VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

General Discussion
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Ohs, I R Sry, i wll l2 read rite away. Tnks 4 pointin that out......O and btw, i don't sk1m commentz. Sum ppl switch mainz so who carez if alts are just as g34red? ........Boy that was tiresome.... Please, don't hurt yourself trying to take offense to something i pointed out. There is no rule stating that your main must be your only main and thus the highest geared toon. My "main" was a warlock when i started, then a dk, paladin,hunter,mage,and shaman. Some have no set "main" and have no clear cut favorite. Who cares if anyone wants to gear their alts up with the same tenacity or lack therof they did with their main? If the playing field is supposed to somehow be worse as you level alts and get them to more difficult content, then what is the point of even leveling and gearing them?
11/17/2011 09:09 AMPosted by Kohzere
One step closer to eliminating welfare tier!
I, too, find it deeply personally troubling when people who are not me get things that are nice which I may own. Let's go tut into our tea and wear top hats while dismissing those damn, dirty 'casuals' and their welfare epics.

Bash, are we going to get off-set items for EVERY slot on VP vendors or are those who continue to be victimized by a capricious RNG going to continue wearing stuff they've pulled out of a dungeon in lieu of raid level gear?


If you don't raid, then why would you want raid gear? I'll tell you why. Because you see someone else who has cool gear from raiding and want it for yourself without having to work. You want to join a dungeon, kill a few bosses, then go easily spend points to get gear. It's pretty sickening what has become of this. If you don't raid, you have 0 use for raid gear. It's as simple as that so stop being jealous and play the game. If you want the reward, complete the challenge to get it.

/end rant.
SO.... you want people to want to kill raid bosses more for better loot rather then grinding out the VP for the vp gear... so you make raid bosses drop less but make the Random finder drop more? this must be a good plan. i think maybe possably or ... not i think more likely..

easiest fix..... make VP Gear cost more...
not as easy fix..... make the item level less then the boss gear. not alot less but alittle less... why should my bought gear be the same level as my won gear.. just drop the item level and values a tad bit so that people will want them.. but will want the better thing off the boss if they want better.
The only issue I see to this plan, and forgive me if it has been brought up alreay, but you might want to allow more variety in the gear drops. It seems to me that my guild winds up dc'ing gear because it is always the same, Leather, Leather and an occasional Caster Plate, not always in that order. If your going to force people to get gear off of raid bosses then the drop rates need to be changed or equalized. This is just my opinion though.
Even though he clarified... just one less reason to run through the logistical troubles of getting 24 other competent raiders vs 9. how dead do they want 25 mans? we asked that at least the achievements be split, and we got a "maybe"!!!!!! "that seems like a good idea", but now everything is on par.

call me crazy but (incoming semi math!!!). the incentive for running 25 mans would be more gear drops but uhm isn't there more people in 25 mans vs 10(25 does seem like a bigger number than 10)? doesn't 10 man have a higher loot per player in raid than 25? meaning 10 ppl get a chance at 1 tier token while 25 people get a chance at 2.... see the ratio difference? there is a 2.5x difference and now only twice the loot!!! three times the difference would be an incentive along with server first 25man and achievements vs everything meshing together.....

They drop this bomb AFTER people opt in to the annual pass.... is it to late to cancel that !@#$? I'll just buy diablo and say F wow like the other 3 or 4 million that have left. play MoP for a bit and then sporadically with each patch like always.
I don't understand how anyone could call this a good change. Most people I know detest troll heroics now because we've been forced to run them over and over again to get vp capped. The only thing this changes is that we can no longer get capped from raiding, but the people who would be getting capped from raiding would be doing heroics anyway to fill in gaps because they want to get every advantage possible. Makes no sense compared to the pvp change in terms of choosing your own way.
AS a MM Hunter I have exactly 3 BiS items which are VP. If you look at my armory profile (Thivaldi Elune Alliance) You will see I have more than that equipped. Why? RNG drops cloth and strength plate almost every time, every raid. Be lowering the VP available and making all tier items drop from raids, it really seems the RNG should be made smarter and less seemingly un-random. I really do not enjoy raiding for three months and only seeing the "second" set so to speak drop for Hunters/Enhance Shammys while our DK is fully geared in both specs and our priest healer is too. You can't have this both ways.
I've been saying for years that ALL bosses need to drop tokens like for instance, heroic Vancleef would drop a Heroic Vancleef token, which you could hover over to see what gear you can trade it in for, then everyone who needs any peice can roll on the token. Same thing for every raid and heroic boss.

