1.35% of all wow players completed normal FL

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Those 25% had a year to do it in. It's been just over three months.


And in 2 months, No one will do FLs again. Outdated content is outdated.

The point is glaringly obvious. If the content isn't made available to the majority to enjoy, then the majority has no reason to stick around.

The problem lies in the fact that back in LK days, as long as you had your T9 set with 245 offset pieces, people gave you a 'chance' to do ICC in the pugs.

Having that starter set showed that you were willing to grind out the gear so you could get started.

Today? Today, they expect you to have the achieve 'and' have obscene ilvls to do 'outdated' content.

That's my server. No, I will not pay extra for a transfer to a better server. I like my server and I like my friends there.


That is a flaw from 1) the giveaway of raid loot for VP, rather than 5 10 man pieces, 2 or so 25 man pieces and a T9 10 man set from the ICC 5 mans you can kill your first FL boss with an i371 set already equipped with 10 i378 items.

2) no off night raids and the loss of 25 man raids has slashed the available guild raid spots so more people have to PuG, so can be more picky, and a lot of guilds are running the system of bringing in different players on different bosses so there are more fully geared players available for PuGs.

3) it was exactly the same in WotLK, remember the GS QQ?


ICC was out 6 months actually. But even veering away from ICC, Ulduar was the "least" raided instance in ICC but it still had 12% WoW Participation which is much higher than Firelands and any other Cataclysm Raid (Pre-nerfs).


No, ICC was out for a year, unless you think people stopped raiding it when Ruby Sanctum came out.


Well, you are correct as far as when ICC was introduced into the game (patch 3.3.0), the entire instance wasn't accessible for 3 months (I think, Blizzard was doing the Step Release Times for different wings if I remember correctly).

So Arthas was in the game for about 9 months or so. What I'm curious with is whether or not we're still, even with all the additional time ICC was out with, if you would see any % even close to 25% with Firelands OR Deathwing.
10/13/2011 12:00 AMPosted by Ondskan
my previous guild xferred to horde and i just pvp casually now.


I wasn't prepared for this. I lost a good mouthful of tea.


And in 2 months, No one will do FLs again. Outdated content is outdated.

The point is glaringly obvious. If the content isn't made available to the majority to enjoy, then the majority has no reason to stick around.

The problem lies in the fact that back in LK days, as long as you had your T9 set with 245 offset pieces, people gave you a 'chance' to do ICC in the pugs.

Having that starter set showed that you were willing to grind out the gear so you could get started.

Today? Today, they expect you to have the achieve 'and' have obscene ilvls to do 'outdated' content.

That's my server. No, I will not pay extra for a transfer to a better server. I like my server and I like my friends there.


That is a flaw from 1) the giveaway of raid loot for VP, rather than 5 10 man pieces, 2 or so 25 man pieces and a T9 10 man set from the ICC 5 mans you can kill your first FL boss with an i371 set already equipped with 10 i378 items.

2) no off night raids and the loss of 25 man raids has slashed the available guild raid spots so more people have to PuG, so can be more picky, and a lot of guilds are running the system of bringing in different players on different bosses so there are more fully geared players available for PuGs.

3) it was exactly the same in WotLK, remember the GS QQ?


Well, I also remember people taking 3+ characters through ICC and getting many more toons geared. Don't know how much of that will be done in Firelands or with Deathwing.
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we poll and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.

We try and make content for all of our players. It’s both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. “Hardcore” players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we’re looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.

But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.

Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that’s not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don’t want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.

There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.



Man I know we rage at the devs a lot on here, but you couldnt pay me to do that job, I would be pulling my hair out, bald in a week. And I have a lovely mane wouldnt want to lose it lol. Now people actually read what he said, maybe you will understand.
10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.


I don't envy you the task of tuning raidfinder Deathwing.

"Don't make it too easy. Make it epic. Make it a good learning ground for new raiders. Make it fun, not too stressful."

I'm glad you're making it though. It will be an interesting tier.
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we poll and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.

We try and make content for all of our players. It’s both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. “Hardcore” players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we’re looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.

But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.

Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content. Others are motivated by the challenge, and if things are too easy, they lose interest. These players also tend to assume that everyone shares their mindset and they will be happy to wipe on a fight over and over and over with hopes of improving. In reality, we know from data that a lot of players might be willing to wipe a few times, and then after that, they’re done raiding and potentially even playing. It might be easy to dismiss those players and argue raiding is not for them, but that’s not really our design goal. Raids represent an enormous commitment of developer resources. In the same way that we would never make 20 new Arenas just for Gladiator-level players, we don’t want to develop a raid that only 2% of our raiders can see. We will make sure that there are challenging encounters for players who enjoy that sort of thing (as many of us professional game developers do), but then our goal will be to, over time, broaden the potential audience by bringing the content difficulty down. We think the shock with Firelands for some players was that the nerfs were so severe instead of gradual. For the 4.3 Dragon Soul raid we plan on gradually nerfing it over time, sort of like we did with Icecrown Citadel, except by nerfing the content instead of buffing the players.

