Feel like I've reached my skill cap.....

Paladin
Lately I've been feeling as though everything just comes natural, and there's not much more I can (aside from gear chants etc.) to make myself a better tank.

Are there any barely known tips/trick anyone has for me as a pally tank?
I just wanna be the best tank I can possibly be and anything extra would be nice.

Edit: I've perused the stickies several times, as well as tankspot and elitist jerks info.
Edit 2: Also aside from the obvious welfare enchants, am I doing everything else right?
You're losing out on a GREAT DEAL of stats by blindly stacking mastery gems.

Also: Therazane shoulder enchant, work on it.
Great tanks dont come from gear, they come from situational awareness. They know what is going on all over the encounter. They know if they're ranging the healer, they know when to pop what kinda CD's and they know when to pop offensive abilities.

An example, our warrior tank used to tell our raid leader back in wotlk (the last expansion i did pve seriously) that he can pop shattering throw in a bit. If it was a multiple tank encounter, he's wait till another tank had the aggro, if it was a single tank encounter, we'll set it up so that a pally would bubble, then taunt the boss while he stance change and use shattering throw and tell the raid leader to order a blood lust.

I remember that back in TBC, on fathom lord in SSC our MT DC'd and we had killed all the adds. It was our first best shot at that boss so there was a panic however our feral druid, who was an OT on that encounter immediately went bear and started putting threat and took the MT's place.

I know these little things sound simple but they addup. Knowing your class and more than just your spec helps alot. Try pvp'ing and you'll learn fun and creative ways to pop your CD's
get out of the 5 mans and into a progression raiding guild. somewhere where the dps is GOOD, as well as everyone else.

you can't get better unless you play versus better people, or those who demand more. so try to do that.

pvp could teach you some new tricks, all of them might not apply, but at least if you went ret for a while you might optimize your understanding of timing or something like that. maybe even playing around your latency?

stacking mastery isn't a terrible idea, but not optimal. some of the socket bonuses from using the correct gem for every socket would help you some. the really good players are always min/maxing everything (even the latency issue) so start doing that.
Are there any barely known tips/trick anyone has for me as a pally tank?
I just wanna be the best tank I can possibly be and anything extra would be nice.


Do you tank with an addon like healbot?

Are you aware of your raids hp at all times?

Do you know when a dps has aggro and has no way to get it off like vanish?

Do you make liberal use of your hand spells....ALL OF THEM.

How often do you use Divine Guardian?

Do you throw out Healing spells from time to time?

Do you have a divine shield cancel macro to quickly and effectively remove debuffs? A divine plea cancel macro spell to pop a clutch WoG?

Do you clear your co-tanks debuffs with a quick HoProtection followed by HoFreedom?

Do you use hand of sacrifice on your co-tank/healers regularly?

How is your movement? Hit in the back much? Good at strafing? Do melee have to move much to attack the boss?

Good at keeping track of your healer? Know when they are at 80%/50%/15% mana? Know when your out of range? Know when they are incapacitated?

You get out of bad stuff quickly?

Do you using HRad in aoe pulls for quick and easy healing aggro?

Good at knowing when to use a cd like holy shield on cd and when not too?

Are you good at getting the heal out of AD?

Do you do our complicated single target rotation (including inquisition) every time flawlessly?

Most importantly every time you die...you either have a cd up or they are all used up? Right?

Dragons never tailswipe your party do they?

You keep track of CC?



If you are good at all this then congrats you are a much better tank than me.

If not then you still have much to learn young paladin. Paladins are easy to learn, but hard to master.
go pug a FL and see..
Ceylnd, this is why I heal 85

Is everyone alive?

Is someone about to die?

Is someone debuffed that I can cure?

Am I punching the boss?

If we wiped did I have cds off cd?

Did I use aura master early or when I was supposed to?


Much less to pay attention to than tanking XD
Lately I've been feeling as though everything just comes natural, and there's not much more I can (aside from gear chants etc.) to make myself a better tank.

Are there any barely known tips/trick anyone has for me as a pally tank?
I just wanna be the best tank I can possibly be and anything extra would be nice.

Edit: I've perused the stickies several times, as well as tankspot and elitist jerks info.
Edit 2: Also aside from the obvious welfare enchants, am I doing everything else right?



Well first some talent things.

Pick up Pursuit of Justice in your ret tree. The free 15% movement speed is just epic and I believe in next patch it will stack with your windwalk. Anyhow that leaves a core rule to tanking: It is better to have a consistent stat rather than RNG. Yes I know windwalk is RNg, but if there was another viable enchant, I'd take that over windwalk.