This would eliminate the RNG crap.
Agreed. In past expansions I had the time and desire to play alts which kept me busy and playing for months and months keeping the game somewhat "fresh". In this expansion I just don't have that desire, the alts I have took some time to gear up for raid ready and right now I only have 1, a second on its way. Both were born out of necessity in case we need a role filled on a guild raid someone isnt available for.

Im not clamoring for "easy mode" and honestly some parts of Wrath may have been cake but a lot of it I found challenging but also enjoyable. Ulduar without a doubt has to be my favorite instance in Wrath and one of the top of the game overall. The design, detail, boss fights, everything was well laid out and you could tell care was taken in its design. I like challenge as much as anyone else, challenge keeps the game interesting, but there seems to be some sort of design philosophy at Blizzard in dealing in extremes. Like trying to do precision woodcraft work with a chainsaw, nothing is ever just enough, its always not enough or too much.

The most successful raids in this game in my opinion were in BC. The fights were challenging, tho Vashj and Kael were a little bit of a guild killer roadblock. Mana counted, you couldn't just /yawn spam your way to healing victory, tank damage was realistic and not "OMG WAS THAT A FREIGHT TRAIN THAT HIT ME!?!?!" and stats overall weren't so ridiculously inflated. Cata didnt do that in raids tho the claim was it was going to go back to that level of intensity and challenge, instead we got Interrupt or Die fight gimmicks.

Back then killing an end instance boss for me was noteworthy and impacting. I remember our first Vashj kill, Kael kill and Illidan kill and how the victory was such a rush, no one in the group gave a damn if items dropped were sharded because the trip and effort to get there was so well earned it felt awesome to beat those fights. Even the bosses along the way felt like a rush from the victory. Since then, I havent had that feeling at all. Closest ive gotten is "thank god we got that guy down, that fight was such a pain in the !@#". The sense of satisfaction from defeating these encounters has just been lost in a sea of everything but the kitchen sink being thrown at you under the guise of "challenge". Thats why those people left, when you design a fight so that one minor mistake causes a raid wipe regardless who it is, no one wants to feel that kind of pressure from a game.



You hit the nail on the head in much of this post. This is practically my third post in a video game forum and the only reason I do so is because I'm afraid that this game is taking a turn in the wrong direction. Keeping World of Warcraft alive is all about making it fun to play alts. The game can be challenging but it has to be accessible and fresh to remain fun. Playing a single toon gets boring. The past was fun because alts allowed the variety to keep things fresh...it's the only thing that changes often enough to make the game enjoyable over time. It's the only thing that "we" control as a player. Please hear this message dev's. Because I guarantee that the majority of people that never visit a forum for "video games" share, and have left WoW over, this view.

I feel that GC is mixing work with pleasure and you shouldn't always take the loudest voice to heart. People vote with their wallets, not exclusively on forums. And I am sure that I am not alone when I say that my friends list is but a fraction of what it used to be. It's not too late to fix this, people WANT to love World of Warcraft. But there are some developers that are making it "challenging" for them to do so. The key is accessibility. The key is variety. The key is efficiency. We don't pay monthly fee's because of the cd's and grinding. In fact that is why we are leaving. Listen to us, please. Let us love you
I agree with Kohzere and Eridan.

There needs to be better end-game content/activity choices than simply beating one's head against the RNG for gear pieces (PvE) -- assuming one even has the insane number of hours available to complete that many raids.


rng is a key factor that kills this game for me in many ways.

blizzard likes it that way, apparently...

sigh...what can you do...

I, too, find it deeply personally troubling when people who are not me get things that are nice which I may own. Let's go tut into our tea and wear top hats while dismissing those damn, dirty 'casuals' and their welfare epics.

Bash, are we going to get off-set items for EVERY slot on VP vendors or are those who continue to be victimized by a capricious RNG going to continue wearing stuff they've pulled out of a dungeon in lieu of raid level gear?


