've got the usual people spamming /agree, now we might want to take some time to consider other concerns.

We've mentioned that honor is the "universal" PvP currency right now, but I didn't notice any mention of conquest points, which are actually the "real" PvP currency. Where do these fit in?

Would conquest be a reward for accomplishing certain objectives in the BG?

Is it just a reward for winning the match?

If so, how is it disbursed? Only to the players currently participating? To anybody who participated? Would that entail an "AV lock" sort of like the PvE raid lock, where if you enter you're locked to that AV until the battle ends?

Or are there no rewards at all? Keep in mind that people keep reminiscing about how great World PvP (tm) was, but despite that, people are loath to engage in it when there are better rewards elsewhere, unless it's a place like the Molten Front when there are already other things to focus on. How do we know AV isn't one of those things that has people lining up to say "oh yeah, THOSE were the days", yet sees zero participation when it's implemented?

What's to stop people from jumping out again and re-queueing the moment that they don't like how things are going?

On that note, how would votekicking be handled on a potentially 40v40 team?


How about, AV has its own system, gained throughout the battle, that can be used to purchase Frostwolf/Stormpike specific stuff? Like updated mounts, special AV-themed weapons etc...
We've mentioned that honor is the "universal" PvP currency right now, but I didn't notice any mention of conquest points, which are actually the "real" PvP currency. Where do these fit in?


I had considered this briefly, but didn't bring it up in either thread yet. I probably should have, because it's an interesting issue, and I'm glad you mentioned it.

While it's nice to have a reward for your heroic efforts, there's a balance that must be struck. If the rewards are too few, many people will lose interest. If the rewards are too great, however, then people who hate Classic AV (or long BG's in general) will feel forced to run it for honor/conquest points.

The concept of offering more unique or AV-specific rewards is worth exploring. I personally enjoy quirky, slightly random effects like Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether or Six Demon Bag in PvP. Since Marks of Alterac Valley are no longer used elsewhere, they could be brought back as a form of BG-specific currency.

Should CP be offered only for victory, or for the completion of specific objectives? Should they be distributed evenly among teammates, or only to those who are nearby when certain conditions are met?


Insert crummy poetry here.
Give us Old AV sometime this year.
07/23/2011 04:44 PMPosted by Foury
We've mentioned that honor is the "universal" PvP currency right now, but I didn't notice any mention of conquest points, which are actually the "real" PvP currency. Where do these fit in?


I had considered this briefly, but didn't bring it up in either thread yet. I probably should have, because it's an interesting issue, and I'm glad you mentioned it.

While it's nice to have a reward for your heroic efforts, there's a balance that must be struck. If the rewards are too few, many people will lose interest. If the rewards are too great, however, then people who hate Classic AV (or long BG's in general) will feel forced to run it for honor/conquest points.

The concept of offering more unique or AV-specific rewards is worth exploring. I personally enjoy quirky, slightly random effects like Darkmoon Card: Twisting Nether or Six Demon Bag in PvP. Since Marks of Alterac Valley are no longer used elsewhere, they could be brought back as a form of BG-specific currency.

Should CP be offered only for victory, or for the completion of specific objectives? Should they be distributed evenly among teammates, or only to those who are nearby when certain conditions are met?


Insert crummy poetry here.
Give us Old AV sometime this year.


Maybe, just maybe, "Old AV" could act as a Rated Battleground?
I personally love all bg's, especially CTF ones
07/23/2011 05:49 PMPosted by Mattrim
Maybe, just maybe, "Old AV" could act as a Rated Battleground?


No one in rated bg's would want a 7 hr match.

@Selva,

We want this back for the epicness it once had. It would be an all out war. Maybe putting this in for TB and taking TB out and putting it into the BG queue would work better IMO.

All players want now is just in game rewards instead of fun. People seem to forget this is a game which most people bought to have fun.

Edit:

Maybe since 4.2 was all about the PvE, 4.3 will be more PvP focused.

Add in some lore about dwarves from the south trying to attack frostwolves or something. Just an idea to get the ball rolling, if you know what I mean...:/
I doubt that just improving BGs will fix PvP. What about...

Leveling zones devoted to PvP players?

Improved and better selection of low level PvP gear to stop the crying about twinks and heirlooms?

Lore that advances and tie in with PvP?

Dungeons and Raids with enemies that simulate our classes in fights like the faction champions from Trial of the Crusader, and members of the opposite factions can join in on the fun by competing for pvp loot and honor?

When PvP is treated less as a series of mini games and becomes just as engaging as PvE, then it'll be fine.
I doubt that just improving BGs will fix PvP. What about...

Leveling zones devoted to PvP players?

Improved and better selection of low level PvP gear to stop the crying about twinks and heirlooms?

Lore that advances and tie in with PvP?



Actually...that is all we are asking for, more fun and interactive BG's to make PvP more fun.

PvP players don't leveling zones dedicated specifically for them.

