4.3 Raid Finder Loot Rules

General Discussion
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HAVING SAID THAT, I do kind of agree that the whole Spirit -> Hit for SHADOW PRIESTS seems kind of dumb. For druids and shaman it makes some sense, it prevents Blizz from having to make separate +spirit and +hit int leather and mail when only one class uses each of those armor types.
The point was mostly because druids and shamans are capable of gearing up both a DPS and a healer set simultaneously (Since resto/ele and resto/balance share a gear set). Paladins can't because ret doesn't use int, which meant priests would be left out, needing to get two sets of gear for DPS and for heals. So, Blizzard gave shadow priests spirit to hit to balance it out.

With that said, there's no spirit cloth that drops in Dragon Soul anyways.
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Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Will mages and warlocks get a bonus on +hit cloth items? After all, we're pretty much the only ones that don't get any sort of roll bonus... :\

Like, spriests can get all cloth items. Mages and Warlocks cannot. I know the pures vs hybrids thing has been done to death, but this is yet another example of us getting the shaft.

Hit is by far our best stat (as it is for spriests, obviously), but they get it from double the items. There has to be a way to even that out for us pures. Especially since we don't have any other source of +hit.
11/24/2011 12:07 PMPosted by Waniou
HAVING SAID THAT, I do kind of agree that the whole Spirit -> Hit for SHADOW PRIESTS seems kind of dumb. For druids and shaman it makes some sense, it prevents Blizz from having to make separate +spirit and +hit int leather and mail when only one class uses each of those armor types.
The point was mostly because druids and shamans are capable of gearing up both a DPS and a healer set simultaneously (Since resto/ele and resto/balance share a gear set). Paladins can't because ret doesn't use int, which meant priests would be left out, needing to get two sets of gear for DPS and for heals. So, Blizzard gave shadow priests spirit to hit to balance it out.

With that said, there's no spirit cloth that drops in Dragon Soul anyways.


So you're saying that SPriests were given spirit -> hit to keep them from being the odd man out, when there's already an odd man out (Paladins)? I kind of don't buy that, or rather I think it's a poor design choice when viewed in context of the other healers.

There are 4 heal-capable classes in the game...

Druids can use spirit+int leather to heal or DPS. This makes sense from a gear-implementation standpoint, because only Boom/Resto Druids use int leather. It prevents Blizzard from having to make two distinct sets of loot for a single class, on top of the Agi leather they already share with Rogues.

Shamans (Shamen?) can use spirit+int mail to heal or DPS. This makes sense from a gear-implementation standpoint, because only Ele/Resto Shamans use int mail. It prevents Blizzard from having to make two distinct sets of loot for a single class, on top of the Agi mail they already share with Hunters.

Priests can use spirit+int cloth to heal or DPS. This does not make sense from a gear-implementation standpoint, because spirit does nothing for mages nor warlocks, necessitating the creation of hit+int cloth anyway.

Paladins can play all 3 roles and have absolutely no overlap in their gear. Str DPS gear doesn't work for tanking nor healing, Str tank gear doesn't work for DPS nor healing, and Int healing gear doesn't work for DPS nor tanking.

The problem is the system doesn't conform in any particular direction. Priests are like the druid and shaman in that spirit helps them heal AND dps, but then we have the Pally healer that is left completely out. Druid and Shaman are the only Leather and Mail classes that use caster stats at all, so it makes some sense that all caster stats can benefit them to streamline itemization, but then we have a variety of cloth classes, and only one out of seven DPS specs among them has any use for spirit.

Spirit -> Hit for SPriests would make more sense to me if there wasn't a completely separate gear type (Int plate) created for Paladins. If int plate didn't exist, and Holy Paladins had some kind of talent (or built-in perk) that gutted their melee damage but gave them spellpower for Strength and allowed hit (or maybe expertise?) to increase mana regen, then the SPriest situation would make more sense to me, because then all 4 healers could use the same/similar gear stats for healing and DPS.
Lot of people who never completed a raid are complaining about welfare epics. Oh no I hope the value of my imaginary internet items with purple names doesn't depreciate, I was hoping to sell them to the baseball card collector for millions of dollars. It's mature to be angry about other people experiencing content in a video game they pay for just like you.

