VP Changes to 4.3 PTR

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I don't like this change much. But then, I think forcing people into the 25 man cattle call raid finder is a load of garbage.

Sure, it's voluntary, and you don't "have" to do it, but so many changes have been done with the caveat of "since the Raid Finder will this" or "Due to the Raid Finder"

I'm not running 25 man content. I don't like it. I don't like the number of people in it.
I'm certainly not running 25 man content with up to 24 people I don't know. The RDF has proven that PuGs fail at things that guilds don't.

So. Either the Raid Finder will be massive loot pinata's that 10 people could kill, or it is going to be the next massive fail. Either way, I'm not interested.
I feel like I'm missing something here. What it sounds like is I'll need to run more 5mans on top of raiding to get valor capped every week. Raiding is my focus, I should be able to valor cap while raiding current content (something I can't even do now when clearing Firelands every week).

You can't say getting valor capped is optional for raiders. Not to mention that even capping valor only allows you to get one piece of gear every 2-3 weeks.

It sounds like things are being slowed down so we don't get tired of the content too fast.
So wait, run a 5 man random heroic (even normal heroic), get 150 VP, kill a raid boss in 10 or 25 man (quite a bit more difficult than running a normal heroic), get 100 VP. Yes this makes sense. *FACEPALM*

So I'll have to do a full clear AND run 2 heroics a week to VP cap....
I'm a very casual, two-night-a-week raider. I rarely do anything else in game anymore, and that's fine with me. Raiding is, therefore, my only source of gear, at least for now.

I enjoy the raiding with friends. I intensely dislike pugs, so I almost never use the dungeon finder. I am not inclined to try the raid finder unless it's with a large pre-made guild group with just a few puggers (I'm assuming that's possible).

Your stated goal of reducing valor and deemphasizing valor rewards feels like pressure to use the raid finder. If anything, I think you should go the other way with valor. I understand the desire to make boss drops special and epic-feeling, but we all know the RNG problems that causes. (I'm still wearing a blue helm because Beth won't drop my new one.)

The gear itself isn't really that big of a deal to me, but I don't like the implicit pressure to pug (there is enough of that with the dungeon finder valor treadmill). It feels manipulative on the part of the designers.
We kill bosses for valor?

This is news to me.

Also can we get clarification on the current number of items dropping on the 10 man PTR versions of dragonsoul? Is it intended to drop tier+1 item per token boss?
Less incentive to raid overall. Can't say that I'm surprised.
I am on a causal 10 man raid team that runs 6-8 hours a week. If the intent is for players to acquire gear through boss kills, then perhaps we can also take a look at what gear is dropped by bosses. As the only druid (leather/INT wearer) on the team, I received almost all of my normal Firelands gear within 4 weeks. From that point on, all leather/int items get sharded. Can we do something about gear drops that takes into account the raid makeup?

I am sure it is not the intent that 100% of the gear dropped is used, though would it be possible to have the loot tables dynamically adjust according to raid makeup? For instance, if there are absolutely no leather wearers in the raid, reduce the leather drop rate by 50-75%? If there are 4 plate wearers, maybe turn up the plate drop rate by 25-50%.

Just an idea. Anyone else have any suggestions?
[quote]I , but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.


Then how about you allow players to turn Valor into Justice Points and Conquest into Honor points?
11/17/2011 09:23 AMPosted by Bashiok
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding


Any clarification on what rewards?

There was talk about giving 10s two tier tokens, which would remove the only current benefit of raiding 25s, an extra 2.5 tier tokens per instance.


This isn't talking about the legendary either, which is whole other mess.
Is valor starting to outlive its usefulness?

11/17/2011 09:09 AMPosted by Kohzere
One step closer to eliminating welfare tier!
I, too, find it deeply personally troubling when people who are not me get things that are nice which I may own. Let's go tut into our tea and wear top hats while dismissing those damn, dirty 'casuals' and their welfare epics.


Why do people who don't raid need raiding gear?
I'll have to say relying on boss drops is pretty scary for my 10man raid group. There are pieces in FL that we haven't seen drop at all in this patch. For instance, 15 domo kills and never seen a staff; 18 baelroc kills and never seen the tanking helm. Some pieces did finally drop but took months to get. I know its not the point of this thread, but is it really alright for some raid groups to farm a boss for 4 months and still not see all of their loot at least once?

Anyway, I agree with others in this thread that this change doesn't affect how quickly you gear up from VP, since you aren't changing the weekly cap. It will only change how much time you have to spend each week to hit the cap. I am however concerned with the philosophy that raid groups should be depending on boss drops for gear considering how harsh RNG can be for 10mans.
We kill bosses for valor?

This is news to me.

Also can we get clarification on the current number of items dropping on the 10 man PTR versions of dragonsoul? Is it intended to drop tier+1 item per token boss?


Until you start doing Heroics yes you do care about Valor as a raider. Once you start doing Heroics, the dependency for VP drops off rapidly (I'm sitting on a TON of VP at the moment, I'd sell off bracers if anyone would buy them). So to make it seem like you don't care about the VP at all in raiding is kind of silly (ignoring the fact that you're a level 1).
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding.


I thought you already covered that by making 10-man harder and making legendaries impossible to earn in a reasonable amount of time?
11/17/2011 10:00 AMPosted by Thuro
For instance, 15 domo kills and never seen a staff; 18 baelroc kills and never seen the tanking helm.


We got 1 staff and 0 helms on normal mode, but we seem to get 2 staffs and at least 1 tanking helm a week on Heroic. I think half our 25 man raid has the staff off Domo now. :( Random is Random!
11/17/2011 09:29 AMPosted by Divinedots
We want to try to match the lower desire for VP with a slightly slower acquisition rate.



This logic is completely flawed. Anyone who wants to progress in PvE content, casual to hardcore, wants any upgrade available (tier or not).

At least just come out and be honest....you want ppl to keep queueing for the 3 new 5mans & LFD to earn VP for more then a few weeks. Stretching content.


I can understand how they want content to last a while, but yeah, I don't think forcing top-end players to go slumming their way through random dungeons is the way to do it. It just causes friction in the group when you have 2 players who want to blow through the instance to the end boss as fast as possible and another 2 players who want the points or gear available from every boss, with one guy who just doesn't care.

And next expansion, you'll get valor points from questing? Really? "Valor" points have kind of lost their luster, haven't they?
11/17/2011 10:01 AMPosted by Tharyl
Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding.


I thought you already covered that by making 10-man harder and making legendaries impossible to earn in a reasonable amount of time?


Judging from 4.2's progression, 10s was significantly easier and they've admitted there was a disparity in difficulty.

Also, it was incredibly poor design to make it possible for nothing to drop in 10s for the first part of the legendary quest. However, with the hotfixes to the end portion, it's actually better to run 25s for the first several parts, then run 3 10s for the siphons.

Edit: To keep that criticism constructive, why wasn't it thought through with the rest of loot in 10/25s in mind? Keep the ratio, 1:2.5, it might be a bit boring to not have wildly random numbers, but at the same time, it'd keep things even between 10s and 25s with legendary progression.
11/17/2011 09:33 AMPosted by Dsc
Now with the new looking for raid tool, there is no reason to not just eliminate valor all together,


The difference might be that some people have time to raid (whether that be LFG or not) and others only have time for a dungeon.

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