A Practical Guide to Holy PVE (WIP)

Paladin
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12/06/2011 06:34 AMPosted by Kahila
I guess I still just can't see it. I see our mastery as something that is great before a pull (stacking a bubble on our tank), or in PvP (stacking a bubble on the FC during RBGs), but mid-fight, I really don't feel like it makes that huge of a difference and that in order for me to make it benefit my raid, I need to overheal.


Like I said, if you feel better with Haste, go for it. If not, try the one I suggested.

Gah. I think our shammy is running Windfury instead of Wrath of Air, since we've been running a little more melee-heavy lately.

I'll definitely check that spreadsheet, thanks!


12/06/2011 09:13 AMPosted by Darksin
Practical, thank you for the guide. will give this a try.


No problem guys!
A very well researched and thought out guide. Thank you for the time and input you've put into this.

Though, I am curious, in your consumables, you've listed spirit foods but not intellect foods (or 90 point haste/crit/mastery foods for that matter) . Was this an oversight, or do you favor spirit food specifically for encounters?

Also, I highly recommend mighty rejuvenation potions as well for fights. The light boost in healing as well as the mana boost have often come in handy for me in many of the Dragon Soul encounters.

Edit: Extra kudos, we use the exact same spec for healing :D
12/06/2011 11:51 AMPosted by Mystin
Though, I am curious, in your consumables, you've listed spirit foods but not intellect foods (or 90 point haste/crit/mastery foods for that matter) . Was this an oversight, or do you favor spirit food specifically for encounters?


I think the intellect foods were already implied, but you're right. I should include them anyway.
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Woot sticky!


Grats!
I read the whole thing, and the only thing you forgot to mention is the meta cuts. Burning Shadowspirit Diamond now applies to critical heals as well, and in combination with our much lower overheal % this tier (thanks to raid-wide AoE damage, clumping, and the new Holy Radiance) and rising crit levels (I reforge out of it wherever possible and still have upwards of a 21% crit chance raid buffed), it's definitely viable.

206% crits look very delicious, especially considering we scale so poorly with max mana. I think it merits inclusion.

Also, and this is extremely important, it's Earthen Vitality not Earthwalker! (That's my way of saying, very good guide, it deserves a sticky)

I'll be testing out some different reforging when the servers come back up. I'm not sure I could live with only 800 Haste, but 12-1300 sounds like a reasonable halfway point to test.
It seems that there has been an admonition that haste is by the highest HPS stat, but that since Holy Raidiance doesn't get an extra tick we should rethink the stat weighting. I am no theory crafter, but it seems silly to shift your entire gearing strategy based on one spell, irrespective of the HPS of the others.
12/06/2011 01:33 PMPosted by Tailwags
I read the whole thing, and the only thing you forgot to mention is the meta cuts. Burning Shadowspirit Diamond now applies to critical heals as well, and in combination with our much lower overheal % this tier (thanks to raid-wide AoE damage, clumping, and the new Holy Radiance) and rising crit levels (I reforge out of it wherever possible and still have upwards of a 21% crit chance raid buffed), it's definitely viable.


Excellent point and added to reference a choice :)

12/06/2011 01:35 PMPosted by Martz
It seems that there has been an admonition that haste is by the highest HPS stat, but that since Holy Raidiance doesn't get an extra tick we should rethink the stat weighting. I am no theory crafter, but it seems silly to shift your entire gearing strategy based on one spell, irrespective of the HPS of the others.


There is no need, at all to have any casts faster than 1.8 seconds. The damage output of this expansion doesn't warrant it. Is it good? Yes. An HPS increase? Yes. Needed? Hardly.

Edit: Corrected the time, thanks Cel.
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12/06/2011 01:41 PMPosted by Practical
There is no need, at all to have any casts faster than 1.9 seconds. The damage output of this expansion doesn't warrant it. Is it good? Yes. An HPS increase? Yes. Needed? Hardly.


Dont you mean 1.8seconds?

Im assuming you mean the swing speed of the boss. Or are you getting this number from another source?
Dont you mean 1.8seconds?

Im assuming you mean the swing speed of the boss. Or are you getting this number from another source?


Thanks for the correction; I don't know why I put 1.9 seconds. Not enough coffee. Thanks for the catch.
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Perhaps not needed, but we should always be gearing with some sort of end goal in mind. Really we have three options..

Crit - Random bigger heals. It has already been conceded that this does not come often or large enough to be more healing than haste

Mastery - Shields out front of damage. To apply these you must cast a direct heal. So, unless you are overhealing, this person has already taken damage. In order to gain a larger shield you have decided to let this damage be healed slower, putting the target in danger of death.

Haste - faster heals. you are casting more heals in the same amount of time, which means the largest healing increase in healing over all because you are healing more.

You argue that this tier doesnt have large enough damage coming in to warrant a faster cast. I wonder how you know this without having been into live heroics.. But aside from that it is highly dependent on if you are tank or AoE healing, what class your tank is, and how many people are assigned to heal your target.

