Theramore in flames: Horde favoritism. pt. 2

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If there was a story arc in CATA where say the Horde offensive was shown causing Varian to turn to the Gnomes and use their experience with the Curse of Flesh to start a super soldier program where say 7th Legion volunteers were being "decursed" as part of a super soldier program then that would be a valid plot point.


Mind = Blown.

This needs to happen and it needs to happen right now.


You never exactly did the horde barrens back in vanilla did you. We have been trying to destroy that place since then.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Bael_Modan


I did do the Horde side back in Vanilla. Horde get a lot of quests to kill Alliance friendly NPCs. So?


Did you not read the article at all we lost the guestgiver who originally started all those attacks back in vanilla during the questchain.

The alliance also win at northwatch hold along the coast of the southern barrens.
11/03/2011 10:40 PMPosted by Elineé
or Aldor (elevator of death).

I lol'd. And yeah, that is a lot of quests which leave the player worse off than when they started.
Maybe it is just me, but I think the longer WoW goes on the more the storyline is deteriorating. If you look at the forums right now barely anyone is even talking about Deathwing and his raid. The final boss for this expac does not have the same appeal as Arthas.

The cracks in the story(done probable because of the medium) is making suspension of disbelief fairly hard. Telling us that "MoP is actually the first move in the war" when everything that has happened in Cata should point otherwise is hard to swallow.

Did you not read the article at all we lost the guestgiver who originally started all those attacks back in vanilla during the questchain.

The alliance also win at northwatch hold along the coast of the southern barrens.


So what, we lose our vanilla quest giver as well(not to mention the entire fortress!). As for Northwatch hold its kinda hard to tell if we won considering Blizz didnt even bother to phase the place(and yet they were ok with phasing Bael'modan).
Maybe it is just me, but I think the longer WoW goes on the more the storyline is deteriorating. If you look at the forums right now barely anyone is even talking about Deathwing and his raid. The final boss for this expac does not have the same appeal as Arthas.

The cracks in the story(done probable because of the medium) is making suspension of disbelief fairly hard. Telling us that "MoP is actually the first move in the war" when everything that has happened in Cata should point otherwise is hard to swallow.


I think that is part of the reason why they are moving more to the novels for telling lore stories. It is really hard to tell a good involved story in the context of WoW gameplay. Part of the problem lays in the foundations of the game. I mean it is just so hard to put in all the small details a novel can when explaining things when the only way you can do that in WoW is really long cutscenes or quest text. People want to see action in WoW. It is hard to do good characterization that way with all honesty. The short stories are really nice in regards to telling a small story but for anything bigger It would take a novel.
True, but that seems like a problem blizz should try to address. No one wants to read a book either. We want to experience the action in game.

They should have use phasing a lot more heavily in my opinion in the old world zone to show that is actually an evolving storyline. Rathar than the dead end zone stories we have now.
True, but that seems like a problem blizz should try to address. No one wants to read a book either. We want to experience the action in game.

They should have use phasing a lot more heavily in my opinion in the old world zone to show that is actually an evolving storyline. Rathar than the dead end zone stories we have now.


The problem with that is if there is too much phasing people will complain and if there is too little people will complain. It is hard to find a middle ground. I remember all the threads about phasing ruining immersion. It is hard balancing act blizzard has to do.

The one "epic" questline they have tried to tell in this expansion at max level is the Thrall one. At the end of the day that questline truth be told wasn't very good because all we did for the quests was kill some elementals until some rp happened. I think they would have to very creative with how they do especially with how much people complain about phasing.
If there was a story arc in CATA where say the Horde offensive was shown causing Varian to turn to the Gnomes and use their experience with the Curse of Flesh to start a super soldier program where say 7th Legion volunteers were being "decursed" turning them in Vrykulized super soldiers then that would be a valid plot point.


Mind = Blown.

This needs to happen and it needs to happen right now.


Thank you, I just wish something that interesting was actually happening, something that would allow for the characters to exhibit something more than simply generic rage. I'd listen to Aggra proclaim Go'El! for hours on end if it could get a cut scene with Velen relating the experience of the Draenei and debating with Varian whether such an action was wise or whether the escalation simply tempts the Orcs to start handing out felblood to their grunts.
11/03/2011 11:43 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
Did you not read the article at all we lost the guestgiver who originally started all those attacks back in vanilla during the questchain.
So Horde players get game content in reaction to things the Alliance did off-screen.

