A Practical Guide to Holy PVE (WIP)

Paladin
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12/09/2011 08:21 AMPosted by Kaelaren
I've tested 777 haste then all mastery and I can say i'm pleased with it. for a nights worth of healing done on Heroic Yor'sahj Illuminated healing was my top heal. Though I'd still like to do more testing, I'm pretty sure that mastery in t13 is the way to go simply because we can obtain so much of it. Well, thanks for the guide again Practical. Best wishes.


Me too. It took a little to adjust to the lower haste outside of raids, but in raids there's no real difference (We have so much haste already from JoP and SoL!). The mastery on the other hand is really noticeable!
Hey whats up folks,

First of all thank you very much Practical for this awesome guide! I really enjoyed refreshing my knowledge of holy paladins :D

*As a notice, I am not a theorycrafter of any kind and this is my first post in any forums on any subject related to world of warcraft whatsoever, so please tell me if I got something really wrong, thanks!*

I would like to share here a thought I had today while thinking about the way I want to itemize my holy paladin for this patch (patch 4.3) without making a specific thread for it. It seems to me as there is a big debate going on right now on many forums about whether paladins should *stack* haste OR mastery after the 777 obvious haste breakpoint we want to reach. I have not personally tried a mastery build but I am currently thinking about it.

The question I have is : "Is 777 haste enough to really maximize the HPS increase of mastery?"

Explanation:
Considering that haste rating is a stat that increases throughput solely by increasing the number of casts we can do in a certain time frame and that mastery is a stat that increases our throughput solely by increasing the *healing per cast* (bigger shield on about 80% of our casts), I understand it as each point of mastery is giving us more throughput increase the more haste we have (1 mastery is better at 2000 haste rating than at 777 haste because you can cast more heals that will benefit from it). Would there be another *haste breakpoint* that would make mastery more effective than more haste for throughput? Is there an optimal compromise between haste and mastery that would maximize our throughput and mana efficiency? *I understand it also depends on your playstyle*

I have no math to back my point, I would just like to share the thought process with the community. I know that point for point, haste will always be a bigger throughput increase than mastery. But I think that 777 haste might make mastery less powerful than it could be with a more significant amount of haste (2000 for example) because you can throw out less heals in the same time frame and thus resulting in less of those sweet shields. I understand that the haste breakpoint for the 5th tick of HR is probably not something most uf us will be aiming for, but is 777 haste enough to maximize the potential of mastery? Would there be another haste breakpoint higher than 777 that could result in the same HPS than a strict haste build without costing us as much mana? I gave 2000 as an example but it is just a random number, it could be 1000 or 1500.

I do not think we need to decide wether we want to *stack* haste OR mastery. I think the question is how much haste do we want before stacking mastery and this could be not only a personal matter of how comfortable you are with X amount of haste as Practical said but also a question of how much haste is good to maximize the HPS increase of mastery. It might not be a fixed amount but rather a % of your secondary stats depending on the gear accessible to you and the length of most fights in Heroic DS (also your ability to conserve your mana can be considered). I would like people's opinions on that matter. Do you think it is worth a theorycrafting look? Am I missing something about haste and mastery that makes mastery not benefit from haste?

Sry for the long post ! Hope I didnt bore everyone out :P
12/09/2011 04:24 PMPosted by Doryndoran
I know that point for point, haste will always be a bigger throughput increase than mastery.


This isn't true at all. The numbers are very close, and depending on your latency, any haste gain above a certain point is completely lost.

This is the main criticism against haste - while technically it does increase your ability to cast more spells in certain space of time, you also have to factor in your reaction speeds (eye to muscle response time), movement requirements of the fight, network latency, computer performance and so on. If you cannot pack the spells that close together to take advantage of the haste, having it is useless.

With JoP (9%), SoL (3%), 780ish haste on gear, and raid buffs, stacking more haste eventually gains nothing. This point is very subjective (hence we say "haste to taste"), but this is the point where haste's benefits drop away sharply.