If you don't raid, then why would you want raid gear? I'll tell you why. Because you see someone else who has cool gear from raiding and want it for yourself without having to work. You want to join a dungeon, kill a few bosses, then go easily spend points to get gear. It's pretty sickening what has become of this. If you don't raid, you have 0 use for raid gear. It's as simple as that so stop being jealous and play the game. If you want the reward, complete the challenge to get it.

/end rant.


I want raid gear for the same reasons that you do, because it makes my playing experience easier overtime. No, I may never live a lifestyle that allows me to raid in the capacity that you do, with the players that you do, but at least I am able to see the results from what time that I CAN give. I shouldn't have to run the same dungeons in 4.2 five months later wearing the same gear that I got over the summer. How boring is that? It should get easier. It should get fun. Do you know how awesome it is to have a he-man moment, saving a group that would have otherwise wiped??

It's not fun wiping in raids, it's not fun having raids fall apart time and time again. If i have to choose over ease and raids failing then you know my choice. As it stands now, World of Warcraft is fun to play several times a month. But you and I both know how little can be accomplished in doing so.
It's not fun wiping in raids, it's not fun having raids fall apart time and time again. If i have to choose over ease and raids failing then you know my choice. As it stands now, World of Warcraft is fun to play several times a month. But you and I both know how little can be accomplished in doing so.


But then why are you playing this game? That is what this game has been about since inception and considering that this game reached closed to it's peak subscriber base during BC - and that certainly wasn't a walk in the park - what you are asking for is a redesign of what made the game great in the first place under the guise of making it "better".

The best games are those that offer challenge - that is what most players enjoy about games, overcoming a challenge. The gear system in WoW was designed to be the reward system for overcoming that challenge.

I see time and time again arguments along the lines of "but who cares what other people are wearing?" and yet the notion that this somehow does not affect the entire player base is absurd. By removing the step ladders for people to move into and upwards in raids that existed in BC Blizzard did accomplish getting more newer people into gear that they would otherwise not have gotten - in the process however also multiplied the number of people that have ZERO experience on boss encounters or what a raid is actually like.

So with the increase in accessibility with gear we get, and there is no way of saying this gently, are more retarded player base. People who have no clue what to do in a raid and expect other people to teach them. The problem is, with the constant readjustment of the "current content" being made obsolete every time there is a patch, guilds that actually want to progress are forced to find geared/experienced people to fill placements cutting out those newer places.

In the end you have this gap the size of the grand canyon between the guilds that raid successfully and the newer players with the newer players finding it harder and harder to get into raiding because that ladder has been removed.

Instead of restoring that ladder, we now have the new "Raid Finder" which is quite possibly one of the worst ways I can think of to put a ladder back in. The idea is to get new players interested in raiding. You do this by having a system that encourages players to form guilds and start having a go at content. This is easiest done in 10 man as it is far easier to get 10 people to raid.

This was one of the primary keys to success in BC - you had a 10 man raid that introduced people to raiding and was essentially step one after heroics. New people got to look for and find people within their server to make those guilds and start progressing and this made the basis of the recruitment base for the rest of the raiding guilds, allowing thousands of people to raid at multiple different levels in the game and it really was WORLD OF WARCRAFT. Raid finder instead is going to be putting these same new people who are trying to get into raiding in a group of unknown people, who are most likely not on your server and may not even see twice and you expect this to work? This does not promote new players into raiding - the experience pugging random raids with strangers from other servers is only going to exacerbate the attitude, childish stupid antics that people get up to now and make those new players think "god that was horrible I will not bother with raiding".

Now what does that have to do with gear in the first paragraph? Earning gear is part of progression. You kill something, you get a reward you feel good inside - that is the basis of WoW. By making the gear accessible to everyone, you diminish the value of that gear as a whole - making that little feeling inside feel more numb. Sure you may feel good you got that piece of gear, but on the whole the value of the gear is diminished. When you diminish the gear reward, you diminish the drive to get that gear. That turns into less satisfaction killing a raid boss because you essentially have the attitude of "Well I can get that same stats piece from the VP vendor so who cares if I killed that boss" which coupled with the lack of a ladder and you end up?

