LFR loot rules are totally broken

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Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


Why can the game determine role but not spec, I mean specs are assigned to roles within the dungeon finder. If this was a problem why wasn't that "tech" implemented with 4.3, or does it take more than 6 months (I assume things are planned out at least that much in advance, the ptr was out for 2 months and I would also assume that at least 4 months of planning/dev/programming went into 4.3) to implement a few lines of code. Like I said I fail to believe a multi-billion dollar company can not find the man power to do something that from an average player's perspective seems to be quite simple.
12/08/2011 05:04 PMPosted by Ro
If you could, get the guy who voiced Falric in HoR to say "okie dokie" instead of a simple chat message.


Make it happen, Blizz.
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


What I don't understand is that the system can already account for Agi vs Int gear. Ferals don't get the +100 bonus on Int leather. I don't see how Str vs Agi is any different.

It's hard to see how a few If/Then lines doesn't take care of it. Obviously it wouldn't because the Blizz coders are smart enough to do that. But it does seem weird. Like, If character has more Agi than Str, Then grant +100 to need roll.

But yeah, really, the solution is for the system to examine class/spec. So, like, do that. ;)
Had a Holy Priest win both helm tokens that dropped off of the same boss. That was fun for the rest of us.

Actually, as for tier tokens, it would be nice if bosses could not drop duplicate tokens at all. If 2 tokens drop, they should be different ones. Say DK/Mage/Druid/Rogue and Warrior/Hunter/Shaman. Instead of 2 DK tokens, as is frustratingly often the case.
For the most part LFR is about getting to see the content and getting some decent lewtz hehe. I notice that that it seems very easy for the same person to get two or three items. I would like to see so kinda of penalty (-20) for winning loot (stackable).

Example: Tier 13 shoulder token drops.
I roll a 180
Pally rolls a 153
Warlock rolls 130
I win yay me!!!!

Next boss: Tier 13 hand token drops
Warlock rolls a 173
Pally rolls a 113
I roll a 187 -20 =167

This makes it so you can still win without being a loot-"badword". This gives other people a chance to get gear. Just my 2 cents. This would also help with the same person getting x2 times gear on the same boss
12/08/2011 05:05 PMPosted by Knockboots
In the mean time players should just roll on items they need and stop being douches.


There's no patch for that. :(
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


I shouldn't take much to code in some limitations like that. To simply say there isn't a way isn't good enough. Given the things this company has done with gaming, it should be abundantly clear that it isn't good enough.
12/08/2011 06:14 PMPosted by Azreluna
How about a ret paladin rolling need+bonus on an int/spirit neck?


i won the roll on Will of Unbinding (Int DPS trinket from Spine) as Ret and traded it to the top DPS caster.

and if blizzard "fixes" the LFR loot system then you'll just have people complaining that the person who died to the very first "dont stand in fire" mechanic won all 4 drops.

there will never be a system that makes everyone happy in LFR, except a boring system where everything is purchased with currency.
I see a lot of "Blizzard is lazy" nonsense in this thread (and others). People! It's not lazy, LFR was a lot of work to get done.

What we're seeing here is Blizzard not waiting to release something until it's ready. As has been the case throughout Cataclysm.
What about the issue where DPS are getting the +100 roll on spirit gear, which should have obviously been marked for the healing role?

You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.
I was on my warrior and we killed Morchok, earlier tonight. The agi throwing weapon dropped and I saw we only had one rogue. I figured id need on it and if I win it, ill give it to him. Sure enough, I did and gave it to him. We talked about how flawed the stat system is for the loots bonus rolls and what not. LoL. Well, lets just say, karma had it in me tonight after I did that. Zon'ozz, I won the gloves, and Yor'sahj let me win the pants ^_^ <3
12/08/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
What about the issue where DPS are getting the +100 roll on spirit gear, which should have obviously been marked for the healing role?

You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


Why wasn't this system designed and implemented when LFD was released? Why did it take 2+ years to get to the point where it is all of a sudden an issue? You all knew this was a problem on PTR, it was reported that this could happen. Nothing was done.. Why was nothing done then? Why is content getting pushed with out the proper fixes getting implimented. This and the loot exploit for LFR ARE GLARING PROBLEMS. Yet nothing was fixed on PTR... Then why even have PTR if you are not going to iron all the bugs out before release of content. You acknowledge the issue but where is the ETA of the fix? Or is this another "We will fix Wintergrasp." issue that actually never happened and just got pushed to the side when the new xpac released. My faith in your credibility has been heavily diminished over the years. You tell us falsities on a regular basis to quell the crowd and keep us paying. I see what you do, most here don't, but I get it.