For a holy paladin haste gets you three things, GCD reduction, cast time reduction, and HR ticks. If you strike cast time (for reason above), and HR ticks (already have the 4th tick, cant get the 5th), then what you are left with is GCD, which is useful but not a throughput consideration (cast time > GCD).
Let me try to clear up some misinformation here.

Before I start, I want it known that I am going to back up EVERYTHING I say with math.

Let's start with the basics.

1 crit rating = 0.005576% increased healing on average.
1 haste rating=0.0078% increased haste or 0.0078% increased HPS
1 mastery rating=0.0083668% increased shields

There should be ZERO debate about this. If anyone wants details, ask, but I'm aiming for brevity (I'm going to miss).

So the poor-man's stat priority is: MASTERY->HASTE->CRIT

Now, a reminder here. These percents are based on a completely unmodified heal. No inherent crits. No inherent haste. No inherent mastery. This is an invalid assumption. All paladins start with 8 mastery, or 12% shields. All paladins start with 3.3% crit and some crit from intellect and 5% crit raid buffed. All paladins, raid buffed should have 17.8835% haste raid buffed.

For crit, WoW takes your inherent 3.3% crit and adds intellect crit and adds rating crit for final crit. Mastery likewise adds. Haste however, multiplies.

Therefore, relative to the actual base case, crit rating and mastery rating increase by the given %, divide by (1+Base%). For example, say mastery rating adds 10% shields. We're actually seeing 10%/(1+.12) or 9.82% increased shields. The same reasoning applies to crit rating, with a base case of 3.3% Inherent + 5% raid buff (optional) + (Int/648.91)%. Because haste sources multiply, x% haste is actually x% increased HPS.

So with this in mind. For simplicity's sake. I'm going to assume a raid buffed paladin has 17.546% inherent crit (That's 6000 int, you should have a LOT more raid buffed).
Modified bonuses:
1 crit rating = 0.004744% increased healing on average.
1 haste rating = 0.0078% increased haste or 0.0078% increased HPS
1 mastery rating = 0.00747% increased shields

So MODIFIED poor man's stat weighting: HASTE->MASTERY->CRIT Notice haste and mastery swapped places.

Ok, NOW let's get into the real debate. What we've discussed here is super duper idealized. There are real game situations that ruin this analysis. What are these situations?

1) Not casting. If you're not casting, your stats are doing anything. So the proportion of thumb twiddling time reduces the effective value of all your stats. Fortunately, we can assume this applies to all stats equally (Sort of, mastery's kind of strange in this regard.) So we ignore this.

2) Overheal. This primarily affects haste and crit. I assume that on average, 50% overheal means you wasted 50% of your haste rating and 50% of your crit rating. Now, this isn't necessarily a valid assumption. It's quite reasonable to assume that crit heals have a tendency to overheal more than regular heals. Also, the exact wasted haste, is more dependent on the specific timeline of each heal over. It starts getting complicated and headachy to think about that. So I approximate that overheal is 1:1 wasted rating. I have yet to find a better model. If you have one, I will love u long time.

3) Mastery ineligibility. Protector of the Innocent does not proc mastery. Beacon does not proc mastery. Enlightened Judgements. Holy Radiance HoT does not proc mastery, though the intial heal does. Before 4.3, looking at a combat log would give you an easy, if time consuming method to calculate this ratio. Take total healing (effective+overheal) and flag what does and doesn't proc mastery. There's the ratio. However, current logs don't seem to differentiate the HR primary and HoT heal. At 4 ticks, fully utilized, the HoT accounts for 40% of HR's healing. That's a decent estimate. Temporary haste buffs can alter that ratio.

4) Wasted shields. A shield is wasted if a) it falls off after 15 seconds. b) You hit the stamina cap. You can calculate the ratio of wasted shields by determining the effective healing done by illuminated healing and divide by the total expected shields from step 3.

So the way I personally model these situations, is using depreciation factors. I reduce the effective bonus of each stat it's depreciation factor. For crit and haste, overheal. For mastery, ineligibility*wasted shielding.