A game full of people who do not bother trying, don't give two ^%$#'s about their fellow players, who can't be bothered joining guilds, who want every reward the game has to offer with the minimum possible effort and then crow that they have their gear and feel allmighty.

And people wonder why the community has gone the way of the dogs the last 2 years - no-one is caring any more.
Personally I always thought it felt punishing to 10 man raiders to have less valor on raid bosses because it forced us into 5 man heroics while 25 man raiders got to skip those altogether assuming max number of boss kills. How is that fair when both sets of raiders are pretty much in game to raid not dungeon farm.

I definitely appreciate FL bosses dropping 50 valor - that will still feel very rewarding when I'm trying to do raiding and avoid so much dungeon grinding on all my alts.

As for the actual amount of gear dropping off bosses - sure I'm concerned, but at the same time I see us farming this for a very long time so it might work out in the end. Also, there will be plenty of upgrades in the new 5 mans and the valor vendor to allow us to make decent progression (hopefully) without having to get the tier or BiS pieces to drop for us.
Conquest have a weekly cap but you can have over 50k conquest points sitting, Justice points and Honor does have a 4k cap.
I simply still do not understand how this change actually does what they claim, without lowering the cap people will just be forced to run heroics to accommodate and still get VP gear as fast?

Also heroics being able to get more VP than raids is down right stupid. I mean VP is raid level loot, if it was 5 man loot I would understand. Really stupid change that was not thought out at all.
It seems to be one announcement contradicts the spirit of the other.

On the one hand (valor), you're saying - no guys you have to actually do the highest content in order to get the highest rewards. On the other hand (conquest), you're saying - no guys you don't have to do the highest content - just spam random battlegrounds and brute force your way to the highest gear.

I'd like to ask that you clarify the reason for these two contradictory messages - both announced simultaneously no less. =/


^^^

I don't pve much but usually try to be decently geared when I do and not wearing pvp gear so therefore this "play how u want when u want" doesn't make sense to me with this new change so I also would like if you could clear this up.
11/19/2011 05:09 AMPosted by Elm
Personally I always thought it felt punishing to 10 man raiders to have less valor on raid bosses because it forced us into 5 man heroics while 25 man raiders got to skip those altogether assuming max number of boss kills. How is that fair when both sets of raiders are pretty much in game to raid not dungeon farm.


Um, maybe because 25 man raids are more difficult, have more complex mechanics, and are much, much, much much more difficult to actually put together.

Once Burning Crusade started, the primary focus has always been 25 mans. Unfortunately, Cataclysm has been shoving 10 mans down everyone's throats, now that they drop the same item level loot as 25 mans. 25 man guilds have been an endangered species since the expansion dropped, and they are continuing their decline, because there is no incentive, and even less in 4.3.
So let me get this straight, mr. rantman...You're saying "YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO BUY WHAT IVE WON"..That's really lame..What if someone has killed every single boss you have and more, and is still not getting the drop and has no other way to buy them? Not only that but there is no set "Raid Gear" for anyone. If you want to feel more hardcore and better than everyone else sitting in SW/Org, then go stroke that epeen in some heroic raids and get over yourself. They should ABSOLUTELY go back to the way wrath was in the sense that you could have a "VP set", a normal set and a heroic set with the appropriate tokens. With the drastic difference in color scheme and tendrils coming off the gear, you could tell who had done what. There has been no post here asking for epics delivered in their mailbox when they hit 85. You are the minority, accept it...Go do the harder content and stop B#&$^ing about people who have nice gear. It isn't going to affect you whatsoever..If you think they bought all their stuff and are somehow inherently fail, then don't group with them! Geez...
11/19/2011 04:03 AMPosted by Virtutis
It's not fun wiping in raids, it's not fun having raids fall apart time and time again. If i have to choose over ease and raids failing then you know my choice. As it stands now, World of Warcraft is fun to play several times a month. But you and I both know how little can be accomplished in doing so.


But then why are you playing this game? That is what this game has been about since inception and considering that this game reached closed to it's peak subscriber base during BC - and that certainly wasn't a walk in the park - what you are asking for is a redesign of what made the game great in the first place under the guise of making it "better".