So, drop the guarded by the light talent. We can't back to back spam word of glory anymore (I miss you 4.0 WoG :( ) so wasting talent points into something we can only use every 20 seconds is bleh at best. Besides your vengeance stacks will make your WoG heal hard enough.

Next max out your reckoning. This is one of the best DPS talents you can have. But wait, did I just say you should have DPS talent as a prot pally? YES! Even though threat becomes a moot point after the first 20 seconds of a fight there is still a significant need for a prot pally to do DPS. It is apart of skill capping, and I'll show ya.

So in order to max out your reckoning and pick up PoJ you are going to drop some points from another talent. You can choose between Hallowed Ground and Rule of Law. I personally took out a point from rule of law, mainly because when I did respec my guild was on Lord Rhyolith for progression and I wanted to maximize my AOE. I just never changed my spec back around. Plus I dislike RNG.

Now for some skill capping.

Max out your DPS.
Since you have aggro established, know how to use your cooldowns, and I am assuming a fairly decent tank. Take time to perfect your rotation. Think of it this way, if you had two prot pallies applying for your guild and you were all about progression, would you take the prot pally who could do everything a prot pally could do and pull 15k DPS or would you take one that could do 3k? Your DPS does matter when it comes to progression boss fights. Besides perfect execution of rotation means you will have flawless threat and fights like Alysrazor where you need to kill an add quickly will become trivial to you. Not to brag, but every time we do that fight, I always beat my co-tank by 25% or so in killing our adds.

Learn 2 chain pull.
This is something that will make pugs in heroics drop their mouths. This scales with your gear, and how good you are at positioning. But try to practice in your next random heroic pulling an extra pack with your normal pulls. If that goes well, try to pull two. And so on. You'll notice when things will get dicey, and at that point you need to pop cooldowns and slow it down. But you will have a better understanding. Last night my guild did a heroic five man achievement run and like any good and serious guild 3/5 of our members were intoxicated (myself included) so I decided to push the envelope. (I believe we were all joking in vent about how we are elitist trolls, so we starting !@#$. My famous line was "What the %^-* hoof (healer) , I just pulled the whole damn room, admire the skill level! " ) So that is something you can do.

Keybinds.

If you haven't already, Keybind everything you can. If you are new to keybinding, start off with four or so keybinds and get yourself familiar with them. Then add four more, and then four more and so on until you have all your skills bound. Your fingers can move faster that your eyes/clicking so please keybind! It will make you a better tank ten fold because your reactions will be quicker. Also, key binding gets the most out of our Ardent Defender talent as we can use it at the last second to save ourselves, and also lay on hands (saved me countless time doing a quick LoH on myself.)

Finally I leave you will this,
Maximize all of your tools.

We pallies have epic utility spells. Learn how to use them in ways you wouldn't normally.

One of my favorite discoveries was the use of Divine Guardian outside of an AOE situation. I believe it was Beth'ilac (sp?) where I had an realization that I could pop DG while I am off tanking to apply another cooldown to my tank outside of ,my Hand of sacrifice to help mitigate some damage. Also remember you have Lay on Hands (I can't tell you how many times I have saved healer/DPS/even my co tank from dying with a quick lay on hands. ) and even a vengeance revved word of glory can save a person. So try and get in a habit of using your utility spells, also realize that this goes hand and hand with your situational awareness. So develop that too.


And I reached the character limit! But I just wanted to say leave you with this.

I started back in BC. It was a !@#$%. We had to roll on spell power weapons, we have no cooldowns, and we were essentially porcupine tanks. Oh and the lack of mana regen... ugh. And you had to spam consecrate for threat!

Anyhow, there was a lot of pally hate back when I started and I would read article after article to disprove people that said pallies couldn't tank. I found some good websites and some good articles. And I remember something I read that I'll quote.

"Not many people understand pally tanking, but once you have mastered it is the best thing in WoW "

I have been tanking hardcore ever since. (Some odd five years or so) and never once have I ever been burnt out of tanking or it's joy. I have some some pretty crazy stuff (15 minute heroics ftw. ) and yet I still always look for way to improve. So just keep at it and you'll be surprised how amazing you can be.

Take care and happy tanking.
11/14/2011 05:12 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
The free 15% movement speed is just epic and I believe in next patch it will stack with your windwalk.


It stacks currently.

11/14/2011 05:12 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
So, drop the guarded by the light talent. We can't back to back spam word of glory anymore (I miss you 4.0 WoG :( ) so wasting talent points into something we can only use every 20 seconds is bleh at best. Besides your vengeance stacks will make your WoG heal hard enough.