THis gives a NEW set of bonuses and stat weighting. You need to run your own logs to calculate these. I unfortunately don't have 4.3 numbers on hand. In 4.2, I typically saw ~40% overheal, 50% shield eligibility, and 95% shield usage. Those numbers put haste on top.

HR changes should have bumped up shield eligibility. If someone can determine that number, we can have better 4.3 stat weightings.

Now to muddle the whole issue up. THESE STATS MULTIPLY. That means that's an optimal ratio that's NOT dump all into 1 stat. The calculation is somewhat complicated and is very character dependent. If anyone want's to see it, let me know and I'll go into it. This is why I used to recommend 1:1:1. In fact, I'd still recommend it, but go heavier on haste and mastery.
Now this part is not 100% backed by math. Maybe 50% math and 50% intuition and it's about the 777 haste cap

I'd call 777 a soft haste goal. It's not necessary, but I'd say it's pretty nice and very reasonable to aim for. It's not strictly necessary to have and I'd say you would do fine under it.

But it's nice to have for 2 reasons:

The first reason is 777 haste, raid buffed and under divine favor, adds a 5th tick. This is helpful for burst AoE healing.

The second reason is much softer. Sometimes poop hits the fan. You might get GCD locked out and need to hit a Hand of <Whatever> NOW. Specifically, 777 haste brings divine light to a 2 second cast. This seems to be a common boss swing timer, so you're less likely to get tank instagibbed. Admittedly, lag plays a bigger effect on swing timers and tanks aren't really getting insta gibbed.

So really, this 777 limit is somewhat arbitrary, but remember that whole STATS MULTIPLY? You won't go wrong going with it.
This isn't true at all. The numbers are very close, and depending on your latency, any haste gain above a certain point is completely lost.

This is the main criticism against haste - while technically it does increase your ability to cast more spells in certain space of time, you also have to factor in your reaction speeds (eye to muscle response time), movement requirements of the fight, network latency, computer performance and so on. If you cannot pack the spells that close together to take advantage of the haste, having it is useless.


I totally agree with you that human reaction times + latency will reduce the benefits you get from haste in most scenarios, thanks for pointing this out. I should have clarified my statement about haste giving a higher HPS increase than mastery. Yes the numbers are very close but considering the base stats of a holy paladin, 1 point in haste is theoretically a higher HPS increase than 1 point in mastery in a "mindlessly spamming 1 or 2 spells" situation with no latency at all although I agree there is no such situation. I think this is a generally accepted fact and this is the reason why we still see lots of great holy paladins relying mostly on haste as their "throughput secondary stat" and applying the int > SP > spirit to taste > haste > mastery/crit.


12/09/2011 10:05 PMPosted by Lylthe
Now to muddle the whole issue up. THESE STATS MULTIPLY. That means that's an optimal ratio that's NOT dump all into 1 stat. The calculation is somewhat complicated and is very character dependent. If anyone want's to see it, let me know and I'll go into it. This is why I used to recommend 1:1:1. In fact, I'd still recommend it, but go heavier on haste and mastery.


Thank you for this amazing reply backed up by math! This is close to the point I was making although I did not make any calculations as I am a lazy prick (yes I admit it <.<) and I do not know a thing about the game's calculation engine. You pointed out very clearly here that haste, mastery and crit do interact with eachother in a somewhat complicated way. In that sense, I feel that there must be an optimal combination of haste and mastery/crit (I tend to avoid crit because of the RNG but I always end up with some of it on my gears anyways) to optimize the "casts per minute AKA haste" and the "healing done per cast AKA mastery/crit". And you are right I did not consider overhealing and shield utilization at all, which are important factors to consider in real scenarios. I now see that I must make my own stat priority by studying my logs and trying different builds until I find a ratio that I feel comfortable with, which is what I will most certainly do in the next couple of weeks in 4.3. Thanks for the feedback =)
So with this in mind. For simplicity's sake. I'm going to assume a raid buffed paladin has 17.546% inherent crit (That's 6000 int, you should have a LOT more raid buffed).
Modified bonuses:
1 crit rating = 0.004744% increased healing on average.
1 haste rating = 0.0078% increased haste or 0.0078% increased HPS
1 mastery rating = 0.00747% increased shields


Its me again ... I just forgot to add this to my last post. The numbers you have here are amazing and are exactly what I needed to clarify what I meant, thank you very much Lylthe!