The best games are those that offer challenge - that is what most players enjoy about games, overcoming a challenge. The gear system in WoW was designed to be the reward system for overcoming that challenge.

I see time and time again arguments along the lines of "but who cares what other people are wearing?" and yet the notion that this somehow does not affect the entire player base is absurd. By removing the step ladders for people to move into and upwards in raids that existed in BC Blizzard did accomplish getting more newer people into gear that they would otherwise not have gotten - in the process however also multiplied the number of people that have ZERO experience on boss encounters or what a raid is actually like.

So with the increase in accessibility with gear we get, and there is no way of saying this gently, are more retarded player base. People who have no clue what to do in a raid and expect other people to teach them. The problem is, with the constant readjustment of the "current content" being made obsolete every time there is a patch, guilds that actually want to progress are forced to find geared/experienced people to fill placements cutting out those newer places.

In the end you have this gap the size of the grand canyon between the guilds that raid successfully and the newer players with the newer players finding it harder and harder to get into raiding because that ladder has been removed.

Instead of restoring that ladder, we now have the new "Raid Finder" which is quite possibly one of the worst ways I can think of to put a ladder back in. The idea is to get new players interested in raiding. You do this by having a system that encourages players to form guilds and start having a go at content. This is easiest done in 10 man as it is far easier to get 10 people to raid.

This was one of the primary keys to success in BC - you had a 10 man raid that introduced people to raiding and was essentially step one after heroics. New people got to look for and find people within their server to make those guilds and start progressing and this made the basis of the recruitment base for the rest of the raiding guilds, allowing thousands of people to raid at multiple different levels in the game and it really was WORLD OF WARCRAFT. Raid finder instead is going to be putting these same new people who are trying to get into raiding in a group of unknown people, who are most likely not on your server and may not even see twice and you expect this to work? This does not promote new players into raiding - the experience pugging random raids with strangers from other servers is only going to exacerbate the attitude, childish stupid antics that people get up to now and make those new players think "god that was horrible I will not bother with raiding".

Now what does that have to do with gear in the first paragraph? Earning gear is part of progression. You kill something, you get a reward you feel good inside - that is the basis of WoW. By making the gear accessible to everyone, you diminish the value of that gear as a whole - making that little feeling inside feel more numb. Sure you may feel good you got that piece of gear, but on the whole the value of the gear is diminished. When you diminish the gear reward, you diminish the drive to get that gear. That turns into less satisfaction killing a raid boss because you essentially have the attitude of "Well I can get that same stats piece from the VP vendor so who cares if I killed that boss" which coupled with the lack of a ladder and you end up?

A game full of people who do not bother trying, don't give two ^%$#'s about their fellow players, who can't be bothered joining guilds, who want every reward the game has to offer with the minimum possible effort and then crow that they have their gear and feel allmighty.

And people wonder why the community has gone the way of the dogs the last 2 years - no-one is caring any more.


So somehow other people wearing nice gear is going to "dishearten" you from getting yours??? I highly doubt it. I've seen people join guilds and then in turn see the GMs and officers act like total @##es to them and couldn't be bothered to explain anything to them and then blaming those for wiping the raid.There's only so much a video or a website is going to give a person learning fights.No one is asking for free epics so you would be offbase to think so. More avenues to get nice gear would be a welcome change for a lot of players, i really really doubt you or anyone else here speaking like that are going to just give up because you see someone else in less awesome gear than you. If you want them to learn fights, teach them...If they don't want to learn, kick them. If they act like pricks report them. But please, above all else....stop the "virtual snob" attitude.
The way I see it, Blizzard is slowing down obtaining gear for the raiding guilds...and forcing the casual raiders to use the raid finder. I'm all for eliminating welfare gear. Just do it. This sounds like Blizz is planning on extending the release of the next expansion by a couple months.

How about something meaningful, like separating PVE/PVP? Over the last 7 years, one seems to always impact the other (not for the better).

6 years ago, we ooooh'd and ahhhhh'd at the people in MC raid gear, and said "that's who I want to be"!

Today we ooooh and ahhhhh at something new....for one day...because the following week, 5,000 people have it...yay.

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