This is really really bad advise. GBTL is one of the best talents there is. It can give you a 100k antimagic bubble if you coordinated with healers and use the right abilities/cds. Also it makes sure WoG is never wasted. But besides all that it makes WoG stronger and for that alone its worth taking.



11/14/2011 05:12 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
So in order to max out your reckoning and pick up PoJ you are going to drop some points from another talent. You can choose between Hallowed Ground and Rule of Law. I personally took out a point from rule of law, mainly because when I did respec my guild was on Lord Rhyolith for progression and I wanted to maximize my AOE. I just never changed my spec back around. Plus I dislike RNG.


HG is the 2nd worst damage talent we have while RoL is more in the middle. Not only that, but RoL increases our survival too. The points in HG should be in GbtL. If you want to max out PoJ then your choices are Reckoning/GrC/RoL.

RoL is the lowest threat of the three but gives survival benefits in increased wog crit rates so it usually between GrC and Reckoning. GrC is considered a fun talent and gives lots of utility and aoe threat so its usually maxed and the point is dropped from reckoning. HOWEVER, if you want max damage or a higher proc rate on windwalk/SoI the point should be taken from GrC. This is of course assuming you really want to max PoJ.

Other than that good post.
Oh it wouldn't be WoW if someone nit picked and decided to flex their epeen. Fortunately I rather enjoy this...


It stacks currently.


Doesn't the tooltip on PoJ say it does not stack with other movement improving effects? I could be wrong and I'll check it out. If so awesome. I'd still take something static over some RNG however.

This is really really bad advise. GBTL is one of the best talents there is. It can give you a 100k antimagic bubble if you coordinated with healers and use the right abilities/cds. Also it makes sure WoG is never wasted. But besides all that it makes WoG stronger and for that alone its worth taking.


I can't think of anything that I have to time a big absorption shield in firelands. Bale'roc would be a candidate but I don't tank him often and even when I do, my trinket and glyphed DP handle inferno blade rather well. 10% more healing and an overheal turned to shield is nice. But it simply doesn't happen enough for me to consider it worth it. I am seldom at 100% health while a boss is on me. And even if I was, it's gone in a few seconds. Now unless you can show me something with a graph or the like, then I'll change my opinion.



HG is the 2nd worst damage talent we have while RoL is more in the middle. Not only that, but RoL increases our survival too. The points in HG should be in GbtL. If you want to max out PoJ then your choices are Reckoning/GrC/RoL.


So... you are using single target DPS to gauge the use of something for AOE situations. High five! If you read my post I used HG for Rhyolith. The reason being we single tank the fight and I fight it exceedingly useful to drop consecrate on my healers and range, run out HoR any stragglers and bring them all together.


As for the rest of the talents you mentioned. I am going to go check. I could be wrong there.

Edited in:

RoL is the lowest threat of the three but gives survival benefits in increased wog crit rates so it usually between GrC and Reckoning. GrC is considered a fun talent and gives lots of utility and aoe threat so its usually maxed and the point is dropped from reckoning. HOWEVER, if you want max damage or a higher proc rate on windwalk/SoI the point should be taken from GrC. This is of course assuming you really want to max PoJ.


Nope.

It is as followed. (Past Sacred Duty and Wrath of the Lightbringer, which you and I can agree are epic talents. )

Reckoning > Grand Crusader > Rule of Law / Crusade > Seals of the Pure > Judgements of the Pure > Arbiter of the Light > Hallowed Ground / Eye For an Eye / Eternal Glory

For threat/DPS.

Want the math? Check this out. http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29589

Maybe I did bad while taking a point out of Rule of Law, but I told you exactly the reason why. I may shift things around, but I am a tank who tailors his spec to his needs.

11/14/2011 08:43 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
Doesn't the tooltip on PoJ say it does not stack with other movement improving effects? I could be wrong and I'll check it out. If so awesome. I'd still take something static over some RNG however.


I think its because its a temporary buff as opposed to permanent one.

With the loss of Agi->Dodge, this analysis becomes pretty boring. Windwalk is still the only game in town. Blade Ward or Mending would be the "cheap" alternatives for the budget-conscious. Note that Windwalk's speed boost does stack with Pursuit of Justice, unlike the boot enchants.


http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=593317#p593317

But it simply doesn't happen enough for me to consider it worth it. I am seldom at 100% health while a boss is on me. And even if I was, it's gone in a few seconds. Now unless you can show me something with a graph or the like, then I'll change my opinion.


