The new talent system will fail, miserably.

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10/23/2011 03:54 PMPosted by Bomdanil
If you don't have the cookie cutter spec, you're gimped. How is that flexibility?


And the same will be true in Mists.

"Why didn't you use X?"
"I don't have it, I took Y"
"Well, change it to X, Y is horribad."
"But I like Y and don't want to change"
"Well, then we'll get someone that knows how to play their class".
*player grumbles and changes to X*

With today's numbers, build me a cookie cutter spec for Warlock and Mage.
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/october/talents_warlock.jpg
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/october/talents_mage.jpg

Remember, it has to be a spec that is optimal for both bosses and trash. Every time I have presented this challenge, it's either evaded, ignored or heavily loaded with personal play style bias.
10/23/2011 03:58 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Whether or not the raid's success hinges on it is irrelevant.

If the boss dies all the same, then why are you at all concerned with that 0.5%? Do you simply make it a habit to make mountains out of molehills that don't exist?
Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong, OP.

The new trees are giving us more choices than ever.

I for one can't wait to be a fury warrior with Bladestorm... or maybe Shockwave for PvP... or maybe just go for a raw DPS buff and take Avatar... Hmm...

Seriously, this is the best aspect of the new xpac

I heard GC mention during the talent tree presentation about how he saw a warrior who didnt take a heroic strike, and how he was making a huge mistake blah blah....then he made another comment on how some raid leaders would look at a person's talent tree and notice that they didnt take this talent..or this talent, and they would remove them.

So basically he removed the talent trees so that noobs who dont know how to play their class and use talent trees properly, can get carried by the rest of us who do know how to play our class, who do know what heroic strike is for, and who do know how to use our talent trees properly.

That's basically all it is, he dumb downed the talent trees so we can carry noobs. He wants us to carrry bad players through raids from now on, even though were the ones who do all the work to research our class and get the most benefit from it.

All these talents are "choose how you wanna cc" "choose if u wanna run fast or teleport"....bah how stupid.

GC said nothing of the kind. HE said that all warriors are still keeping Heroic Strike, but he said nothing even remotely similar to the rest of your claim.

And if anything, this new system will further separate the skilled from the unskilled. We'll all be on relatively equal footing, meaning skill will shine through as much as mediocrity and ineptitude.
They're redoing the talent tree again?

Christ, are we moving backwards or forwards here? I've lost track.
Forward, actually. They redo the talent trees every expansion. Have been since TBC. Welcome to WoW, you must be new. ^.^
Blizzard just needs to learn that the Talents will always be the same. Whether they were big like in to Original, Small like in MoP or this middle size we have now. We always will find a way to shun or ignore those who don't get the talents that are excepted by the Raid. Blizzard has failed to realized that we don't just judge by the more passive talents that reduce mana or increase damage, but all talents. With this new system, Raid leaders will want their memebers to have SPECIFIC talents selected and will kick those that have dumb ones. The mage for example, can learn slow at lvl 90, it is a waste compared to the others, that can damage and reduce speed.
Seriously blizzard. Stop this expansion DEAD in the tracks. Cancel 100% of what you're doing. Kill the pokeymon pet combat (sure it would be cool to have them actually interact with each other but what you're doing is just stupid and completely SECONDAY)

Kill these talent changes. Kill the pandas. Kill this expansion completely. Sure the area's are gorgeous, so use the graphics for something else. If you have to delay another 6 months and add some after deathwing raids, awesome ... jump to it. This will be wow's downfall, period, and if you push forward with this, hopefully people learn from whats happening now and WONT buy Diablo 3, or any other blizzard game.
I heard GC mention during the talent tree presentation about how he saw a warrior who didnt take a heroic strike, and how he was making a huge mistake blah blah....then he made another comment on how some raid leaders would look at a person's talent tree and notice that they didnt take this talent..or this talent, and they would remove them.

