Fl nerfed again?

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We did remove Magma Geyser from phase 4 of the Heroic Ragnaros encounter. The reasoning behind this change wasn't so much to make the fight easier, but rather because the mechanic just wasn't really playing out the way we wanted it to.


How exactly was it supposed to play out? The threat of a geyser was the only thing that made P4 challenging. Dealing with the Meteors/Dreadflame/Traps were all made significantly more dangerous by the threat of a geyser wiping the raid. Now it's basically survive p2 collect loot 5 minutes later.
Magma Geyser was likely supposed to be a mechanic small groups would rotate into, and not something you just set in a triforce formation to mitigate for the entire raid.
I believe that response honestly but why it remained that way is a bit puzzling.

If you look at the encounter from it's first kills you could see that there were problems with it, problems which mostly stemmed from P3/P4. People were using 3-4 healers and getting away with it because of how the encounter was designed, but they had to let that pass because it would require other overhauls to the encounter. I don't think anybody made solid progress with 4 meteors and without solid DPS (removing healers) you weren't going to reach the 2 meteor mark which made P4 the remote bit possible.

From the start the encounter was broken because of how little healing was actually required on account of the absurd DPS requirements to make P4 actually possible. P4 was likely designed with 3(10 man)/6(25 man) healers in mind to which people were suppose to move in and out to reset their debuffs. This however isn't possible when you under heal it like most guilds have been doing which is why people found the 'tri-force' strategy. It just caused a lot of contradictions because you couldn't do one or the other.

I always felt they allowed it because they unintentionally missed the mark on other parts of the fight (namely underestimating how little damage Rag does from P1-P3 and how it's pretty much impossible to do the fight with 4 meteors in P4).

With the release of the patch and thousands of guilds stuck on H Ragnaros what really makes the difference.

I won't defend them fully but it must be clear to a few people when bosses aren't working as intended. It was clear to me that kiting Baleroc around for 30-45 seconds wasn't intended either, but they let that pass as well. Sometimes they mess things up and honestly it would be interesting (in retrospect) to see how they originally intended encounters to be played out. Sometimes encounters just feel wrong and yet they let them pass anyways. Surely people remember the Twin Eredars in Sunwell? The way we did that fight just seemed 'wrong', but they likely let it slide solely because it became the popular way to do things and the way that was intended to do it was just flat out broken.
And when you think about it the encounter did play out to be just as difficult as they intended for it to be, but just under different circumstances.

We were likely suppose to have more healers than most run with and deal with more meteors than we currently do. P4 would be a little bit more reasonable with more healers under those circumstances TBH, but they just entirely missed the mark which would just cause a revision on a boss mechanic wise that people had already put too much time into.

My main point is they ended up making an encounter just as difficult as they planned but entirely in the wrong direction. Healing was probably suppose to be far more important that what it turned out to be. I mean really we get to P4 take a lot of damage for the first 15 seconds and then there is just tank damage for the rest of the encounter. Seems kinda broken to me!

Don't take this as me agreeing with it. I am just talking from a pure mechanics/strategy stand point. The encounter turned out great regardless of what their intentions were. While apparently unintended by Blizzard it certainly did add complexity to a phase that would otherwise be void of difficulty under the conditions of which most guilds entered (less meteors and less healers than intended).
11/30/2011 01:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
We did remove Magma Geyser from phase 4 of the Heroic Ragnaros encounter. The reasoning behind this change wasn't so much to make the fight easier, but rather because the mechanic just wasn't really playing out the way we wanted it to.


Oh, come on. No one is buying that for a second.
The mechanic wasn't working the way you wanted to, and it only took until the next raid tier to address it? And when it wasn't playing out the way you had intended, you simply cut it outright?

The nerf is one thing, it is old content after all. It's upsetting to see the fight gutted, but I really don't think anyone cares all that much now. If you want to nerf old fights, knock yourself out.

But you could at least be honest with us.
Who cares even if it was nerfed? Everybody who's anybody has already done it, right? Or do you need to continue to be able to stroke your ego by continuing to complete what is now outdated content that you've already done?