This is where you are going wrong with your reasoning on the talent. Just because you dont use it much does not mean its not worth it. When doing farm content do you use GoAK much? Does that mean its not worth having on your bars?

Talent like GBTL earn their keep during that short period of time where you are almost dead and they prevent a wipe. Its a life/raid saver and thats why its included in every guide and why theck of maintankadin has it as part of his cookie cutter.



11/14/2011 08:43 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
So... you are using single target DPS to gauge the use of something for AOE situations. High five!


More like aoe is not as important as single target (unless you are talking about creating a 2nd spec just for aoe tanking). We can maintain aoe threat without HG easily and its crappy 57 dps per point takes four adds before it becomes worth it over RoL (and provides NO healing benefit). How many times in FL do you tank more than 4 mobs IN THE SAME SPOT at once?

Shannox? No. Beth? Your kiting so no. Baleroc? No. Major domo? No. Aly? No. So that leaves only rags and Rhy where its worth its keep and picking up the fragments is not hard and its not worth the loss of a life saving ability like GbtL.

Not to mention you can drop cons on your healers WITHOUT HG.

Also please loose the attitude. Im being respectful with you.



11/14/2011 08:43 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
Reckoning > Grand Crusader > Rule of Law / Crusade


Let me quote myself:


RoL is the lowest threat of the three


if you want max damage or a higher proc rate on windwalk/SoI the point should be taken from GrC


IE Reckoning is higher threat. By a whopping 10dps between the 2nd point of GrC and Reckoning:

DPS per point
Vengeance --------100%------ --------30%-------
hit%/exp --2%/10--- 8%/26 --2%/10--- 8%/26
Talent W39 939 939 W39 939 939
Base 0 0 0 0 0 0
Hallowed Ground 57 57 60 36 36 38
Reck (1st point) 256 346 409 167 226 267
Reck (2nd point) 229 310 366 150 203 239
RoL 176 191 230 116 126 152
Grand Crusader (1st point) 270 258 198 167 160 127
Grand Crusader (2nd point) 286 297 295 176 184 185


So what are you saying nope too? Everything i said was correct.

And since you're Acquainted with maintankadin and Theck:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29589



For the Tier 4 point, you have quite a few choices. You can obviously go back and fill Seals of the Pure or Eternal Glory. You also gain Improved Hammer of Justice from tier 2, which reduces the cooldown on your stun (useful for LK specs). In tier 3, we have Hallowed Ground, which is a weak single-target DPS increase but a fairly noticeable benefit when AoE tanking due to the mana reduction. However, neither of these are recommended, because in Tier 4 we add Reckoning to the mix. Reckoning is the largest single-target DPS increase available to you at this point.



For the Tier 5 points, you add Guarded by the Light and Divine Guardian to the mix. The first point is just a minor increase to WoG healing, but the second point gives you a very useful overheal shield. Divine Guardian is an incredibly potent raid cooldown that can be game-breaking on some encounters. I think most players are best-served by picking up Divine Guardian and Guarded by the Light. They're both incredibly potent when used wisely, and your only other choices are all threat talents (Reckoning, Hallowed Ground, Eternal Glory) or gimmick/utility talents (Imp. HoJ).



Grammar edit: you're and your.
Bane, you brought a knife to a gunfight.

Cel is right :)

Gbtl is the hotness. It should be taken in all specs. A free EH boost is never a bad thing. Hg compared to gbtl should be a no brainer.


Do what I did, get weak auras and set it to track gbtl bubbles and their values. It's pretty significant how often you will have a 20k+ bubble on you.

Oh it wouldn't be WoW if someone nit picked and decided to flex their epeen. Fortunately I rather enjoy this...


The irony of this statement made me lol.
I think we sorted out the PoJ part. That is great and I didn't know it.

Now on to other stuff.

Hallowed Ground, worked for me. Unless I am mistaken I said time and time again I tailored it specifically for a specific boss that we were progressing on. I did not say "pick hallowed ground it is the best." I just simply was either lazy/forgot to switch things back around. It happens. Real life has been busy for me, so I have been just logging in to raid/pvp and not doing much else.

11/14/2011 05:12 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
I personally took out a point from rule of law, mainly because when I did respec my guild was on Lord Rhyolith for progression and I wanted to maximize my AOE. I just never changed my spec back around. Plus I dislike RNG.


But we can agree elsewhere.

Guarded by the Light. I am still not convinced so I am asking around. Be back on that one. I checked around MT for opinions and I was noticing there is some various opinions. So I made a topic and I am going to ask.

Also please loose the attitude. Im being respectful with you.


