4.3 Raid Finder Loot Rules

General Discussion
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alright, blizz, scrap this whole LFR thing, too many people are complaining about it, and it hasnt even been made live
stop giving them their welfare epics and cater only to people who deserve them
you know, the people who work for their stuff, not just grind dailies or dungeons with mechanics that a 5 year old can comprehend(yet people still fail...)

all you people saying this and that about it, without even reading what bash is saying
1. shut up, you dont deserve to have your voice heard if all your going to do spout is the same nonsense, despite things being clearly explained numerous times
2. do a premade, if youre worried about losing out on gear to someone, at least its someone that you know/from your server
3. go do the actual raid, dont bother yourself with all that, maybe the lfr isnt for you, go be master looter and you wont lose out on ANYTHING

gear not going to people that need it more than another person has happened ever since LFD came out(even before, but it became more prevalent with LFD) so stop whining that this isnt going to work, because its the best system blizz has made since the game came out that doesnt require a master looter.
11/25/2011 03:47 PMPosted by Gnoblish
hello mister fail warrior, THE TANK STAT FOR DRUIDS IS AGILITY, kthxbai


hello tard, where do you think druids get dodge from?? the freaking dodge fairy?????? no, agility, its how druid tanks get dodge, also mastery is a tank stat, but also dps

this lfr system seems so far fail all around

if dodge and parry are the ONLY tank stats, why do druid tanks get the bonus roll for agility leather..hmm??....oh thats right agility is a tank stat for druids...........


Excuse me? What right do you have to call people repulsive names? The reason Dodge and Parry are the tank stats is because only tanks can make full use of those stats to fulfill their duties.

Agility is a primary stat that both tanks and several damage dealers use. Because both tanks and several DPS can use it, it was not meant to be classified as a tank stat. Let's look at the original post again.





If you're in a raid as one of the below roles here is what you'll receive a roll bonus on:

Tank:
  • Agility Leather (for druids)

  • Strength plate with tank stats on it

  • Trinkets with tank stats

  • Trinkets with Agility (for druids)


DPS:
  • Mostly everything that doesn’t have a tank stat on it

  • Spirit gear (for elemental shaman, shadow priest, and moonkin)

  • Trinkets that trigger on damaging spells/melee hits



You can see for the Tanks' Need+ rolls, there are separate bullet points for agility trinkets for druids and trinkets with tank stats on it. Would this imply that Agility is not exclusively a tank stat?
Having it so that all DPS gear can be 'need'ed by all DPSers means I can roll on warlock gear, while the warlock rolls on spriest gear, and the rogue rolls on mage gear. Unless I'm reading this wrong, (sure hope I am, many thanks if anyone can correct me), this is pure freaking stupidity. Better than the current 'need before greed' system, yes; but still an extremely sad state of affairs.

As for the idea that anyone whose uncomfortable with it shouldn't try it, I concur. The idea of spending an hour or more in an instance with no reward and no rules in place to console you that you stand a reasonable chance of getting one the next time does not appeal to me. Better to find a raiding guild where you can at least complain to the GM.

Keep trying Blizzard. I know you can do better. I have confidence. May the pandas deliver us.
11/26/2011 09:27 PMPosted by Asenath
Having it so that all DPS gear can be 'need'ed by all DPSers means I can roll on warlock gear, while the warlock rolls on spriest gear, and the rogue rolls on mage gear. Unless I'm reading this wrong, (sure hope I am, many thanks if anyone can correct me), this is pure freaking stupidity. Better than the current 'need before greed' system, yes; but still an extremely sad state of affairs.


Plate users can only Need+ roll on plate gear, mail users can only Need+ roll on mail gear, leather users can only Need+ roll on leather, and Cloth users can only Need+ roll on cloth gear. Mages and Warlocks cannot roll Need+ on spirit gear. Priests (whether they are dps or healing) can Need+ roll on spirit gear.

The only issue is Enhancement shamans can roll against elemental shamans; Elemental Shamans can roll against enh Shamans and hunter for agi gear. Boomkins can roll against rogues and feral druids for agi gear, while feral druids (non-tanks) can roll against Boomkins and Resto druids.

Blizzard has ALREADY said that they know of the issue and intend to implement a "spec" search in 5.0 that will narrow down the Need+ even further.

Also when dealing with accessories (neck, rings, cloaks, trinkets) if it has dodge or parry (or in the case of a stamina trinket) as a secondary stat, only tanks can roll Need+ on it. If it does not have a tanking stat (meaning Crit/mastery, crit/haste, mastery/haste, mastery/hit, etc) then they have the same chance as the dps of the same primary stat on the item (Strength goes to plate users, Agility goes to the Agility users).