Meanwhile Alliance players get...

You see what I'm getting at here?



11/03/2011 11:43 PMPosted by Dragomaxxor
The alliance also win at northwatch hold along the coast of the southern barrens.
What are you talking about? Do the Horde even have quests over there?
Did you not read the article at all we lost the guestgiver who originally started all those attacks back in vanilla during the questchain.
So Horde players get game content in reaction to things the Alliance did off-screen.

Meanwhile Alliance players get...

You see what I'm getting at here?



The alliance also win at northwatch hold along the coast of the southern barrens.
What are you talking about? Do the Horde even have quests over there?


Northwatch is Alliance only questing if I recall. You kill Karga Rageroar who was commanding the troops attacking Northwatch. The guy wearing the worgen head.
Yeah Northwatch is one of those Alliance "and you stave off utter defeat" moments. Northwatch is not in good shape with basically the entire lower level of the fortress in ruins. One of the quests even has you collecting silverware and the parts from gnomish tool boxes to use as improvised ammunition for the cannons. It's written as being that desperate.

There aren't any horde quests directly at Northwatch but there are several out of Ratchet in N. Barrens (the border is nearby) which basically have you sink the Alliance fleet and kill the captains and crew thereof that's trying to relieve Northwatch and interdict Horde shipping. The ships are parked just north of the zone border.
Yeah Northwatch is one of those Alliance "and you stave off utter defeat" moments. Northwatch is not in good shape with basically the entire lower level of the fortress in ruins. One of the quests even has you collecting silverware and the parts from gnomish tool boxes to use as improvised ammunition for the cannons. It's written as being that desperate.

There aren't any horde quests directly at Northwatch but there are several out of Ratchet in N. Barrens (the border is nearby) which basically have you sink the Alliance fleet and kill the captains and crew thereof that's trying to relieve Northwatch and interdict Horde shipping. The ships are parked just north of the zone border.


I think I remember that quest but I thought it was more Ratchet getting pissed because the Alliance accidentally attacking their ships. I remeber the questgiver wasn't Horde but of one of the goblin factions. I might be wrong you can correct me if I am.
So the Horde players don't have to participate in THEIR failed offensives?

Meanwhile, Alliance players have to quest for defeat across Azeroth?

I think I remember that quest but I thought it was more Ratchet getting pissed because the Alliance accidentally attacking their ships. I remeber the questgiver wasn't Horde but of one of the goblin factions. I might be wrong you can correct me if I am.


I went and checked the quest text and it specifically says that Gazlowe is angry because the Alliance is attacking Horde flagged ships which is eating into his war profiteering, it never says that the Alliance has attacked Ratchet in any way.

At this point Ratchet's neutrality is little more than window dressing considering that the N. Barrens was rebuilt so that there would be even less of a reason for Alliance players to be there. I think the only quests left that Alliance can even access in Ratchet are the Wailing Cavern breadcrumb quest and another which is basically to get on a bird and fly to Theramore. I assume that the only reasons that Ratchet wasn't re purposed any further into becoming a Horde quest hub was simply prior history and the need to preserve the breadcrumb chain that reroutes Alliance players that have completed STV over to Theramore along with the associated transit link with BB (which sees only light use these days).
Oh and guys, do you want to know the real reason why Theramore is being blown up?

I was leveling my little warrior gnome, and I noticed something. When you get to your late 30s, you have a choice - Theramore or Andorhal.

It seems to me that Blizzard is FORCING alliance players to "experience their loss at Andorhal" by removing the leveling area in Theramore. Once Theramore is removed, only WPL and Andorhal remains for that level gap.

So, basically this really is a massive salt lick being shoved down our throats. No matter what the alliance completely and utterly loses at the game between levels 30 and levels 42.

Then there is 0 alliance story until Feathermoon. Then the alliance story comes to an abrupt halt until Honor hold at level 58/60.