Also something about Blizzard not "respecting" you because you once considered bottles of Mountain Dew a viable alternative to restrooms.
11/24/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Terrorific
Will mages and warlocks get a bonus on +hit cloth items? After all, we're pretty much the only ones that don't get any sort of roll bonus... :\
You will. I do believe you'll also get a bonus on spirit gear, because otherwise elemental shamans and boomkins wouldn't be able to.

EDIT: @Verz, you're entirely right, but what you've gotta remember is that int plate has been a thorn in Blizzard's side for a while and if they could get rid of it in a way that isn't messy, they would.
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Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
Ok, I have an idea:
Tag every piece of gear for every possible spec/class/role and when it drops let only those in the raid matching the criteria roll for it. If you're the only one, you automatically get it.
Failing that, I suggest that since everyone feels they should have the gear they want, implement a new option whereupon the completion of a raid results in one random piece of gear tailor-made to your spec/class/role being mailed to your character. Also, add a feature that keeps track of what is sent to you to prevent getting multiple boots, when what you really wanted was a helm.
Really its the only way to prevent everyone from feeling ripped off and claiming they got "ninja'd", even though we're all aware there is no such thing as a ninja in a need/greed roll system.

Problem solved, I think.
Tank:

Agility Leather (for druids)

Strength plate with tank stats on it

Trinkets with tank stats

Trinkets with Agility (for druids)


translation if a rogue and a druid tank are in the same group agility leather and agility trinkets will automatically give the druid a +100 to roll bonus cause theyre in tank role while rogues get nothing just another disguised attempt to punish players for not being a tank

they need to better refine these loot tables and think them through before this goes live because its only going to lead to certian classes getting more loot than others


I can only assume you're trolling because you can't possibly be this dense.
One more time...

ALL Agility Leather is DPS leather, ALL Agility leather wearing dps classes get the need+ roll.
NO leather is tank leather, to balance it for druid tanks they get the need+ roll.
Rogues, Hunters, Shaman and Druids ALL get the need+ roll on agility trinkets.
NOW do you understand??
11/24/2011 01:14 PMPosted by Hackur
oh i understand quite clearly rather than take time to fix loot rules to benefit ALL classes and roles instead they throw out some illconceived concept and gives certian classes an advantage in loot dispersal
Who's getting an advantage? I can't see any one class getting an advantage over another class and the only problems I can see right now are that cloth casters can need+ on spirit accessories, blood DKs might not be able to need on their weapons and plate DPSers can need+ on agi stuff (Which I think should be fixed by making them not able to need on things with agi).
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Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859



oh i understand quite clearly rather than take time to fix loot rules to benefit ALL classes and roles instead they throw out some illconceived concept and gives certian classes an advantage in loot dispersal over others they might as well make ML the only loot rule available at least that way when players join raids they wont have a reason so open any tickets over a loot dispute then the wait time on tickets for complaints will drop since they know GMs wont be there to intervene on loot drops


Ok, definitely a troll
11/24/2011 12:33 PMPosted by Waniou
You will. I do believe you'll also get a bonus on spirit gear, because otherwise elemental shamans and boomkins wouldn't be able to.


I don't think this is the case. The system cannot differentiate between SPECS, it did not say it cannot differentiate between CLASSES. Your logic doesn't follow that this class has to be able to roll on this stuff because this other class gets to.

Every class gets a separate system for what they get priority on. Priests get priority on such and such loot, druids in this role get priority on such and such loot. Hybrid classes get priority on spirit gear because spirit is equivalent to hit, and there is no caster leather or mail with hit on it. Thus all caster leather and mail qualifies as healer or DPS gear.

This is not the case for spirit cloth. Mages and warlocks have no such conversion talent. Spirit is a DPS stat for shadow priests ONLY. They won't get the +100 to their rolls on spirit cloth because spirit on cloth is a priest stat only.

Edit: Not that you'll need to worry about this too much in the coming tier anyway, as there is only one spirit cloth drop.