Gear is fine at lower levels, maybe nerf the heirloom stats a bit for the QQers but gear isn't a big deal in PvP after around 50 or so then it becomes the actual mechanics of classes. A rogue can easily crit 5k with ambush in crappy gear at 60.

Dungeons and Raids with enemies that simulate our classes in fights like the faction champions from Trial of the Crusader, and members of the opposite factions can join in on the fun by competing for pvp loot and honor?

When PvP is treated less as a series of mini games and becomes just as engaging as PvE, then it'll be fine.


I don't exactly get what you mean by this? Are you asking for more fights like Faction Champs? Because that wasn't as engaging it was just burn heals kill melee dps then range dps.
After reading the thread, I thought a bit on a few things.

The initial suggestion, while it sounds good, will have some major problems:

AFK Botters being the most obvious issue, there are ways to get around it. AFK botters do what they do (or don't do, rather) because they are attempting to gain honor to buy gear with.

The best choice would be to deny them the honor. Have AV award 'Currency' for completing objectives, and obviously, winning the battleground. Award honor ONLY for killing enemy players.

The focus here is for fun, not for honor. If there is low honor per hour for non-participation, then the bots should start disappearing. Yes, this would affect people who guard objectives that don't get any PvP action, but that's just an unfortunate side effect. It would necessitate Blizzard making it so that were no objectives that felt 'unnecessary' so that PvP WILL happen at them.

In addition, it would be great if some more quest chains could be added to the battleground. I enjoyed my first forays into AV, being able to do quests and otherwise participate in the massive effort needed to win.
I'm new to PvP (Mostly) and I support this. Most of the time BGs are nothing but watching the two flag carriers sit at base while everyone rages on one side or the other, whining about us newbies. :(

In my current opinion, PvP on World of Warcraft is nothing but a "Who hit first" zone, or a "Pray your team has more heirlooms" deal (Whole 'nother discussion there). But in every BG I've been in, I've not really felt...sucked in, or immersed in any way, or even remotely feel like it's a war. It just feels like "Oh well let's just get this over with, I want my S10 shoulders." No real sense of warfare or teamwork (Particularly sick of watching classes ride by watching us squishies getting teamed on. :|| )

I'd love a gigantic warzone. Tol Barad is nothing but hot-potato base-defense/capture, Wintergrasp too(Does anyone even do that anymore?). Give us newbies and PvErs a great end-game BG to introduce us to epic PvP the way it was meant to be: brutal and unforgiving. :D

For Alterac Valley! /signed
AFK Botters being the most obvious issue, there are ways to get around it. AFK botters do what they do (or don't do, rather) because they are attempting to gain honor to buy gear with.


Yes, and part of the reason I didn't bring up Conquest Points as a reward option earlier was that very dilemma, which I do keep mentioning every few posts.

The primary goal of this crusade to "bring back a classic-style Alterac Valley with some modern improvements" is to bring fun back to PvP. I posted in General to see how this idea would go over with a more diverse group of players (and to be seen, of course). While a number of people on the Battleground forums have suggested that they would be happy even if no honor was awarded, I am finding that the General forum posters are a little more inclined to want to get something out of it.

I'm not suggesting that it is an inherently bad frame of mind. I'm saying that when Blizzard changed Alterac Valley to match that mentality they removed most of the fun stuff. Likewise, the desire for maximum reward with minimal effort is the root cause of AFK botters and players whose mantra is "Just let them 5-cap."

While I'm open to exploring more ideas regarding the rewards issue, I think that in the end we may need to settle for having fewer rewards relative to other battlegrounds. Ideally, if we could work out a solution without creating an entirely new rewards system just for AV, that would be great. I think that as long as AV gives players, say, 90% as much honor as they would get farming shorter battlegrounds, that's a fair balance.

Part of the idea was to make AV more of an "endgame" battleground, where you want to go once you've geared up a little anyway.


The best choice would be to deny [AFK botters] the honor. Have AV award 'Currency' for completing objectives, and obviously, winning the battleground. Award honor ONLY for killing enemy players.

The focus here is for fun, not for honor. If there is low honor per hour for non-participation, then the bots should start disappearing. Yes, this would affect people who guard objectives that don't get any PvP action, but that's just an unfortunate side effect.


No matter what reward system we go with, I think that guarding objectives and completing turn-ins must be equally as profitable as leading the assault, otherwise nobody will do it.


In addition, it would be great if some more quest chains could be added to the battleground. I enjoyed my first forays into AV, being able to do quests and otherwise participate in the massive effort needed to win.


Additional quests aimed at new recruits is among the suggested changes.


Obligatory poetry
For bringing back Old AV
It once was here, but now is gone
When will Blizzard right this wrong?
Oh, just a quick thought here make people in Cave get no honor.
I have never played the Old Alterac Valley, but it sounds absolutely amazing. I would love for this change to be implemented.
Man, I miss old AV.

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