If you aren't running out of mana, I don't know why one would ever decide to take less healing as their gearing option. Unless someone can certifiably show that the absorbs gained from mastery outweigh the hps increase I can't get behind it.
12/06/2011 02:50 PMPosted by Martz
Perhaps not needed, but we should always be gearing with some sort of end goal in mind. Really we have three options..


There is an end goal in mind; I'm here to let you know that it's not feasible to reach.
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The goal I was alluding to was not an extra tick of holy radiance. I could care less about holy radiance. My goal was more healing.

My point is more haste is more healing. If there were a more lucrative proposition I would consider it. But you haven't stated any reasons why another stat would be better. All you have said, repeatedly, is that you don't need the haste. Perhaps you don't *need* it, but if you are going to go to the trouble of stacking something you should be asking yourself 'why this?' as well. Not just why not to stack something else.
12/06/2011 03:09 PMPosted by Martz
My point is more haste is more healing. If there were a more lucrative proposition I would consider it. But you haven't stated any reasons why another stat would be better. All you have said, repeatedly, is that you don't need the haste. Perhaps you don't *need* it, but if you are going to go to the trouble of stacking something you should be asking yourself 'why this?' as well. Not just why not to stack something else.


Well, I chose mastery because it has better HPM, and I like the shield. You can choose whatever you like.
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I can definitely get behind this. If you are healing this way because it's what you like, or you find mana to be an issue, more power to you! I definitely wasn't trying to say you needed to change what you were doing. However, when making a guide, if you can see merits in both I would definitely try to make it clear that it is an option, instead of the sole way to gear. Granted, you did mention in your original post that the secondary stats were really not all that important, but if someone were to see your guide and no other I think its worth at least mentioning or linking other options.

Thanks so much for putting the guide together. It's an awesome contribution to the community, and gets conversation rolling! I'm sorry if I came off as hostile while trying to better understand where you were coming from, but I think its worth it to have both sides of the coin shown.
12/06/2011 04:04 PMPosted by Martz
However, when making a guide, if you can see merits in both I would definitely try to make it clear that it is an option, instead of the sole way to gear.


It's a good point, I'll definitely make that section the "Haste v. Mastery" section. That seems to be a better fit.

Deal?

12/06/2011 04:04 PMPosted by Martz
I'm sorry if I came off as hostile while trying to better understand where you were coming from, but I think its worth it to have both sides of the coin shown.


No problem whatsoever, and I agree.
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Oh cool! I'm really glad that someone's taking over the holy paladin sticky. Just stopping by to say I'm not completely dead (just not hardcore raiding) and to throw in my two cents.

You noted that mastery appears to function @ 1% breakpoints. This is not true. This is Blizzard rounding.

From in game test:
Heal: 25915
Shield: 4719
Mastery Rating: 742
Listed Shield %: 18%
Actual %: 18.2095%
Predicted %: 18.2109%

Heal: 54089 (DL Crit)
Shield: 10141
Mastery Rating: 807
Listed Shield %: 18%
Actual %: 18.749%
Predicted %: 18.755%

For gemming, you noted that for yellow I recommended an int/crit gem. That's wrong and I guess I didn't fix that even after they buffed mastery :P

Another point regarding gemming. A while back, I did some math that showed at sufficient spell power, gemming for secondary stats starts beating intellect. Off the top of my head, I THINK that was around 12k spell power, but someone should recrunch those numbers. Don't quote me on that. We might be getting close to hitting that threshhold in this tier. It's probably worth gemming hybrids at this point, but not pure's, but again, don't quote me on that without recrunching the numbers.

For analysis purposes, I'd recommend separating the mana "gains" of crit and mastery from haste. I've found that at the end of 4.2, mana was less of an issue and I didn't really need to stack spirit hard. Likewise, all of my math suggested if mana was an issue, get int or spirit. Mastery and crit just don't stack up.

Regarding the whole mastery vs. haste, I'm still of the belief that stat multiplication makes the whole point moot, but I still believe that deprecation factors can resolve much of the problem. Haste is deprecated by overheal. Judgement is unaffected by haste, but with the recent changes, that doesn't deprecate haste significantly.

Mastery is deprecated by ineligibility and shields falling off. With mastery now proccing off HR, it probably is going to take the lead, but again, number crunching should be done to find typical deprecation factors.

Anyways, glad to see someone stepping up to keep this up to date and keep those green bars full!
Regarding the whole mastery vs. haste, I'm still of the belief that stat multiplication makes the whole point moot, but I still believe that deprecation factors can resolve much of the problem. Haste is deprecated by overheal. Judgement is unaffected by haste, but with the recent changes, that doesn't deprecate haste significantly.

Mastery is deprecated by ineligibility and shields falling off. With mastery now proccing off HR, it probably is going to take the lead, but again, number crunching should be done to find typical deprecation factors.


Thank you so much for your input Lylthe, It's greatly appreciated. And yeah, I'm going to add the benefits of spirit *now* so that people don't come across that I'm saying to go a specific route, I just want to list the two that are available.

And I'm glad you're around, you should try LFR. It's snazzy :)
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The Holy T13 4p bonus has been nerfed from 20% to 5% increased HR effect, just in case nobody had caught that yet.

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