You'll have to forgive me. I am rough, blunt and thick skinned. I know not many people share those traits with me. And it often times offends people with more delicate personalities.

Bane, you brought a knife to a gunfight.

Cel is right :)

Gbtl is the hotness. It should be taken in all specs. A free EH boost is never a bad thing. Hg compared to gbtl should be a no brainer.


Do what I did, get weak auras and set it to track gbtl bubbles and their values. It's pretty significant how often you will have a 20k+ bubble on you.

Oh it wouldn't be WoW if someone nit picked and decided to flex their epeen. Fortunately I rather enjoy this...


The irony of this statement made me lol.


Hey hey maybe I like to fight an uphill battle while being a little sarcastic. Read above, I am checking into it. And I can be wrong, only until I am shown. :P I am rather set in my ways, but they can change. I remember back in the start in cata, I was going through some bad !@#$ in my life and I started heroics in full stamina gems. Yeah I learned mastery real fast once I took the time to read stuff.


We are doing rag tonight with some of our newer guys. I think I'll try putting GbtL back into my spec. What was that add-on call? Weak Auras?
I had the same initial knee jerk reaction when they nerfed wog in 4.2. I specced out of it for like 2 weeks... Then looked at the numbers and started tracking it more closely. Id never build a spec without it now (even the bastard child spec I have right now).

It's pretty significant, and pushing into hard mode fights where healer mana is very tight... Gbtl is one of those talents that you really really really should have. Your first kills (since most hard mode 10s are 2 healed) your healers will likely be on fumes with no tricks left on your first kills. Every absorb you can put on yourself is worth it's weight in gold.

Yes, the mod I track it with is weakauras. Power auras will work just as well and is easier to setup. Until blizzard actually makes the gbtl tooltip read its absorb amount, there is no way outside skada/wol to track the values, just when it is up.
11/14/2011 10:50 AMPosted by Bàneslayer
Hallowed Ground, worked for me. Unless I am mistaken I said time and time again I tailored it specifically for a specific boss that we were progressing on. I did not say "pick hallowed ground it is the best." I just simply was either lazy/forgot to switch things back around. It happens. Real life has been busy for me, so I have been just logging in to raid/pvp and not doing much else.


From the way you said it along with advocating skipping GBTL it sounded like you were recommending it for general purpose tanking. For that i apologize.

That said, id like to re-emphasize (for new tanks) that HG is bad for anything other than:
1) A 2nd aoe focused tanking spec
2) A gimmick fight spec...which from this post is what im guessing you have.

I will admit that i have heard that HG is good for rags but i havent even seen that fight >.<

BUT...If your a new tank and reading this always assume that HG&JotP* are bad...cause on the vast majority of fights they are.


*In fact everything in holy is bad save Last Word which requires sacrificing too many good talents to get.
I had the same initial knee jerk reaction when they nerfed wog in 4.2. I specced out of it for like 2 weeks... Then looked at the numbers and started tracking it more closely. Id never build a spec without it now (even the bastard child spec I have right now).

It's pretty significant, and pushing into hard mode fights where healer mana is very tight... Gbtl is one of those talents that you really really really should have. Your first kills (since most hard mode 10s are 2 healed) your healers will likely be on fumes with no tricks left on your first kills. Every absorb you can put on yourself is worth it's weight in gold.


Ok, so in that case. I am going to test this out. I think I might be wrong here. If two more people are saying it... how do you use WoG with that talent? If memory serves... I use to spam WoG on myself at times back when it had no cooldown. I can't remember, this whole year has been werid!

I got an opportunity to test it tonight.

What did you use to track it?
11/14/2011 11:04 AMPosted by Celyndrashad
Hallowed Ground, worked for me. Unless I am mistaken I said time and time again I tailored it specifically for a specific boss that we were progressing on. I did not say "pick hallowed ground it is the best." I just simply was either lazy/forgot to switch things back around. It happens. Real life has been busy for me, so I have been just logging in to raid/pvp and not doing much else.


From the way you said it along with advocating skipping GBTL it sounded like you were recommending it for general purpose tanking. For that i apologize.

That said, id like to re-emphasize (for new tanks) that HG is bad for anything other than:
1) A 2nd aoe focused tanking spec
2) A gimmick fight spec...which from this post is what im guessing you have.

I will admit that i have heard that HG is good for rags but i havent even seen that fight >.<

BUT...If your a new tank and reading this always assume that HG&JotP are bad...cause on the vast majority of fights they are.


All the above is true.

And I apoloigize too, I am going to check out GbtL tonight and probably come back here advocating it again.

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