So let me break this down for you:

Alliance questing:

* You begin the game losing all of your quests if you are Human, Worgen,

* Gnome and Dwarfs don't lose until they try to retake Gnomer.

* You then LOSE in Westfall and Darkshore.

* You then experience massive loss in Redridge. People don't normally notice this because they think "OMG I am questing with Rambo!" But almost every quest in that zone is loss. When you finish it, you think Rambo dies, but then he comes back with very little explanation.

* You do "ok in Duskwood".

* You begin the game losing in Ashenvale, until you fight the horde back to a stand still.

* You then LOSE massively in Stone Talon, with only a few "retreat and survive" quest scenarios.

* You then lose in Barrens.

* You don't realize this while questing in Arathi, but you actually come in after a couple of major alliance characters from Stromgarde LOST and were turned into Forsaken. This is completely asinine. I had to look up the characters on the wowwiki site to find out that they were killed and raised. So basically you lose, but you're not even told about it.

* Wetlands, Arathi and Hinterlands isn't a loss, but they are both sooo separated from the main storyline you have to wonder what's going on.

* When you are late 38s you have a choice Go to WPL and LOSE or go to Theramore and completely ignore the alliance vs horde storyline.

* After Hinterlands (which I already mentioned) and Desolace (which again, has no Alliance vs Horde storyline), you can go to Feralas which again has No Alliance vs Horde storyline there.

* Then you have nothing for the Alliance at all. The remaining questing is all based on Neutral quests.

* Then you wind up in Honor Hold. Nobody wins/loses throughout TBC, mostly because half of the quests are chosen via alliance with Scryers (Reformed Blood Elves) or Aldor (elevator of death).

* Then you wind up going to northrend and you have a choice - Howling Fjord, where the alliance loses, or Borean Tundra where there's 0 Alliance vs Horde storyline.

Every single time you are facing a storyline where it's Alliance vs Horde, the Alliance loses, or "barely survives". Every single time. The only victories in this questing scheme are when you are fighting an NPC, even that's starting to change in Westfall where the alliance is LOSING against an NPC with sentinel hill burning for all eternity. It was acceptable in Westgarde Keep, because the full might of Naxx was bearing down on the humans, and it directly lead to a raid where you fight back KT! That's ok. Sentinel Hill was a slap in the face.


Blizzard seems no longer happy with giving us a choice, they now want us to experience losing a war throughout 80% of our questing; and I am tired of being FORCED to lose. I was one of the few DKs on my server who could take a 46k pyroblast to my face when I was level 80 and laugh it off, yet for some reason my questing is "perpetual loss". I'm practically a god when I tank after my healer dies, and yet for some reason my questing is "perpetual loss".

I am tired. I'm not angry, I'm tired. Tired people stop playing. Alliance is becoming tired as well. I know people in my guild are tired.

Why even try anymore if all of our quest lines regarding the horde are "you lose, or barely survive but run away, or you survive and are preparing to run away"?



Your missing some KEY questing area's if this is your overall perception of the 'war' going on. Gona try to address a few of these..

First and foremost: Swamp of Sorrows is entirely missing in your list and the zone alone is a complete turn-around for the blue team. We had nearly zero questing reason to experiance the zone before the 4.0 update, and its now a good old fashioned Human stomp. The zone belongs to Alliance.
We now have a massive town of Marshtide Watch built near the center of the zone (instead of the oft-complained half built alliance camp). The 'War' between the factions is the main feature of the overall arc, we completly win, and the Human force's allow the survivor's to evacuate stonard instead of slaughtering them while they are weak.

Corporal Keeshan was epic in Redridge/Burning Steps, and even though the idea that Blackrock Mountain is still a threat (to our minds it has already been concluded [old content is old]), its still very current to the overall plot while your questing. Keeshan breaks the Dark Horde army with your help, which is just as threatening to Stormwind as Ogrimmar is. The real Horde have limited experiance with Blackrock Mnt. There is no other quest-chain in the game as epic. None! The Horde players are the ones being denied content imo. On a side note, a I cannot fathom why Keeshan has not developed the cult following of similar characters like Saurfang. Needs some high level face time imo....

