Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

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Why do I have the feeling that no matter what, you are going to be?


Because we already know how the story's going to end. No one's going to win. It's like watching a comedian on stage drawing out a joke for 15 minutes, and when he makes it to the punchline, everyone's just going to go "That's it? Yeah, it was kinda funny, but not 15 minute setup funny."
Do you know? So tell us how it's going to end then. I want details. People are going to go "That's it?" no matter what. I can predict that right now. Because that's how people are.

The forums are becoming less and less about the actual issues, and more and more about personal stabs at blizz under the guise of a problem.
I recently did almost every quest on both EK and Kalimdor for the Alliance side, and I gotta say I didn't feel nearly as disappointed as others are claiming they are. I'm not sure where the sense of deserved equality comes from for Horde and Alliance in terms of story but it'd make for a very boring game.

As far as I know Blizzard never made any claims that the Alliance and Horde would have equal victories and losses with Cata, only that the war would escalate, and it did.

Plus, we have John J. Keeshan now, who's twice the hero Saurfang ever was. :)


I'm not a developer. But if you find that quote where we said we were going to make sure the Alliance immediately struck back in Hillsbrad, then came back and said, "oh sorry we had to cut lots of stuff cause we ran out of time workin on horde side lol," I'd love to read it. You did such a good job quoting me at the beginning of your post I can only assume this paraphrasing is equally as spot on.





Posted by you on 11-23-2010


Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".



Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".



Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation".


Thank you for finding the quote! It's good to be reminded I didn't directly state, or even imply, that equal retaliation from the Alliance would come by the end of Cataclysm. <3

Since the forum quoting broke down from overload, I'm referring to post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3430805957?page=140#2788
There is one, and only ONE single purpose, story wise, to attack Theramore.

They are giving a reason to militarize Jaina Proudmoore, so that there will no longer be any ambivalence in the Alliance leadership about war with the Horde.

She is a peaceful person, but if the Horde breaks their own non-aggression treaty because their one-dimensional meathead leader wants to keep waging war, that will turn even the staunchest of negotiators into arms.

Which starts the conflict going into MoP. Thrall isn't Horde anymore, Jaina is no longer looking for peace, she's looking for blood.

The story moves forward.

It's honestly a nice break from Cataclysm, which was for all intents and purposes a year and a half long Thrall fanfiction. They want war? Give em war!

Just bear in mind the Blue side likes meaningful victories every once in a while too.


You could argue she is the very reason why Theramore is a target in the first place. It was Theramore that built the road going into the Barrens. It was Theramore that helped the Alliance attack the Southern Barrens. It was Theramore that was supplying supplies to the Alliance trying to attack Stonetalon. If Jaina is the leader of Theramore than all those actions are on her head. She made Theramore a target with her own actions.
Now to the topic at hand the problem Gilneas story could have been done better I will admit that after playing through it but look at it this way before Cata Horde had nothing of real value they could lose without throwing off game balance even more. Alliance held more territories and more to lose when the Cata hit. Hillsbrad for Horde is pretty much a meta joke questline. It is the equivalent of redridge for all instensive purposes.


Again Dragomaxxor I agree with you the horde had to be on the offensive this expansion, the issue isn't that we lost things I agree with Zarhym a story about lose isn't always bad. The problem is with all the loses in Cata the Alliance had done/said nothing about them each lose is just oh we lost retreat heres your rewards and we'll never talk about this little black eye again! It would be great to have a story, a quest hell a random npc in stormwind or other cities go hmm Im really upset with the horde right now but we don't even get that. The horde is rampaging across the globe in Cata taking things left and right and the alliance is doing nothing about it, zip zero nada.

Now comes MOP and Theramore gets toasted and finally that is enough to send the alliance into a rage? I think the use of the plague to wipe out a human city or raising their dead soldiers would be a little more compelling for Varian to go Bat S*** crazy then Jaina losing her city seeing as every time hes tried to put Garrosh in his place Shes went OMG WE CANT HAVE WAR *PORTS the alliance out*.
What about Cata? Still not done here yet, and there has been plenty of instigating.