The other discrepancy, and this has been reported yet no blue post has been stated about it, is for weapons. Currently DKs, Paladins, and Warriors can Need+ on Agility weapons due to the fact that they can equip that type of weapon, even though Agility does not grant much to their damage. As a reverse, agility users can Need+ on Strength weapons if they can equip it (Druids Need+ on the 2H Mace, Rogues Need+ on the tanking sword, etc).
http://i.imgur.com/NyWpg.jpg

This is somewhat messed up. The above picture is a screenshot of a Ret Paladin I have on the PTR. I was hitting need on everything when the need button popped up to see what I would get the bonus for. As it turns out it gives me the role bonus on INT rings and whatever as long as it doesn't have spirit on it. Cause Ret Paladin is flagged as DPS, and they are flagged as being able to use INT because of a holy spec.

So the system gives Role Bonus for a ret paladin on a caster INT ring because it can't tell the difference between melee dps and caster dps.

While the actual holy paladin in the raid gets no bonus cause it has hit i guess lol
Not 100% related, but Im curious if we will see a shift to separate tanking leather in MoP since there will be two specs that could utilize it. IE, getting more mit directly off of tanking stats rather than through a secondary mechanic.

Would eliminate at least some overlap between the two ferals, rogues and melee dps monks.

This of course brings up the fact that Druids will now be the only tanks of 5 that cant parry which throws a bit of monkey wrench into things. Maybe they will grow thicker paws in MoP :P
11/27/2011 07:10 PMPosted by Theodin
Not 100% related, but Im curious if we will see a shift to separate tanking leather in MoP since there will be two specs that could utilize it. IE, getting more mit directly off of tanking stats rather than through a secondary mechanic.


It is certainly a possibility. I was actually thinking that since Bears and Kitties are being separated further, that both would have their own tier sets. This would allow for more dodge-related stats to show up on leather. On the same train of thought, it would make sense to add dodge-related leather that both Bears and Brewmasters could use.

We don't know if Monks will be able to parry or not. It's possible that they will, but given the source of the gear (leather) we just don't know. It could end up that both Monks and Druids are unable to parry. It's either that, or we could start seeing parry on leather.
Pretty good overall... but I want to point out that some of us hybrid caster dps/healer types actually would legitimately roll for caster gear with +hit on it (while being in a healing role), thanks to abilities such as telluric currents. Probably not the optimal gear choice for a healer, but it likely would make both specs viable enough to be able to stick with one set of gear.

I've considering making my second spec change from enhancement to elemental, this loot roll rule might make it less attractive for players like me. I realize there is more to consider here than my personal situation, but its worth mentioning.
If I understand the Need before Greed system correctly, it already is fairly active in restricting who can roll on what. A DK, for example, can only roll on Plate and can't roll on Agi trinkets and such.

As a suggestion, wouldn't it be simpler to create more rolls? Internally tag gear for what roles it's supposed to be used for, and then allow the players filling those roles to get a "Main Spec" roll. Then a larger group to get "Off Spec" rolls: Tanks could roll on DPS gear, healers could roll on tank or DPS gear if their class could use it, non-caster DPS could roll on caster gear if their class could use it, etc. Either would act like a need roll, binding the gear to its recipient.

Then allow for a Greed/Disenchant roll for the entire raid. Simpler that way, and would act in a similar way to a Loot Master (which is the entire point).

Furthermore, I have a bone to pick with the rolls per week system. It's designed to keep players from going into Raid Finder continuously and getting lots of good epics and in doing so reducing the chances others have of getting loot. SO, why not just force passes on people who have WON loot from a particular boss, and not just having rolled period? It doesn't matter if you rolled and weren't lucky, it only matters that you rolled. Don't restrict us to one chance per boss per week, restrict us to one win per boss per week.

In the same vein, restricting loot rolls, I think it would be prudent to limit the number of need-type rolls that any one person can make throughout the raid. It's just not smart to let someone roll need on everything they can roll need on, given that there are trolls of the type out there who would.
So, will this change be implemented for random dungeons as well? If not, why?
11/23/2011 01:44 PMPosted by Bashiok
With Mists of Pandaria our expectation is that we will have the ability to detect spec, and so all of these issues go away for future raids. For Dragon Soul there will be some overlap, though, and it's important you're aware of the loot rules as due to the automated distribution system our support department will not be able to assist with any loot disputes while using Raid Finder.
including random dungeons?