Assuming these numbers are correct (and I do not doubt they are), haste becomes the better HPS stat as you mentioned considering an ideal scenario (talking in theory here). The point I am bringing is the following : "1 mastery rating = 0.00747% increased shields" results in a throughput (HPS) increase depending on the number of shields (or rather the total health absorbed by those shields) you will be throwing out in a certain time frame, which depends on your haste % and crit %. So it comes back to the fact that stats multiply, as you said, and I am trying to find an optimal ratio for this patch. I know there is alot more factors to consider and I am not the one that will make the calculations, I will most likely find this number for me through experimentation (try/fail). Thank you for your your clarifications, they were useful to me!

Doryndoran
and even the Int buff from Divine Hymn.


Hymn of Hope is the one you're thinking of. :)


Great guide! I can't wait to get this toon to 85 to start using it :) this will be my 4th healer, Druid, Shaman, and Priest (main) so far, and I think I chose the one I'll like the most, for last.

Thanks again!

Vij
I forgot to mention, you need 20% raid buffed crit. That gives ~95% chance to keep conviction rolling. If I remember correctly, 25% raid buffed crit brings that to ~99% chance to keep conviction rolling. I might have some minor rounding errors here and because I'm doing this off memory :P

Note in the example I gave, we have an inherent ~17.5% crit. If I had to estimate, real raid buffed crit should be closer to ~19%. If you're missing this raid buff in your 10 man, adjust accordingly.
Since you asked:
12/10/2011 12:16 AMPosted by Doryndoran
I am trying to find an optimal ratio for this patch

If you buy my arguments about depreciation factors, here's how to find the optimal ratio.

Let R=total rating available
R=Cr crit rating + Mr mastery rating + Hr haste rating
This is your boundary condition.

Let Hf = final healing per second. I'm using HPS since that makes haste easy.
Let H0 = base healing per second. This is 0 crit, 0 shields, 0 haste. Well since haste multiples, i'm just going to fold in base haste into H0 to drop a term.

Hf = H0 * (1 + C0 + Dc*Cr/179.2/100) * (1 + M0 + Dm*(Mr/179.2)*1.5/100) * (1+Dh*Hr/128.125/100)
C0 = base crit from raid buffs, intellect and inherent 3.3%
M0 = 0.12, or 12% from inherent 8 mastery.

Dc = crit depreciation. This equals (1-Overheal). Example, 35% overheal, Dc=0.65
Dm = mastery depreciation. This equals Eligibility*Usage. Example, 60% eligibility, 95% usage, Dm=0.57
Dh = haste depreciation. This should equal Dc.


Note Hf is a 3D scalar field.

Hf = FunctionOf(Cr, Mr, Hr)

To maximize it, we find it's gradient.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradient

It's gradient is a vector field:
Gradient(Hf) = [dHf/dCr, dHf/dMr, dHf/dHr]
Each element in the vector field is the partial derivative.

To maximize Hf, we set the gradient to [0,0,0]

This gives us a 3 variable system:
0 = dHf/dCr
0 = dHf/dMr
0 = dHf/dHr

Calculus Happens:
0 = dHf/dCr = H0 * (Dc/179.2/100) * (1 + M0 + Dm*(Mr/179.2)*1.5/100) * (1+Dh*Hr/128.125/100)
0 = dHf/dMr = H0 * (1 + C0 + Dc*Cr/179.2/100) * ((Dm/179.2)*1.5/100) * (1+Dh*Hr/128.125/100)
0 = dHf/dHr = H0 * (1 + C0 + Dc*Cr/179.2/100) * (1 + M0 + Dm*(Mr/179.2)*1.5/100) * Dh/128.125/100

Yeah you can have fun with those polynomials. Note this is a nonlinear system.