Hell, I'd be begrudgingly accepting with not seeing any retaliation until MoP if current content was finished. Truly finished, not these placeholders that we see currently. The most glaring example is the vastly differing intros to Twilight Highlands. Horde has an epic aerial armada event, Alliance was supposed to have a navel one; I heard the audio intended for it and it would've been epic too. Instead it's a silly little plane ride.

The story is being told, but in broken or tattered sections for one side. Alliance shouldn't still feel like it is missing pages in the Cata content as you level up.
We have gone over this many times in Vanilla Alliance had way more zones than horde.
Shall I compare zones in vanilla

Darkshore, Teldrassill, Redridge, Westfall, Elywnn, Duskwood, Wetlands, Dun Mogorh, Loch Modan

Those were all pretty much exclusive Alliance questing zones

Horde had

Durotar, Barrens, Silverpine, Trisfal Glades, Mulgore

It is for that reason that the horde got hillsbrad and azshara.

Now to the topic at hand the problem Gilneas story could have been done better I will admit that after playing through it but look at it this way before Cata Horde had nothing of real value they could lose without throwing off game balance even more. Alliance held more territories and more to lose when the Cata hit. Hillsbrad for Horde is pretty much a meta joke questline. It is the equivalent of redridge for all instensive purposes.

I think people need to look back at WC1, WC2, WC3. Humans and their Allies generally have been reactionary in nature and mainly only acting after the fact. Horde (old and new) are much more on the proactive side of thing. It is just the nature of the different factions, but everytime the Alliance has had a major loss they have hit back and destroyed the other side at the end of the day even if it took them being pushed into a corner to do it.


The thing is, the Horde really didn't need to lose anything. In the Cataclysm Beta, Southshore was destroyed by a Tidal Wave. They could have given the zone to the Forsaken, there, and it wouldn't have done anything to really impart any military momentum to the Horde. The Forsaken simply slide into the empty vacumn left in the wake of Deathwing's emergence. Instead, they paint Hillsbrad as a zone that the Forsaken have torn from the alliance grasp without any serious casualties, and then have them decisively winning the AV conflict by nuking the Stormpike Legion. After all that, a horde character progresses into Arathi, and you're left wondering "Why exactly are we stopping here?" It's a horrible narrative, it imparts too much momentum to the Horde, and says nothing about why they've stopped. By all acounts the Horde should be banging on the gates of Ironforge, considering that the Alliance's major presence in the wetlands, Menethil Harbor, also got taken out by a Tidal Wave.
The people misinterpreting the issue are really getting annoying. Its not the fact that Theramore is going to get destroyed. Its that bad story telling involved with it and in relation the bad story telling in general the alliance has received.

Z you can adress the feelings of bias we have talked about that have nothing to do with Theramore or MoP. The broken Worgan experiance, the Andorhal debacle ect...

Do you not see those as bias? If so how can such bias happen? If you don't see it as bias why do you not feel that way?
/popcorn
Thank you for finding the quote! It's good to be reminded I didn't directly state, or even imply, that equal retaliation from the Alliance would come by the end of Cataclysm. <3


It's going beyond being even, though. It's about one side getting to see the story in-game and the other side being pointed towards the faction change page.

Alliance: Definately the way to go if you like collecting bear asses and discussing taxes in a committee while complimenting your king on his ability to stand around for a whole expansion.