S. Barrens is probally my favorite zone in the game as Alliance, we definatly do not lose, the overall picture is far more favorable than you seem to think.
-Alliance enter the zone through Honor's Stand, which the Horde is seriously PO'd that that particular base is the one controlling the roads. Your then sent to Northwatch Hold, which is snatched from the jaws of defeat and re-established as the biggest thorn in Ogrimmars side in the game. Alliance are literally TAKING horde lands, the npc you kill screams it out when you finish him off.

The Fort Triumph quest chains take place immediatly after the horde ones in Desolation Hold, your dealing with the aftermath of Horde creating abominations out of alliance soldiers, and the murder of our general. And you leave the area in a stalemate. Bael Modan was destroyed in a very underhanded way. The blue team is the one that looks like the honorable good guys here; not the abomination creating, suicide goblin bombing, Worgen Scalping horde that you are fighting against.

Ashenvale is a great zone for Alliance and Horde, both factions are fighting hard here. Horde makes some serious gains, but loses some of them afterwards. Its another stalemate. Not much to say other than I enjoyed ashenvale much much more on my alliance and horde characters this time around.

In the Western Plaguelands the Horde win, but by using the Lich Kings old tools. Its a solid win, even though all the alliance where fielding was a bunch of farmers (And Nearly WON!). Thassarian can go jump off a cliff for running off on the Alliance.

The Horde really get to cut their teeth on alliance in Stonetalon Mountains, and honestly the experiance is probally the closest thing Horde gets to red-ridge. Its an awesome zone and the entire Kromgar sub-plot is really top-notch. The Alliance lose, Horde Wins, but now they have to muster up whatever is left after dealing with both the Alliance and the Grim-Totem. The old Stonetalon Mountains, which was boring and lifeless sub-zone dedicated to getting you to Desolace and Maruaddon, its amazing what they have pulled off for either faction questing. This zone is the Horde's 'Swamp of Sorrows'.

IMO: There is largly no Bias untill you reach Twilight Highlands, the quality of the questing experiance is so diffrent its no contest. For everything else though... Read the quest text as your leveling your characters as fast as you can. :O !
First and foremost: Swamp of Sorrows is entirely missing in your list and the zone alone is a complete turn-around for the blue team. We had nearly zero questing reason to experiance the zone before the 4.0 update, and its now a good old fashioned Human stomp. The zone belongs to Alliance.
We now have a massive town of Marshtide Watch built near the center of the zone (instead of the oft-complained half built alliance camp). The 'War' between the factions is the main feature of the overall arc, we completly win, and the Human force's allow the survivor's to evacuate stonard instead of slaughtering them while they are weak.


Bull. Stoneard is still standing at the end of the questline and everything goes back to the way it was before.

When that quest starts off, the Commander of the Alliance forces in that zone flat out says that Stoneard is a threat to Alliance lands. Mind you, this is a woman whose parents were killed by the Orcs in the first invasion in these very lands.

At the end of the battle, the Alliance is IN the town and she gives the command to up and leave. Blizzard was too busy writing cutscenes about bombs and honor for the horde, that they just did a 180 on the mission and sent everybody home. No harm, no foul.

That town should have been razed to the ground and Horde players should have had to run back to Garrosh and explain that they've gotta start taking a flight path to Dreadmaul Hold if they want to get into Alliance territory.


Corporal Keeshan was epic in Redridge/Burning Steps, and even though the idea that Blackrock Mountain is still a threat (to our minds it has already been concluded [old content is old]), its still very current to the overall plot while your questing. Keeshan breaks the Dark Horde army with your help, which is just as threatening to Stormwind as Ogrimmar is. The real Horde have limited experiance with Blackrock Mnt. There is no other quest-chain in the game as epic. None! The Horde players are the ones being denied content imo. On a side note, a I cannot fathom why Keeshan has not developed the cult following of similar characters like Saurfang. Needs some high level face time imo....
No Horde player ever has to interact with Corporal Keeshan. They know nothing his awesomeness nor do they have to clean up after the pile of Orc bodies he leaves in his wake wherever he goes.