A "easier" graphical solution (assumes you have something like MATLAB. There may be student licenses available. I could never ever condone bootlegging this software. Seriously.)

Take:
Hf = H0 * (1 + C0 + Dc*Cr/179.2/100) * (1 + M0 + Dm*(Mr/179.2)*1.5/100) * (1+Dh*Hr/128.125/100)

Draw a 3D chart, normalize it, and represent Hf as a color scale, say lowest is white, highest is black. Find the blackest part visually and then find the coordinates.

Someone who's taking Calculus II should double check my math. Really easy to make a mistake and maybe the solution is easier than I thought.
So I reforged all my stuff last night to get down to much less haste, and I must say it feels very awkward. Also, I've noticed most of the proponents in this thread are still primarily haste (over 1500 - 2200 for some of them). So what gives? I don't understand why you are all still forging for haste, but suggesting that others do otherwise? Is it that you don't like the "feel" of playing with less haste, even though mathmatically you don't need it?
12/10/2011 02:30 PMPosted by Jibrille
I don't understand why you are all still forging for haste, but suggesting that others do otherwise?

Me personally? I can't make my guild's main runs anymore, so I join their 10 man alt run and they want me playing ret :P Not worth gold to reforge and regem a spec I'm not really playing.

This is the reason I stopped updating the old sticky.

Me personally? I can't make my guild's main runs anymore, so I join their 10 man alt run and they want me playing ret :P Not worth gold to reforge and regem a spec I'm not really playing.


But you've obviously completed almost all the normal modes in that gear mode. Did you find you had any problems? Mana issues? I found that in a lot of fights there are plenty of mana recharge times, so even if I blew through mana with my haste, I was able to have plenty of time to recharge for predictable damage (and all these fights have very predictable damage - or at least the ones I've seen thus far - I don't have a lot of time to raid either).
Please note:
they want me playing ret

The only content I've done as holy is in LFR, which, was well painful for group related reasons, not healing related reasons.

I would predict that changing to a mastery heavy from haste heavy build would feel very weird.

In a haste build, you're able to respond to damage as it comes. In a mastery build, your reaction time goes down, and the shields are useless until the second hit. Now on tanks, this is REALLY useful.

On the raid, it's a function of how often the raid gets hit. Again, I haven't healed enough fights to give a clear indication either way.

My recommendation, either
1) Give it another week and see how you feel.
2) Download this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhYqR2TzgIgadG16TkF2UTd6V2xGRDRpXzFvUm9BYnc&authkey=CKzIi68J&hl=en_US#gid=0

Plug in your numbers from a logged fight.

Note this file was developed for 4.2. To make it valid for 4.3, update cell D11 to 1. Take the contents of cell F11 and divide it by 2. This is an estimate, which assumes that HR HoT heals for about as much as the initial heal.

The final results you want are in H18 and F24. Then run the analysis I talked about earlier.

I know this is kind of confusing. Let me know about any problems you have.
1 crit rating = 0.005576% increased healing on average.
1 haste rating=0.0078% increased haste or 0.0078% increased HPS
1 mastery rating=0.0083668% increased shields

There should be ZERO debate about this. If anyone wants details, ask, but I'm aiming for brevity (I'm going to miss).

So the poor-man's stat priority is: MASTERY->HASTE->CRIT

Your conclusion doesn't follow at all from the facts you just listed, given that you're comparing increases in healing to increases in shielding. Mastery converts to bigger shields more favorably than haste and crit convert to increased HPS, but that alone doesn't make mastery better since as you acknowledge later the shields aren't universally applied.

So with this in mind. For simplicity's sake. I'm going to assume a raid buffed paladin has 17.546% inherent crit (That's 6000 int, you should have a LOT more raid buffed).

As far as I can tell, that's incorrect. At 6000 Int you should have 6710 Int ((6000+300+90)*1.05) raidbuffed and 18.68% crit raidbuffed:
=(((0/179.28 )+(6710/648.91)+(3.336)+5)/100

1) Not casting. If you're not casting, your stats are doing anything. So the proportion of thumb twiddling time reduces the effective value of all your stats. Fortunately, we can assume this applies to all stats equally (Sort of, mastery's kind of strange in this regard.) So we ignore this.