Tank:

* Agility Leather (for druids)

* Strength plate with tank stats on it




DPS:

* Mostly everything that doesn’t have a tank stat on it



Just wondering about those true hybrid gear, like Plate with Hit and Mastery.
DPS are gaining a bonus for these but not tanks? Or they are both flagged for bonus for DPS and tanks?
11/24/2011 01:40 PMPosted by Vyneda
I don't think this is the case. The system cannot differentiate between SPECS, it did not say it cannot differentiate between CLASSES. Your logic doesn't follow that this class has to be able to roll on this stuff because this other class gets to.
You might be right, but the impression I got from what's been said here and in the past is that the system can only differentiate between roles, not between specs or classes. This is why they had to make so all tanks can Need+ on agi accessories, just so that bears would be able to.
-----
Attack tables, diminishing returns and you!
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2489160859
11/24/2011 01:28 PMPosted by Sorcies
Ok, definitely a troll


He is, or just completely dense anyway. He's had the entire concept explained to him about 10 times by various people and he's not seeing past his own whining.
11/24/2011 01:55 PMPosted by Waraila
Ok, definitely a troll


He is, or just completely dense anyway. He's had the entire concept explained to him about 10 times by various people and he's not seeing past his own whining.


It probably all went over his head.
11/24/2011 01:53 PMPosted by Waniou
You might be right, but the impression I got from what's been said here and in the past is that the system can only differentiate between roles, not between specs or classes. This is why they had to make so all tanks can Need+ on agi accessories, just so that bears would be able to.


Tank:
•Agility Leather (for druids)
•Strength plate with tank stats on it
•Trinkets with tank stats
•Trinkets with Agility (for druids)


Hmm. See, I don't read this list as saying: All tanks will be able to roll Need+ on agility trinkets because the bears use them for tanking, although it certainly looks that way at first. I read it as: Druids that are in the tank role will be able to roll Need+ on agility trinkets, because that's what they use for tanking.

Thus I apply the same thing to the spirit gear. I don't think it will be 'all DPS specs will able to roll Need+ on spirit gear because we needed the moonkins and the elemental shaman and the shadow priests to be able to.'

I think it means: Shaman, priests, and druids in the DPS role will be able to roll Need+ on spirit gear.

I mean, doesn't it already work this way? DPS Shaman will be able to roll on spirit gear. Let's say it did mean that DPS mail users would be able to roll on spirit gear. Doesn't that mean that hunters would be able to roll on spirit gear?

No. Why? Because hunters can't roll on gear with intellect. Why can't the same thing be applied to spirit gear? I know there is a difference between having a Need+ roll versus being able to roll on something at all, so I may be completely wrong. But there are class-based restrictions on Need rolls currently, is it impossible to have class restrictions on the Need+ roll?

Edit: I'm sorry if I'm not making too much sense, I'm not so good with words lately.
11/24/2011 02:23 PMPosted by Hackur
i guess well just have to wait till players start losing loot due to the new rules before people realize this system WONT work


No you refuse to read what others have posted on the subject. Here I'll state it again for you.

Leather item drops that has agility on it.

Druid tank rolls
Druid dps rolls
Rogue rolls.

They all get the + need bonus on said roll taking their roll from 1-100 to 101-200. This means it's equal across the three, No-one has an advantage or disadvantage... they all get the same range in the loot roll. Now sure you can still lose the roll, but it's fair still to all three, as they all have an equal chance at obtaining it.

Agil trinket / neck / ring drops.

Druid tank rolls
Druid dps rolls
Rogue rolls
Hunter rolls
Enh shaman rolls

All 5 of these get the + need bonus on their rolls as they all use it and it's for their class.

So druid tanks do not get an advantage as there is no tanking stat on leather. Tanking stats are block / dodge and parry. I've yet to see any of them on leather since burning crusade.
11/24/2011 02:29 PMPosted by Waraila
i guess well just have to wait till players start losing loot due to the new rules before people realize this system WONT work


No you refuse to read what others have posted on the subject. Here I'll state it again for you.

Leather item drops that has agility on it.

Druid tank rolls
Druid dps rolls
Rogue rolls.

They all get the + need bonus on said roll taking their roll from 1-100 to 101-200. This means it's equal across the three, No-one has an advantage or disadvantage... they all get the same range in the loot roll. Now sure you can still lose the roll, but it's fair still to all three, as they all have an equal chance at obtaining it.

Agil trinket / neck / ring drops.

Druid tank rolls
Druid dps rolls
Rogue rolls
Hunter rolls
Enh shaman rolls

All 5 of these get the + need bonus on their rolls as they all use it and it's for their class.

So druid tanks do not get an advantage as there is no tanking stat on leather. Tanking stats are block / dodge and parry. I've yet to see any of them on leather since burning crusade.


It's a lost cause, he's trolling... or just too damn stupid to understand simple english but I'm going with trolling.

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