I don't understand why people get so mad when Blizzard nerfs old tier content. You already did it when it was hard, you got your achievement, you wouldn't let noobs into your pug without it, you were the man for a while...move on.
I believe in Zarhym.

Not because I believe him, but because I like being unique.
I don't think most people really care anymore about the nerfs to dated content.
I just find the approach to this particular nerf humorous. There's nerfing a fight by adjusting the numbers to make it more forgiving...and then there's this. "This was harder than hitting a practice dummy, so we took it out entirely."
11/29/2011 09:53 PMPosted by Xiic
My guild had rhyolith go friendly in p2 and become unattackable


It's the new Raid Finder replacement for actual boss encounters. Instead of requiring players to learn (oh noes) fight mechanics, all bosses are tank'n'spank until 25% health, at which point they turn into vendors and sell you their loot table.
11/30/2011 02:09 PMPosted by Practical
The reasoning behind this change wasn't so much to make the fight easier, but rather because the mechanic just wasn't really playing out the way we wanted it to.


Do you mind indulging the intent of that mechanic versus the actual outcome of it?
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Healing Forum MVP

The intent of the mechanic was indeed to require the raid to take turns cycling through the Breadths of Frost to reset their Superheated stacks, and to destroy the Breadth if too many people tried to camp in it at once. As it turned out, players discovered that a very, very precise triangle formation allowed three independent clumps to coexist inside the Breadth without triggering Geyser. All of the initial Heroic Ragnaros kills used this tactic and it became the standard way of doing the fight.

We could have increased the detection radius that triggered Geyser, but in general we try to avoid enacting changes that make an encounter more difficult once that fight has already been defeated. Doing so creates a frustrating experience for players who have to relearn something they believed they had mastered. The adjustments to the health and damage of Ragnaros and his minions in September primarily affected the difficulty of phases 1-3 of the encounter; at that time, we also decided that Magma Geyser should be removed from phase 4, but the change was not one that could be made in a straightforward way via hotfix, so it did not take effect until the 4.3 patch.

So basically, yes, it’s a nerf, but it’s because we weren’t happy with the mechanic and the only two solutions for fixing that were to either make the fight harder or to make it easier. And, as stated above, we try to avoid making fights harder once they’ve gone live.

Despite some of the insinuations in this thread, the change isn’t remotely going to let a guild that hasn’t mastered the encounter just walk in and defeat it.
@Zarhym: tyvm for clarification.

@everyone else: can you convert all that into noobspeak and enlighten us as to by what order of magnitude the encounter would've been more difficult if the said triangle was hotfixed? just for my curiosity.
@Zarhym: tyvm for clarification.

@everyone else: can you convert all that into noobspeak and enlighten us as to by what order of magnitude the encounter would've been more difficult if the said triangle was hotfixed? just for my curiosity.


It would be a much longer phase 4 due to the extra movement and in turn require even more raid dps before you hit the soft enrage with dreadflame.
11/30/2011 04:59 PMPosted by Robokapp
@everyone else: can you convert all that into noobspeak and enlighten us as to by what order of magnitude the encounter would've been more difficult if the said triangle was hotfixed? just for my curiosity.


It changes the dynamics of the fight, oddly enough most people after reading the DJ probably pictured that was the intended way for it to work.

Rag as we know it is focused around a huge dps check, minimal healers for a "manageable" amount of meteors. Rotating people around the ice patch would require +1/+2(guessing for 25) healers, giving you an extra meteor to deal with.

They could have made the other way work, you would have meteor healers etc. It still would have been on another level of difficulty than it is (was).

And as above, the extra meteor kiter+healers would give you a tougher time with the dreadflame enrage.
@Zarhym: tyvm for clarification.

@everyone else: can you convert all that into noobspeak and enlighten us as to by what order of magnitude the encounter would've been more difficult if the said triangle was hotfixed? just for my curiosity.

More raid damage would possibly necessitate more healers, most likely creating another meteor, which would be more difficult to manage with people split up outside the Breadth.

Less raid damage (consequently less healers) would imply more frequent rotations which would in turn lower raid dps, increasing the threat of Dreadflame soft enrage wipe.

More precise Dreadflame management in every situation.

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