So basically he removed the talent trees so that noobs who dont know how to play their class and use talent trees properly, can get carried by the rest of us who know what they're doing. I mean really someone should make a "Talent tree's are HARD!" post.

That's basically all it is, he dumb downed the talent trees, so we can carry noobs. He wants us to carrry bad players through raids from now on, even though were the ones who do all the work to research our class and get the most benefit from it.

All these talents are "choose how you wanna cc" "choose if u wanna run fast or teleport"....bah how stupid and boring.


You kind of don't get it. And I don't think copying your spec from EJ when you hit 85 means you have "skill".
10/23/2011 04:00 PMPosted by Bomdanil
You're honestly going to sit there and tell me you don't see how these versions of the talents trees are infinitely easier to balance?


Easier to balance? Absolutely. The silver bullet to min/maxing and cookie cutter specs? Not even close.


On maybe one or two choices per class you are still going to have to have one of the three. An example would be the first hunter choice when either venom tipped arrows will deal more damage(they haven't given out the numbers) or arcane arrows will give you more damage. Another one where you will have choice and none of them will give you an advantage on your general raid encounter would be the second where you have the choice of an interrupt, a cc, or a stun. Each can be beneficial in a given circumstance, with favor going to the interrupt and the stun, but would be highly situational and none would be superior over the course of an entire tier of raiding.
10/23/2011 03:39 PMPosted by Bomdanil
I already gave one example of a talent tier that is pure utility where even on the seemingly "no clear choice" talents there is in fact a clear choice.

Yeah that whole druid thing.

Just so you know I wouldn't take displacer beast. I'd actually take Tireless Pursuit.

Why?

Because while Displacer Beast is good because it teleports you and gives you stealth for 10 seconds. It does not allow you to choose where you teleport. Even points that out in the tooltip, 'teleports you in a random direction'. Now unless they change that so it teleports you similar to blink, all sorts of things could go wrong with that. Good example, any boss where you have to avoid the fire. Enjoy getting teleported into the fire because the RNG hates you.
10/23/2011 03:13 PMPosted by Catharlex
This is exactly what my friends and I have been discussing, and I couldn't agree more. Cookie Cutter specs will always be there. You can't change that, it just isn't possible.


This.


Honestly, I think there was a lot more uniqueness in the pre-Cata talent trees. People would at least experiment and try stuff back then because you COULD.

It might have been gimped, but people would TRY making an Elementalist (Frost/Fire) Mage or a Shockadin (Holy/Ret "caster DPS) Paladin.


In Cata, they killed that. In their effort to "make builds less cookie-cutter", all they succeeded in doing was making them MORE cookie cutter.

Pre-Cata, you'd see discussions of which tree to dig into for the 11 pointer (other than your main tree), for example Frost Mages digging into Arcane for Focus Magic or Fire Mages digging into Frost for Icy Veins. You'd see the occasional person giving up their 51 point talent (51 WAS the top, right? I forget it's been so long. :p) to try and dig down to the 21 point talent in another tree.


...and Blizzard said it was a problem because it made balance too difficult and people were (mostly) using cookie cutter specs anyway.


And now, they're basically removing specs all together. These aren't "talent trees" (trees is plural), it's a class perk tree.

And if you think people are going to be more individual with the Mists' tree, I hate to break it to you, but they're going to be even more the same.



Pre-Cata: You had a good 11-20 points to play with, that's 2-4 tiers worth in other trees or completely (or nearly so) filling out one tree.

Cata: You have 2-10 points to play with. That's 2 or less tiers out of the other trees or completely filling out your one tree.

Mists: You have no "free" points to play with, you get exactly one for each tier.



Maybe if they gave you 2 points at level 75 and 2 at 90 (so you could actually pick more than one ability from each of the levels), things might be more interesting. But only one per level?

Yeah, everyone in the game is going to be identical now. GG Bliz. GG.
10/23/2011 04:09 PMPosted by Legendaîry


And the same will be true in Mists.