What I want to see is not acknowledgement of an issue but I want to see deadlines for the fixes. I want devs to be held accountable for their ineptitude at releasing solid content or lack of fixing problems in a timely manner. Let us point out the BOTCHED seasonal events this year. They did not even fix them while it was going on. This is just an example. I am tired of hearing the BS and want the fixes done in at timely manner. If this company can make 100's of million a month off its customers.. why can't it afford a full time staff of competent devs to work on these issues.
It's because feral can DPS as well as tank, and they use agility. Ergo, druids are flagged for agility because of feral, items are flagged as DPS because they have agility, and because Need+ is fundamentally flawed a Boomkin can win agility items, because he's role flagged as DPS and he's gear flagged for agility.


I thought it'd be a funky reason like that. After reading the Loot Rules thread though, it had me pretty confused. I would have assumed agility 2-handers were classed in the same category. Also notice now that 'Stamina' isn't marked as a tank stat for trinkets only, so hmm :\

Tank:

* Agility Leather (for druids)
* Strength plate with tank stats on it
* Trinkets with tank stats
* Trinkets with Agility (for druids)

"Tank stats" = Dodge, Parry, or Mastery
12/08/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


The biggest problem with Blizzard is they feel that its player base are great up standing citizens. While I agree that most of us are, the jerks in WoW make it difficult to play fair in a gear intensive game such as this one. I.E. would be the win trading with TB when the CP was increased so much.

The best solution is to roll on the gear you need, if you see some jerk rolling need on everything they can, just put them on ignore. At some point they will wonder why there que is 3 hours and ours is 10 minutes.

Sometimes I think Blizz needs to hire someone in their Dev department that will ask "How can I cheat this new system, or how can I be a jerk.", then take those ideas and work on closing all the loop holes.

12/08/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
What about the issue where DPS are getting the +100 roll on spirit gear, which should have obviously been marked for the healing role?

You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


Can we please get a direct response as to why Hunters and Druids can roll need on Strength items at all?

Can we please get a direct response as to why Death Knights, Paladins, and Warriors can roll need on Agility items at all?

I know there are a ton of special cases, but I keep harping on the Strength/Agility thing because there is absolutely zero gear or spec overlap between those classes.

Plate DPS/Tanks NEVER want Agility, Hunters/Druids NEVER want Strength. Why does need even light up for those classes, regardless of their role? I'm not even asking why they get Need+, I'm asking why can they even push "Need"?

Warriors can't roll need on Int/Spirit plate or caster weapons. Why does this not extend to Str/Agi items and classes?
1 hunter - 3 tokens.... Sounds like a bad movie but its trufax.
12/08/2011 06:32 PMPosted by Sylverfall
I shouldn't take much to code in some limitations like that. To simply say there isn't a way isn't good enough. Given the things this company has done with gaming, it should be abundantly clear that it isn't good enough.


It's easy to say something's easy when you're not the one doing it.

I imagine Blizzard has defined gear as cloth/leather/mail/plate and dps/tank/heals and if you match the two perimeters you get the Need bonus roll. The system was not set up with spec in mind, but they will probably hotfix it to recognize int/agi/str, which means that when they do fix it warriors will not be rolling on your agi gear, but the elemental shaman still will.

The system will not be full until MoP, and even then it may have some holes, so all you can do is hope that your raidmates will do the right thing, and be disappointed.
12/08/2011 06:41 PMPosted by Ðestructîon

You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


Why wasn't this system designed and implemented when LFD was released? Why did it take 2+ years to get to the point where it is all of a sudden an issue? You all knew this was a problem on PTR, it was reported that this could happen. Nothing was done.. Why was nothing done then? Why is content getting pushed with out the proper fixes getting implimented. This and the loot exploit for LFR ARE GLARING PROBLEMS. Yet nothing is fixed. You acknowledge the issue but where is the ETA of the fix? Or is this another "We will fix Wintergrasp." issue that actually never happened and just got pushed to the side when the new xpac released.

My faith in your credibility has been heavily diminished over the years. You tell us falsities on a regular basis to quell the crowd and keep us paying. I see what you do, most here don't but I get it. What I want to see is not acknowledgement.. I want to see deadlines for fixes. I want devs to be held accountable for their ineptitude at releasing solid content.


Sir, I reallllly think you need to take a break and stop taking this so seriously.
They are doing the best they can, take a breath and carry on with your life.

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