Spirit's value is undiminished by downtime.

2) Overheal. This primarily affects haste and crit. I assume that on average, 50% overheal means you wasted 50% of your haste rating and 50% of your crit rating. Now, this isn't necessarily a valid assumption. It's quite reasonable to assume that crit heals have a tendency to overheal more than regular heals. Also, the exact wasted haste, is more dependent on the specific timeline of each heal over. It starts getting complicated and headachy to think about that. So I approximate that overheal is 1:1 wasted rating. I have yet to find a better model. If you have one, I will love u long time.

This is by far the silliest part of your argument. Why does overheal affect haste at all? If anything, haste decreases overheal in situations where OH is undesireable (most non- tank healing situations). Furthermore, 50% overheal is absolutely crazy. So not only are you assuming ridiculously unrealistic overheal, you're then taking that already unrealistic number and pretending it halves the value of haste with absolutely no basis. This completely invalidates any number crunching you do from here on out.

3) Mastery ineligibility. Protector of the Innocent does not proc mastery. Beacon does not proc mastery. Enlightened Judgements. Holy Radiance HoT does not proc mastery, though the intial heal does. Before 4.3, looking at a combat log would give you an easy, if time consuming method to calculate this ratio. Take total healing (effective+overheal) and flag what does and doesn't proc mastery. There's the ratio. However, current logs don't seem to differentiate the HR primary and HoT heal. At 4 ticks, fully utilized, the HoT accounts for 40% of HR's healing. That's a decent estimate. Temporary haste buffs can alter that ratio.

World of Logs shows the initial heal and the HoT separately. Just like overheal, there is no need to make up an imaginary eligibility number. You can look at parses to see what's actually happening.

So the way I personally model these situations, is using depreciation factors. I reduce the effective bonus of each stat it's depreciation factor. For crit and haste, overheal. For mastery, ineligibility*wasted shielding.

"When I calculate haste's value I'm going to arbitrarily halve it just because." No wonder your work positions it so poorly.

Now to muddle the whole issue up. THESE STATS MULTIPLY. That means that's an optimal ratio that's NOT dump all into 1 stat. The calculation is somewhat complicated and is very character dependent. If anyone want's to see it, let me know and I'll go into it. This is why I used to recommend 1:1:1. In fact, I'd still recommend it, but go heavier on haste and mastery.

It doesn't mean that at all. If crit increased HPS by 20 per 100 points and haste increased HPS by 200 per 100 points you wouldn't maintain any sort of ratio just because "they multiply." That would be absurd.
Finally, your method is insufficient because you remain much too abstracted. You say 1 point of haste is initially worth a .0078% increase in HPS without actually applying it to any spells. The benefits are modified by spell selection to such a degree that I really don't see the value in any system that doesn't actually perform the same spell casting calculations the game does.

I do most of my math in this spreadsheet ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArjIvkTY1iOAdGRtQi1iY01PWGJsOFR6OGpfRE54VEE ), and do much of the same things the game does. You can see the different ways haste affects different spells thanks to a myriad of mechanics you aren't considering (100% HL transfer, constant PotI, etc.).

For example, here is Divine Light from 0 secondary stats to 3000 haste, cast on a non-Beacon non-self target at 9.5% DL OH, 50.9% PotI OH, 41.4% Beacon OH and 18.6% IH OH:
Haste HPS HPM
0 24,284 6.28
100 24,473 6.28
200 24,663 6.28
300 24,852 6.28
400 25,042 6.28
500 25,231 6.28
600 25,421 6.28
700 25,610 6.28
800 25,800 6.28
900 25,989 6.28
1000 26,179 6.28
1100 26,369 6.28
1200 26,558 6.28
1300 26,748 6.28
1400 26,937 6.28
1500 27,127 6.28
1600 27,316 6.28
1700 27,506 6.28
1800 27,695 6.28
1900 27,885 6.28
2000 28,074 6.28
2100 28,264 6.28
2200 28,453 6.28
2300 28,643 6.28
2400 28,832 6.28
2500 29,022 6.28
2600 29,212 6.28
2700 29,401 6.28
2800 29,591 6.28
2900 29,780 6.28
3000 29,970 6.28
Δ/100 189.53 0.000