S. Barrens is probally my favorite zone in the game as Alliance, we definatly do not lose, the overall picture is far more favorable than you seem to think.
-Alliance enter the zone through Honor's Stand, which the Horde is seriously PO'd that that particular base is the one controlling the roads. Your then sent to Northwatch Hold, which is snatched from the jaws of defeat and re-established as the biggest thorn in Ogrimmars side in the game. Alliance are literally TAKING horde lands, the npc you kill screams it out when you finish him off.
If by TAKING you mean "Hanging on to a base we've had for years" and getting the rest of our stuff blown up by Horde players.




The Fort Triumph quest chains take place immediatly after the horde ones in Desolation Hold, your dealing with the aftermath of Horde creating abominations out of alliance soldiers, and the murder of our general. And you leave the area in a stalemate. Bael Modan was destroyed in a very underhanded way. The blue team is the one that looks like the honorable good guys here; not the abomination creating, suicide goblin bombing, Worgen Scalping horde that you are fighting against.
There was no stalemate in Southern Barrens. Horde players get to blow up a longstanding Dwarven base AND and Alliance player along with it.

The Alliance takes out a mine that isn't even marked on the map and the Horde players are never made aware of it.




Ashenvale is a great zone for Alliance and Horde, both factions are fighting hard here. Horde makes some serious gains, but loses some of them afterwards. Its another stalemate. Not much to say other than I enjoyed ashenvale much much more on my alliance and horde characters this time around.
This is the closest Alliance come to a victory anywhere in Cata, and that victory is pretty much just them unleashing Furbolgs on the Horde.

On the other hand, unless a Horde player has to report back to Garrosh, or some other commander, that they've been overrun by bear people and have to retreat, it doesn't really count as a win.




In the Western Plaguelands the Horde win, but by using the Lich Kings old tools. Its a solid win, even though all the alliance where fielding was a bunch of farmers (And Nearly WON!). Thassarian can go jump off a cliff for running off on the Alliance.
It's not even a solid win. Thassarian leads a group of farmers to the verge of victory and then, for no logical reason, runs off to rescue the inept Horde commander and tells everybody "battle's over, we give up, go home."

Mind you, this is the SECOND Alliance vs. Horde quest chain that ends with the Alliance commander giving up at the last second.
So the Horde players don't have to participate in THEIR failed offensives?

Meanwhile, Alliance players have to quest for defeat across Azeroth?


You're just being picky.

Story is story and quests are quests. Why does it matter what the end result is?
Basically you're saying "Yes we have lots of story but we lose so therefore it's not Alliance story and that's not good enough."


It's NOT good enough. I don't play this game to be an NPC in a Horde questline.

If Alliance players have to play on the losing side of a questline, it's not out of line that Horde players be expected to do the same.

Why the !@#$ should I quest in Western Plaguelands? Why should I participate in a story were my defeat is certain? What MORON thought that was a good idea?

Why should I quest in Stonetalon? Why would I want to participate in a storyline where I clean up after the Horde bomb us?

Why should I quest in Southern Barrens? Why would I want to volunteer to jump in a plane knowing it's going to trigger a cutscene that blasts me out of the sky?


Not only is Blizzard beating us, they're telling us to go out and pick our own switch.



Where's the Horde quest that puts them in Frazzlecraz Motherlode as it's caving in?

Where's the Horde quest where they have to pick up the pieces of Horde bodies after failing to stop Keeshen from hitting their outpost?

Where's the Horde quest where they have to go back to Garrosh and explain that they were on the verge of victory when their commander decided to run away at the last second?
Yes stonard is there, but still the lady-general and the alliance by proxy are being more magnanimous than vicous. Their forces have been defeated and killed, the town is being cleared out, we just dont get to see the Horde physically lose their hub.

Northwatch hold was always friendly toward Alliance players, but it was ex-Kul'tiras marines and soldiers who manned it. There was no interaction as a player with the town. Now we break the siege on the town, and defeat the opposing general. Horde lose.

Bael Modan was never an Alliance base pre 4.0, it was a Dwarf excavation camp on Titan ruins. The base does look impressive now though, and alliance seem to get here chronologically before the horde infiltrate. We defeat the massive Tauren hunter party only to miss the sabotage going on in the backround. Horde and Alliance lose.

I do have to say... that Keeshan idea of yours is awesome....the Horde version of the Broken front... :D

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