You mean im going to see less ninjas in mah level 1-60instance or a shaman,druid,paladin, rolling on cloth spellpower,rolling for offspec in randoms..?

Aawwww im sooo sad! NOT.

If this include what I think in lfd/lfr instances for MoP then: THANK YOU BLIZZ! :)
11/28/2011 12:17 PMPosted by Gyla
So what if we are dps for the raids and the tanks dont roll need for the gear, does that mean us dps wouldnt be able to roll for off spec?


You are a death knight. A death knight can roll "need" on all plate armor that has no intellect on it.

If plate armor drops that has dodge or parry on it, you'll be able to roll need. If you are in a tank role, you get 100 points added to your roll. If you are in a damage-dealing role, you will just get your result.

That means that any tanks who roll "need" will win over any damage-dealers who roll "need". However, if no tank rolls "need" and if damage-dealers do roll "need", one of the damage-dealers will win it.
If only Blizz could prevent people from gemming wrong and piling up the wrong stats with reforges. I'm expecting people to look stupid in 4.3 as it is, currently a huge issue with LFD is that its allowing people into Zandalari RANDUMBS with full resilience gear on as if it were supposed to be used for PVE. That being said, Please people, read your talents clearly, read the armor proficiencies, pay attention to the socket bonuses on tier and pray it sinks in...
Warlocks and Mages - Spirit = FAIL
Shamans = We've always been screwed
DK Tanks = Good luck on that weapon without mastery, it's not for you anyways...
DPS plate = Int = FAIL, SPI = FAIL Holy dps shouldn't exist(@Pallys)
Priests = You're Lucky I need heals...
Hunters and Rogues = Mail vs Leather... Know which one you need and use it. Even Rogues can be Huntards.


PS - I <3 Druids as is.
As previously announced the Raid Finder will use an altered version of Need Before Greed that provides loot roll bonuses to those that have entered the raid in the role (tank, DPS, healing) that uses those items. Unfortunately the system is currently unable to detect spec, and so this creates some issues for classes that utilize stats that are not "common" to that role.

To help clarify which items you will or will not be able to roll on based on the role you entered the raid in, we have some basic guidelines that we've followed that should help you anticipate which items you'll receive the roll bonus on.

If you're in a raid as one of the below roles here is what you'll receive a roll bonus on:

Tank:
  • Agility Leather (for druids)
  • Strength plate with tank stats on it
  • Trinkets with tank stats
  • Trinkets with Agility (for druids)


"Tank stats" = Dodge, Parry, or Mastery


Healer:
  • Any appropriate caster gear without Hit
  • Trinkets that trigger on heals or beneficial spells


DPS:
  • Mostly everything that doesn’t have a tank stat on it
  • Spirit gear (for elemental shaman, shadow priest, and moonkin)
  • Trinkets that trigger on damaging spells/melee hits


In some cases we've been overly restrictive when flagging accessories (Petrified Fungal Heart and Signet of Grasping Mouths in particular), and we're planning to modify a couple of those items to be less restrictive before or shortly after the patch goes live.

With Mists of Pandaria our expectation is that we will have the ability to detect spec, and so all of these issues go away for future raids. For Dragon Soul there will be some overlap, though, and it's important you're aware of the loot rules as due to the automated distribution system our support department will not be able to assist with any loot disputes while using Raid Finder.


Couple quick questions.

1) Why was the DK tank able to Need+ an agility ring yesterday, with no "tank" stats?
2) Why is my Hunter able to Need+ roll on Strength gear?

It was rather annoying yesterday, watching plate wearers roll need on Agi items in two separate instances. Fortunately, my Hunter won the agility trinket that the Ret Pally was trying to need on, and I wouldn't have won the Agility ring in either case as the other Hunter in raid out rolled me (just wasn't as good a roll as the DK). Was just very annoying to see the Blizzard allows Agility and Strength users to roll Need+ on the opposite primary stat item. Especially considering how they are able to limit Intel gear based off a secondary stat.
One thing of note, raid finder seems to only be useable at max level. I have a 71 who cannot que for a raid which means the level 60, and 70 raids of previous patches are not accessable with this sadly :(
12/03/2011 12:12 AMPosted by Paleriderhel
One thing of note, raid finder seems to only be useable at max level. I have a 71 who cannot que for a raid which means the level 60, and 70 raids of previous patches are not accessable with this sadly :(


Raid Finder currently only works with Dragon Sould, the 4.3 raid. They haven't gone back to tweak the item drops and difficulty of previous content, and they probably never will.

If it isn't end-game, it isn't relevant, blah blah blah, typical Blizzard stance.

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