"Why didn't you use X?"
"I don't have it, I took Y"
"Well, change it to X, Y is horribad."
"But I like Y and don't want to change"
"Well, then we'll get someone that knows how to play their class".
*player grumbles and changes to X*

With today's numbers, build me a cookie cutter spec for Warlock and Mage.
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/october/talents_warlock.jpg
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/october/talents_mage.jpg

Remember, it has to be a spec that is optimal for both bosses and trash. Every time I have presented this challenge, it's either evaded, ignored or heavily loaded with personal play style bias.


and i want the most tasty icecream in the world, with 1/2 a calorie per 10 gallons.

You can't have a perfect spec that takes all the trash points and still is viable for bosses. It more or less has to be one or the other. This is because in your two classes, the trash talents remove points which are necessary for other talents used in boss fights. Try again.
This.


Honestly, I think there was a lot more uniqueness in the pre-Cata talent trees. People would at least experiment and try stuff back then because you COULD.

It might have been gimped, but people would TRY making an Elementalist (Frost/Fire) Mage or a Shockadin (Holy/Ret "caster DPS) Paladin.


In Cata, they killed that. In their effort to "make builds less cookie-cutter", all they succeeded in doing was making them MORE cookie cutter.

Pre-Cata, you'd see discussions of which tree to dig into for the 11 pointer (other than your main tree), for example Frost Mages digging into Arcane for Focus Magic or Fire Mages digging into Frost for Icy Veins. You'd see the occasional person giving up their 51 point talent (51 WAS the top, right? I forget it's been so long. :p) to try and dig down to the 21 point talent in another tree.


...and Blizzard said it was a problem because it made balance too difficult and people were (mostly) using cookie cutter specs anyway.


And now, they're basically removing specs all together. These aren't "talent trees" (trees is plural), it's a class perk tree.

And if you think people are going to be more individual with the Mists' tree, I hate to break it to you, but they're going to be even more the same.



Pre-Cata: You had a good 11-20 points to play with, that's 2-4 tiers worth in other trees or completely (or nearly so) filling out one tree.

Cata: You have 2-10 points to play with. That's 2 or less tiers out of the other trees or completely filling out your one tree.

Mists: You have no "free" points to play with, you get exactly one for each tier.



Maybe if they gave you 2 points at level 75 and 2 at 90 (so you could actually pick more than one ability from each of the levels), things might be more interesting. But only one per level?

Yeah, everyone in the game is going to be identical now. GG Bliz. GG.


I couldn't agree with you more



And the same will be true in Mists.

"Why didn't you use X?"
"I don't have it, I took Y"
"Well, change it to X, Y is horribad."
"But I like Y and don't want to change"
"Well, then we'll get someone that knows how to play their class".
*player grumbles and changes to X*

With today's numbers, build me a cookie cutter spec for Warlock and Mage.
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/october/talents_warlock.jpg
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2011/october/talents_mage.jpg

Remember, it has to be a spec that is optimal for both bosses and trash. Every time I have presented this challenge, it's either evaded, ignored or heavily loaded with personal play style bias.


You do realize, the proposed talent system allows you to change talents as easy as glyphs, right?

Therefore, for that reason (and that reason alone), it does not require it to be optimal for both bosses and trash. One boss you can use one talent set, another boss another set. One type of pvp you can use one set, and another type another set. One group of trash you can use one set; and another group of trash you can use another set.

Many people already will change glyphs based on the encounters they face.
The new talent system is as much about ability bloat as it is about the current one being meh.

They could tweak the current one, and add in a new layer, but it's getting to the point where characters simply have too many abilities. Some people have the keyboard/mouse skills and setup to utilize all of them effectively, but it's getting ridiculous, especially with some class-specs.
It doesnt matter if its about mobility or utility instead of damage. Someone will find the best way to do things. And no, plenty of the spells are damage or healing or tank based.
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