And here's 0 secondary stats to 3000 mastery:
Mastery HPS HPM
0 24,284 6.28
100 24,405 6.31
200 24,526 6.35
300 24,647 6.38
400 24,768 6.41
500 24,889 6.44
600 25,011 6.47
700 25,132 6.50
800 25,253 6.53
900 25,374 6.56
1000 25,495 6.60
1100 25,616 6.63
1200 25,737 6.66
1300 25,859 6.69
1400 25,980 6.72
1500 26,101 6.75
1600 26,222 6.78
1700 26,343 6.82
1800 26,464 6.85
1900 26,585 6.88
2000 26,707 6.91
2100 26,828 6.94
2200 26,949 6.97
2300 27,070 7.00
2400 27,191 7.03
2500 27,312 7.07
2600 27,433 7.10
2700 27,554 7.13
2800 27,676 7.16
2900 27,797 7.19
3000 27,918 7.22
Δ/100 121.14 0.031

These are found from using the same formulas the game does (and your thread helped a ton with SP coeffecients, so thank you), and I really don't understand why anyone would use any other method.

Unless you get into extremely weird scenarios with some very high overheal values and tons of on-Beacon targeting, nothing even approaches haste in the HPS department. If your goal is to maximize your potential throughput, the only reason to take crit or mastery is if you want the specific benefits those stats provide (HPM for both, EH for mastery and random 200% heals for crit) or if you simply enjoy using them more. I feel that the HPM gains are unnecessary, that EH is not much more valuable than regular healing this expansion, and that random 200% heals are too unreliable. Since I don't see a need for the perks of mastery and crit, I recommend haste. As a gearing strategy, I suggest taking haste/Spirit where possible, and taking a haste piece without Spirit when it's not. If you are forced to take a crit/mastery piece, I suggest reforging whichever stat is highest into haste over Spirit. Essentially, I recommend gearing identically to last expansion post-Illumination nerf.

It's my opinion that, at this point in the game, after the crit and mastery buffs, you can probably do any content in the game wearing any mix of secondary stats. However, I also strongly believe that haste continues to be the only thing you should gear for unless you specifically want something that crit and/or mastery provide and have a good reason for it.
12/10/2011 02:30 PMPosted by Jibrille
So I reforged all my stuff last night to get down to much less haste, and I must say it feels very awkward. Also, I've noticed most of the proponents in this thread are still primarily haste (over 1500 - 2200 for some of them). So what gives? I don't understand why you are all still forging for haste, but suggesting that others do otherwise? Is it that you don't like the "feel" of playing with less haste, even though mathmatically you don't need it?


It will feel awkward to start with, and if you're in a situation where you're not getting the extra haste buffs that the build is predicated on, it may even be harder to heal. The caveat is always heal however feels best to you. Most of the discussion is theoretical and many of the numbers we use are fudged as best estimates of in-game situations, but the fact is content and players, environment, and RNG all vary widely. There is no hard and fast answer, if you don't like healing with mastery, don't. If you prefer crit to haste, go with that. Unless you're hardcore progression raiding min-maxing, you'll get more performance out of a build that suits your play-style than an optimized one.

So what I'd really like to know is "how much spirit and haste should I aim for to have a reasonable haste build?" (and 777 is definitely too low) "How much haste is TOO much haste so that I don't blow through mana TOO quickly?" (3500 or whatever it is was way too high).

Is there a nice balanced build which incorporates haste, but also mastery and crit? I like the crits, I like the illuminated healing. I want a nice mix of everything >.<

I'm a 10-man raider, so all these magical buffs the 25-man raiders get -- I almost never get.
...
So what I'd really like to know is "how much spirit and haste should I aim for to have a reasonable haste build?" (and 777 is definitely too low) "How much haste is TOO much haste so that I don't blow through mana TOO quickly?" (3500 or whatever it is was way too high).