There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.



Just show us the numbers and shut us up already. Sheesh. People are gonna speculate and come up with their own answers. You might as well put out some cold hard facts so we can move on. Quit with the secrecy around your numbers. It's old hat now. The whole "you're wrong and we're right, but we're never gonna provide proof" bit is stale.


And in 2 months, No one will do FLs again. Outdated content is outdated.

The point is glaringly obvious. If the content isn't made available to the majority to enjoy, then the majority has no reason to stick around.

The problem lies in the fact that back in LK days, as long as you had your T9 set with 245 offset pieces, people gave you a 'chance' to do ICC in the pugs.

Having that starter set showed that you were willing to grind out the gear so you could get started.

Today? Today, they expect you to have the achieve 'and' have obscene ilvls to do 'outdated' content.

That's my server. No, I will not pay extra for a transfer to a better server. I like my server and I like my friends there.


That is a flaw from 1) the giveaway of raid loot for VP, rather than 5 10 man pieces, 2 or so 25 man pieces and a T9 10 man set from the ICC 5 mans you can kill your first FL boss with an i371 set already equipped with 10 i378 items.

2) no off night raids and the loss of 25 man raids has slashed the available guild raid spots so more people have to PuG, so can be more picky, and a lot of guilds are running the system of bringing in different players on different bosses so there are more fully geared players available for PuGs.

3) it was exactly the same in WotLK, remember the GS QQ?

This is what I believe is the Central problem with Cata, the effects of that change are far reaching and universally negative. The only argument for it was that peopel felt obligated t run 25 and 10, well guess what, with the new Raid finder they will be obliged to do just that.

That change needs to be reverted
Thank you for the response Bashiok.

That has to be one of the best worded blue answers I've seen in a long time and I feel that it provides a pretty generally comprehensive answer to explain a good portion of why decisions were made.

The point is that there are still MANY people that haven't completed normal Firelands yet. There are a significantly smaller portion of people that have completed heroic Firelands even AFTER the nerf.

I contend that Blizzard made the absolute right decision to nerf Firelands when they did.
if you take the numbers of the characters they used in their data, and the number of those characters who completed firelands.. I think someone said on that page on MMOc that it's around 5%.. which still isn't all that great.
As others have pointed out, your 1.35% is just wrong due to the stats MMO is stating, but whatever, we’re not going to reveal any of our internal numbers to show how wrong you are, or discount the numbers posted on MMO for that matter. I will say they’re likely as accurate as they can be. Meaning, they’re wrong, but at no fault of theirs simply due to the data they have available to them. While we do have data we poll and review very regularly, it’s not always a true measure of success or failure without considering the context.

We try and make content for all of our players. It’s both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. “Hardcore” players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we’re looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.

But even with a system (we believe) as awesome as the Raid Finder, there are no simple solutions.


TY, it is frustrating when a 7/7 HM player comes on saying how easy the game is and how we all suck (or someone with 7/7 normal who got rag down last week in a full i378 set and thinks they are as skilled as a world first guild.

And thanks for pointing out the bad math and poor comprehension that has been going on (hint for bad readers: 1.2% is a made up number from thinking that the MMO champ data is for players in the whole world, not a sample of 2.7 million characters).

But it would be nice to get an idea of how many people participate in each area of the game (again for poor readers, people not the characters MMO used).


10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
We try and make content for all of our players. It’s both a blessing and a curse that the WoW player base is as large and diverse as it is. “Hardcore” players for example tend to dramatically underestimate the skill gap between themselves and the vast majority of other players. A lot of games handle this problem through multiple difficulty settings. That is harder to do in a game as content rich as World of Warcraft, but it is something we’re looking at more and more with new features like Raid Finder essentially adding a more accessible setting.


More bosses would go a long way to fixing that. As would a return to two levels of difficulty with 10 and 25 mans (well a designed 2 levels, rather than it being 2 levels as an ex 25 player raid takes their best 10 to do 10s so it is relatively easy compared to 25 mans if damage and HP scaled equally).



10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
Players are motivated to raid (and do any content for that matter) for a lot of different reasons. A sizeable number of players are satisfied with seeing most of the game content once. If they kill the dragon or slay the Lich King, they (appropriately) feel like they have won the game. That view is pretty heretical to the traditional raider, who is used to working for weeks to defeat a boss and then spending the next few weeks or months farming that boss so that their group has a leg up for the next tier of content. Other players can be motivated by gear, and once they accrue their rewards they are done with the content.


I have had to take a leave of absence from the forums over this, but for the last couple of months I have been QQing my little socks off over this topic.

LFR is going to be amazing for letting everyone see the content.

But how do you convince everyone to carry on and spend the next 6 months wiping then farming through the same content to get a gear set that consists of 10 pieces you can buy for valor points from running 5 mans?

From your point of view to keep the money coming in each month. From my point of view to keep enough players playing so I can raid each week.