Horde: Blood and thunder! Win your honor and march in battle with your leaders!
I just want my faction to be as epic as the horde. Nothing more. Like someone else said I know all about Thrall, Vol'jin, and Gorrosh. As far as I know Alliance leaders are standing in the same spot they have been for years.
Thank you for finding the quote! It's good to be reminded I didn't directly state, or even imply, that equal retaliation from the Alliance would come by the end of Cataclysm. <3

Since the forum quoting broke down from overload, I'm referring to post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3430805957?page=140#2788


The problem is that it's getting to the point where equivilent retaliation is going to mean nothing less than wiping the horde out. Which isn't going to happen.
10/28/2011 06:07 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
You could argue she is the very reason why Theramore is a target in the first place. It was Theramore that built the road going into the Barrens. It was Theramore that helped the Alliance attack the Southern Barrens. It was Theramore that was supplying supplies to the Alliance trying to attack Stonetalon. If Jaina is the leader of Theramore than all those actions are on her head. She made Theramore a target with her own actions.


Agreed actually. She didn't directly have a hand in it, but she did enable it.

War stories are less about who is right and who is wrong, and more about who's side you relate to.

In the end I think that's what this entire conversation is about. Video games are interactive stories, and a lot of Alliance players feel like they really aren't given an choices that impact the stories. I've played all the Alliance Kalimdor quests, and they honestly do feel like "Oh, whew at least the Horde didn't kill ALL of us, right? Right?"

Ashvenvale was on of the few areas that felt like we actually DID something. I really hope more zones/quests can turn out like that. It's not fun being the whipping boy all the time.
Its also important to note that all not alliance feel this way Zar. I personally have enjoyed being the underdog this expansion and seeing the horde shine a little. Plus I know a lot of the concessions were made for questing balance. I also see that Alliance do have some victories. They push the Horde back out of Ashenvale and I'm pretty sure they kick some major butt in Feralas....but I digress...Thank you for keeping up with this and the hard work you guys are doing. I can't wait for mists.


This. I see absolutely no evidence whatsoever of bias against Alliance in this game, and in fact, this conspiracy theory is really beginning to irritate me. The only people determined to make the Alliance look bad are the Alliance fans themselves.

Stories don't have to be perfectly balanced. The worst thing that could ever happen to this game's story is for everything bad or good that happens to one faction to be mirrored by the other side. It would make things crushingly dull.

If anything, the Horde is getting the short end of the stick. They're being completely demonized while we get painted as the heroic underdogs.

Edit: I'm sorry you have to deal with this silliness, Zar. Please tell the devs not all players feel this way.
Thank you for finding the quote! It's good to be reminded I didn't directly state, or even imply, that equal retaliation from the Alliance would come by the end of Cataclysm. <3

Since the forum quoting broke down from overload, I'm referring to post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3430805957?page=140#2788


The problem is that it's getting to the point where equivilent retaliation is going to mean nothing less than wiping the horde out. Which isn't going to happen.
Uh. No. You're trying to set it up for failure is what you're doing. Why on earth would it mean wiping the horde out? Is the horde wiping the alliance out? That is nowhere near equal. Equal would be burning an important horde objective to the ground. Not wiping out an entire faction.
I propose Blizz not release any more info about Mists until it's in Beta.

It's pretty sad to see all this uproar over nothing.
We all know that one faction will not beat another faction in this universe of Warcaft. It is a poorly written story. In WC I and WC II, you had a major clear cut victories and a clear ending. In WC III it gets fuzzy and it is more like real life: sometimes you have to put down your differences and fight on the side of life. Ok, corny but I get it.

Now with this whole Asian theme of light and dark always trying to be balanced xpack... ok... I see it and it is an ok philosophy... but the real enemy is inside us, and that is all that story is: to bring inner peace so that the world has peace in balance? Ok... I don't personally agree with it and it is harder to show as a story teller: all props to you if you can do it. Again the out come? A very pale and lackluster story about.... a fragment of life: nothing really ends, no one really wins: life goes on with struggle. /shrug.

I would be surprised if one day Blizzard said X faction wins, Y faction looses, thanks for playing our game.

Again I don't play THIS particular Blizz game for lore, just for epic pieces and "challenging" bosses.

I find the lack of voices for quests or pages of "lore" boring. If Blizzard wants to pull me into the story: find voice actors and have more voice dialog or more cut scenes in the game.

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