Is there a nice balanced build which incorporates haste, but also mastery and crit? I like the crits, I like the illuminated healing. I want a nice mix of everything >.<

I'm a 10-man raider, so all these magical buffs the 25-man raiders get -- I almost never get.

There is no reasonably reachable level of haste at which you should stop taking haste, if you agree that haste is our best secondary stat. To reach the fifth HR tick you have to make some painful (and questionable) sacrifices with Int and trinket choices, which is why even I would stop immediately after reaching 3493 (it's also around the 1s GCD anyway) - but most of us won't have the opportunity to worry about that.

Haste does not make you blow through mana quickly. Mana management and spell selection are a part of playing any healer. Players blow through mana, stats don't. It has been my experience so far this expansion that it is perfectly possible to do all content stacking haste and playing skillfully - the margin of danger of OOMing is not so slim that the HPM benefits of crit and mastery are likely to save you where you would otherwise have failed. Spell selection and CD usage have a much larger effect on your mana pool, such that if you are confident you can do both of those things well it's unlikely you'll have any problems that you wouldn't have had wearing any reasonable mix of stats.

In fact, while this isn't really representative of what's actually possible in-game due to itemization, a Spirit>haste>crit>mastery itemization (not exactly what I'm advocating but it's what I coded a couple months ago and it's close enough) is equivalently efficient to a mastery>crit>haste>Spirit itemization (not exactly what others are advocating, but again it's what I already have coded) once you adjust for the extra Spirit regen during casting. That is to say, if you take my ratio of stats (2534:2466:435:571), hit them with raidbuffs, and then apply the same ratio to the opposing itemization, and then scale up from 0 secondary stats to a ton of secondary stats applying every group of 100 itemization points in that ratio, Spirit/haste attains roughly equivalent HPM to mastery/crit once you account for the higher Spirit gains the first paladin gets. Now, doing this is pretty kludgy because it's not really possible to run 435 unbuffed Spirit - but a lot of paladins previously were running as low as 1600.

While I haven't done the exact math for our current discussion (this was for a crit/mastery discussion a while ago), I feel very confident in saying that as long as you're taking Spirit where you can while gearing haste, you will not be at any significant HPM or mana pool disadvantage when compared to someone taking crit and mastery.

Of course, the other side of this coin is that crit/mastery, if dedicated to minimizing Spirit, can achieve roughly comparable HPS to a haste paladin putting 40% of his secondary stats into Spirit. At that point, where HPS and HPM between the two styles are close, it comes down to the unique benefits that the stats provide. In my opinion, haste and Spirit are the better choices for numerous reasons I've mentioned numerous times elsewhere.

All that said, you mentioned that you like crit and mastery and want a mix of everything. If that's what you want to do, you should do it. I don't recommend it since I can't back it up mathematically, but it certainly won't gimp you and it won't negatively affect your raid in any significant way. You can pretty much take whatever you want to take now, even though I think haste is the best. The fun factor is probably the most important difference between our stats at this point, for most people doing most content. This isn't to say there isn't a best way to gear, but as long as you acknowledge your reasons for taking what you take and understand the pros and cons to your strategy, you're probably fine.

As for the best place to stop taking haste (if you're going to), there really isn't one. If you absolutely need some external indication, go to Lebeau's breakpoint list ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?authkey=CKPti9oE&hl=en_US&key=0AsDL8HE-bGDVdEU1S1NqMW5IbWU1dURKcmdibFFTeVE&authkey=CKPti9oE&hl=en_US&f=true&noheader=false&gid=29 ) and pick one of the DF/BL/DF+BL breakpoints that looks good to you. (Again, breakpoints are a very very small part of haste's value, but if you're casting about for some goal to reach you may as well pick one that matters in some tiny way.) 2513 for the raidbuffed Bloodlusted sixth tick is probably the most likely candidate.

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