The shared loot killed 25 mans as you can't talk a replacement raider into taking the slow route to gear through harder 25 mans when it is progression content. So people naturally took the easier route and did 10s.

Will 6 pieces of gear be enough to convince players to do normal mode raids? After all 16 pieces is often not enough to talk people into doing heroics after they spent months clearing the bosses on normal mode.




10/13/2011 02:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
There is another portion of players that are just not interested in raiding no matter how accessible it is, and that’s fine too, but we do keep track of how player behavior in the past may match player behavior currently or even in the future as we make these choices. Overall our goals are to ultimately get as many people seeing and downing Deathwing as saw the end of Naxxramas in Wrath of the Lich King. That’s not all going to be day 1 of the patch, or even in the first month, but with the Raid Finder and gradual lowering of content we think we can create that initial super high barrier to test the true worth of the hardest of the hardcore, while also providing some fun and accessible content to a much wider swath of players.


Obviously you have to reinvest subscriptions in the areas that are most popular and bring in the most subscription money for the next patch.

But I do have a worry about LFR, if you don't want it becoming a boot fest or wipe fest then it has to be easy, but if it is easy then people "complete" the game too easily. I would suspect that many who don't raid find raid thing of sometimes spending a week or more wiping on the same boss as really off putting, balancing keeping them happy with their not being able to one shot the place or boot anyone without the HM DS raid ach is going to be tough. Unless of course you just gate every few bosses...
This is what I believe is the Central problem with Cata, the effects of that change are far reaching and universally negative. The only argument for it was that peopel felt obligated t run 25 and 10, well guess what, with the new Raid finder they will be obliged to do just that.


Don't see how raid finder would be the same thing. Back in Wrath if people asked people to come, the raid couldn't start unless they got enough people from the guild/server to come. you're not coming could me 24 other people not raiding.

LFR, different story. If I don't come, someone else will come up on the finder in my place. And if I'm raiding normal raids, getting gear from lfr raids won't really be needed.


That is a flaw from 1) the giveaway of raid loot for VP, rather than 5 10 man pieces, 2 or so 25 man pieces and a T9 10 man set from the ICC 5 mans you can kill your first FL boss with an i371 set already equipped with 10 i378 items.

2) no off night raids and the loss of 25 man raids has slashed the available guild raid spots so more people have to PuG, so can be more picky, and a lot of guilds are running the system of bringing in different players on different bosses so there are more fully geared players available for PuGs.

3) it was exactly the same in WotLK, remember the GS QQ?

This is what I believe is the Central problem with Cata, the effects of that change are far reaching and universally negative. The only argument for it was that peopel felt obligated t run 25 and 10, well guess what, with the new Raid finder they will be obliged to do just that.

That change needs to be reverted


Actually the VP cap killed the need to repeatedly run the content from day 1 of caty.

And a lot of people are moving into HM FL, that negates the LFR loot so negates the need to run it on top of your raid, unless you are progressing and need the VP (this "forced" play was made worse with the raised 5 man VP cap) or want the lower ilevel tier set to finish a bonus.
Know what I've taken from this thread?

The chief argument against the numbers in question states that it counts characters versus accounts. This is true, of course, and it greatly skews the numbers. The problem I see with this claim is that it also demonstrates that people aren't gearing up their alts like they did in Wrath and taking them into current content.

I would say that this, in itself, is a pretty decisive change.
10/13/2011 02:12 PMPosted by Jonos
Just show us the numbers and shut us up already. Sheesh. People are gonna speculate and come up with their own answers. You might as well put out some cold hard facts so we can move on. Quit with the secrecy around your numbers. It's old hat now. The whole "you're wrong and we're right, but we're never gonna provide proof" bit is stale.


And why should they? All of the data that Blizzard collects on World of Warcraft is proprietary, and they'll share exactly as much of that with the public as they want to. The only thing that's stale around here is the sense of entitlement that Blizzard somehow owes us the information. If you must ask, try asking nicely instead of being so demanding.

But I do have a worry about LFR, if you don't want it becoming a boot fest or wipe fest then it has to be easy, but if it is easy then people "complete" the game too easily. I would suspect that many who don't raid find raid thing of sometimes spending a week or more wiping on the same boss as really off putting, balancing keeping them happy with their not being able to one shot the place or boot anyone without the HM DS raid ach is going to be tough. Unless of course you just gate every few bosses...


Well, look at it this way.

For the people it's targetting, their endgame currently is basically zg/za. They are adding easy mode raids for those people. This is more for them to do, not less which could keep them interested in the game more.

If you're currently doing organized raiding content (normal or heroic) than LFR will likely have limited utility for your main, but you may enjoy it on your alt. I can't think of many circumstances where it would reduce subs, since it is fundamentally giving people more things to do, not less.

The only case I can think of where this might not be the case is those straddling normal mode raiding and not, where maybe pre-nerf they got shannox down or maybe shannox and beth down in normal modes. Those players might exclusively raid in LFR, and may become bored quicker because they run out of things to do quicker, but I don't think that'll be the vast majority of players.

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